Styrosplines

[BCR751]

I love this idea.  I've been trying to keep the overall weight down on my layout and this looks like just the ticket to do that.  I was going to go with the Masonite splines but I like this method much better.  The only problem I'm having is how to make the cuts in the Styrofoam.  I don't have anything like the ThingX or any of the materials to make one.  I'm going to have to figure out another way to do it and that is eluding me at the moment. 

Doug

[davefoxx]

As for HCD layouts, there have indeed been concerns expressed. Dave Vollmer reported that his door was acquiring a minor sag, and some modelers reinforce their doors with braces underneath to mitigate the problem. All in all, I believe things are quite balanced in this thread.

My old HCD layout, Virginia Central, definitely had a little bit of a sag.  But that sag developed early on and never worsened over several years.  It was not severe enough to cause a problem.  Cars tended to stay where they were unless the table was rocked.  I tried to prevent (or straighten) any sag in my new HCD layout, the Seaboard Central, by carefully installing the 3/16" Masonite fascia.  That should act like the web in a girder.

Back on topic: I think Frank's styrosplines should work fine.  The point about foam not being as sound deadening as wood is probably valid, but I don't find the sound of my 2" foam on HCD to be objectionable.  I enjoy the ease of construction with foam, not to mention the portability due to the layout's resulting light weight.

I wouldn't concern myself too much about people crashing through the roadbed, if leaned on.  Worse case scenario, repairs can be made.  Adding the lattice strips may actually allow the roadbed to take a short period of abuse before breaking.

DFF

[Mike C]

 While we're on the subject of foam streingth, I'll post a picture of my first all foam layout. It was 36 x 96 and used a piece of 2" foam and a piece of 1.5" foam glued together. No wood was used anywhere, and it hung from the ceiling by 2 heavy string cords. Never had any problems with sagging and it was easily movable.....Mike

[kelticsylk]

Just a comment on the HCD's. The sag makes perfect sense, since the doors are not designed to be horizontal. The strength is all vertical. Horizontally there is nothing but some cardboard strips and the outside pine frame (except the block for the door knob). Running a 1x4 down each side would go a long way to stiffening the door. Kind of like an external L girder. You could use clear pine or whitewood, Poplar would be better, but costs more...

You would probably want 1x4's on all sides for appearances. I think it would be an easy retrofit too. Start in the middle, and working out to the ends,  push down on the door and clamp even with the reinforcements. Drill pilot holes and countersink. Phillips head wood screws might be best, but coarse thread drywall screws will work too.

By the way, let me know if you can't see the image. I'm trying Picasa and don't know if other folks will see the posted picture.

[kelticsylk]

I love this idea.  I've been trying to keep the overall weight down on my layout and this looks like just the ticket to do that.  I was going to go with the Masonite splines but I like this method much better.  The only problem I'm having is how to make the cuts in the Styrofoam.  I don't have anything like the ThingX or any of the materials to make one.  I'm going to have to figure out another way to do it and that is eluding me at the moment. 

Doug

Doug,
As I was wandering through Lowes checking out my raw materials I was thinking about that. I have that old straightedge and they probably aren't available anymore. The aluminum miter box is available at Hobby Lobby pretty cheap but still $10. My own was accidentally cut in half and so was available as scrap.

Even if they still carry those straightedges I know they cost a lot more than I paid for mine. They do sell those big 8' drywall squares. Buying one to cut some foam may not make sense unless you are also drywalling a couple rooms in you house....

You can also get 1" square aluminum tubing. 8' of it costs almost $32 so it's the same thing as the drywall square.

The key is to find some way of holding the blade steady over the 8' run so you get a clean level cut. Then again, if you go careful, as I did on my first few splines it comes out usable. It won't be dead square, but the foam is easy to shave as long as you have some sort of quide for the blade.

As I was gluing up splines tonight I was thinking it might be possible to use the hard splines as "guides" to level cut the softer foam. You cut a few lengths of blue foam as good as you can and then laminate them to the hard foam in such a way that you get a fairly even surface. It might then be possible to shave or sand the soft foam to match the lattice strips. OR you could use a straight razor or a draw knife (usually found at flea markets nowadays)...

[Lemosteam]

Frank, good idea, but the straight line across the hard foam strips would have to be dead-level.  If one strip is higher than the other in your pic, the foam would trim flat but not horizontal.  That is the only other potential error state of this method that has not been fully explored here; i.e. gluing up the strips so that they are horizontal (level) at each connection to the benchwork.

[Philip H]

While we're on the subject of foam streingth, I'll post a picture of my first all foam layout. It was 36 x 96 and used a piece of 2" foam and a piece of 1.5" foam glued together. No wood was used anywhere, and it hung from the ceiling by 2 heavy string cords. Never had any problems with sagging and it was easily movable.....Mike

DO NOT LET ED SEE THIS!  We'll never get him under control if you do.

[kelticsylk]

Frank, good idea, but the straight line across the hard foam strips would have to be dead-level.  If one strip is higher than the other in your pic, the foam would trim flat but not horizontal.  That is the only other potential error state of this method that has not been fully explored here; i.e. gluing up the strips so that they are horizontal (level) at each connection to the benchwork.

One way to accomplish this would be to assemble the spline on a flat surface before installing it. I did this yesterday with the single track section for the helper loop. The thinner cross sections can still be flex even after the glue has set. This is not practical on the wider roadbed...

Once it's formed. it's formed. There is no way to lay it out ahead of time unless it's done two splines at a time. That makes it a hassle to overlap the joints etc.

Since this morning I've been working on a new approach. If all the splines, hard and soft, are exactly the same height the solution would be far easier. Since the spline is formed on the benchwork before it is raised it will be laying on the grid. The splines would be assembled flat. I could also cover the grid with, wait for it...plywood. That would provide a table top to assemble the splines on, but kinda defeats the purpose of the open grid work spline thingie. The plywood would keep all my tools, paperwork, track sections, styrofoam and other jetsam from falling into the storage abyss beneath. Maybe it's not a bad idea at that.

Any way, back to the new twist...I was talking some of this out with my wife. She's supportive of the project and a good listener, so I bounce ideas off her. The foam lattice I'm playing around with works and it's cheaper than wood. It still cost $3.46 a section, which makes it almost as pricey as the code 55 track. I need about 30 of these things. That's over a $100. Was there something cheaper?

Looking around Lowes this morning for suitable materials it came to me that they have those laminate strips for finishing counter ends. So I wondered down that aisle. They have the strips, but now they come with wood and glue, etc and cost $10 a throw. It was about this time I looked down at the 4' x 8' sheets and the light lit up. The stuff is VERY stiff  if you stand it on end. It's also flexible. Could it be cut into strips that would serve as reinforcement for the splines?

It was $42 a sheet. I wasn't sure I wanted to spend that for an experiment. I had almost changed my mind when I almost tripped over a chipped sheet on sale for $20. I took it home.

I found ThingX wouldn't cut it. The blade flexes and I don't get a straight line. So I tried running an actual utility knife. This worked better but not well enough. BUT...It occurred to me that when I'm working with plastic I don't cut with the #11 blade of my hobby knife. Instead I flip it and use the back of the tip. It scores the plastic by removing a curl of the material. I can then snap it off. So I did the same thing with the utility knife. It works. So I use the straight edge from ThingX to guide the utility knife as I run it backwards along the laminate.

If I can successfully create hard splines from laminate the hard spline will only cast a little over a $1 each, even at $42 a sheet. If I cut the sheet into 1 1/2" strips I can get 32 of them. That's more than I think I will need. If I cut both kinds of splines the same height this would eliminate several problems. To do that I have to modify the cut width of ThingX, but I was able to find a 1/2" aluminum channel to do just that...It's currently setting up in the garage...

I'll see if I can cut it and then test the assembled spline with the weights again.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

[kalbert]

While we're on the subject of foam streingth, I'll post a picture of my first all foam layout. It was 36 x 96 and used a piece of 2" foam and a piece of 1.5" foam glued together. No wood was used anywhere, and it hung from the ceiling by 2 heavy string cords. Never had any problems with sagging and it was easily movable.....Mike

At the risk of derailing this thread again.... That's a nice looking layout there. Have you posted more info on it anywhere?

[Lemosteam]

Frank- score and snap works great on laminate.  not a finished edge, but it will work here.  I's be concerned about delamination on the finish side of the formica.  It will however make a great stiff backdrop surface for laminating images to........

[davefoxx]

Frank- score and snap works great on laminate.  not a finished edge, but it will work here.  I's be concerned about delamination on the finish side of the formica.  It will however make a great stiff backdrop surface for laminating images to........

I'd be concerned about the edge of the snapped laminate.  That stuff can be as sharp as a knife and will slice you open.  Be careful.

I think you're putting way too much thought into this now in your attempts to continue to make improvements to your idea.  You are way beyond the point of diminishing returns.  I would have stuck with the foam lattice strips.  But, maybe that's just the impatient a$$hat in many of us that just want to see you get some track laid and some trains running.   

DFF

[DKS]

I'd be concerned about the edge of the snapped laminate.  That stuff can be as sharp as a knife and will slice you open.  Be careful.

+1

I think you're putting way too much thought into this now in your attempts to continue to make improvements to your idea.  You are way beyond the point of diminishing returns.  I would have stuck with the foam lattice strips.  But, maybe that's just the impatient a$$hat in many of us that just want to see you get some track laid and some trains running.   

+1 +1

[kelticsylk]

Frank- score and snap works great on laminate.  not a finished edge, but it will work here.  I's be concerned about delamination on the finish side of the formica.  It will however make a great stiff backdrop surface for laminating images to........

Once again I missed another possibility. Since laminate has a habit of shedding its skin you would think it would have occurred to me. The "shiny side" faces out. the rough backing is glued to the splines. Since the good side will be buried under scenery, cinders and ballast I think any delamination would not affect to integrity of the roadbed.

I had to use the real utility knife because the blade in ThingX couldn't put enough pressure on the laminate to cut it. Works great on foam though. Using the ThingX straightedge worked great. As long as I paid attention to what I was doing (IE actually watching the blade) I got a straight vertical cut...

Using the back of the blade worked, but using the actual blade edge worked better. I was able to cut deeper, quicker. I got a cleaner cut even with snapping it off. Once I figured it out it went pretty fast though not as fast as blue foam. The first spline of version whatever...

Once the glue sets up the test weights come out again. It's pretty rigid vertically, more so that the foam lattice. I'm gonna try it across 2'

I'd be concerned about the edge of the snapped laminate.  That stuff can be as sharp as a knife and will slice you open.  Be careful.

I think you're putting way too much thought into this now in your attempts to continue to make improvements to your idea.  You are way beyond the point of diminishing returns.  I would have stuck with the foam lattice strips.  But, maybe that's just the impatient a$$hat in many of us that just want to see you get some track laid and some trains running.   

DFF

Dave,
How many Dave's are there here anyway? I feel outnumbered   I'm getting pretty clean cuts with few razor edges (he says crossing fingers).

It's not necessarily a case of over thinking. It's more of a budgetory constraint. The foam lattice would cost over $110. I had to recoup the money I wasted on the previous plywood/foam roadbed. I'm also not willing to pay that kind of money on foam moldings. The laminate saves us about $90 on hard splines. That's the equivalent of 20 more sections of code 55 track, something the All East consumes in vast quantities. We've got about 315 feet of track laying around here with another estimated 400 to go (I know, I couldn't believe it either).

I'm just trying (unsucessfully) to build a dream layout on an HCD budget 

Once again, thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

[DKS]

How many Dave's are there here anyway?

A lot. Too many, it seems, sometimes.

[davefoxx]

A lot. Too many, it seems, sometimes.

Why are you looking at me when you say that?  Hmm?   

Dave #273