Big Boys, Big Boys and....Big Boys!

[C855B]

My BB gets here Friday. I am of the camp that "accurate N scale sound" is an oxymoron. If it doesn't easily turn off with DCC or the remote, then the speaker gets disconnected. If the decoder glitches like my second-gen Challenger did, it gets replaced with a TCS M4, too.

[peteski]

The Tsunami doesn't use BEMF for chuff sync.  I agree that's a much better system, and why I'd like to see an after-market version of the QSI decoder used in the Walthers/LL Y3.
I didn't know the Zimo worked this way - might have to check that out for future sound installs.  But since the TSU doesn't do it, you have to match chuffs to driver rotation with some sort of speed table.  I also have had issues in the past with the TSU's motor control; the one in my Challenger occasionally "goes crazy" and won't respond correctly to throttle input, at which point I have to remove power to "reset" it.

The QSI isn't a viable after-market option.  Will check out the Zimo.

John C.

I was able to fit QSI Revolution U/W into FVM Hiawatha 4-4-0 tender.  I haven't done a full install - just test fitted it.  It would also fit into larger tenders in locos like the Big Boy or AC-12.  But Revolution is discontinued, replaced by Titan.  I think titan's dimensions are similar to Revolution so they should fit in the N scale tenders.  So, QSI decoders are available for aftermarket installs.  I'm still hoping that QSI will eventually release the mini version.

I'm relatively new to Zimo. It came factory-installed in a Fleischmann loco I bought recently (of European prototype). I have heard lots of good things about Zimo decoders and I was impressed with how well it sounds and with the motor control.  I've heard that they are more expensive than other decoders but after doing some online searches, their prices aren't all that high.  But some of their sound downloads cost extra.  They also cater to European market, so they have limited number of US-prototype sounds available.

I am in the market for the new Big Boy with Tsunami, but now I'm really disappointed that it doesn't use BEMF for chuff sync.

[jdcolombo]

I was able to fit QSI Revolution U/W into FVM Hiawatha 4-4-0 tender.  I haven't done a full install - just test fitted it.  It would also fit into larger tenders in locos like the Big Boy or AC-12.  But Revolution is discontinued, replaced by Titan.  I think titan's dimensions are similar to Revolution so they should fit in the N scale tenders.  So, QSI decoders are available for aftermarket installs.  I'm still hoping that QSI will eventually release the mini version.

I'm relatively new to Zimo. It came factory-installed in a Fleischmann loco I bought recently (of European prototype). I have heard lots of good things about Zimo decoders and I was impressed with how well it sounds and with the motor control.  I've heard that they are more expensive than other decoders but after doing some online searches, their prices aren't all that high.  But some of their sound downloads cost extra.  They also cater to European market, so they have limited number of US-prototype sounds available.

I am in the market for the new Big Boy with Tsunami, but now I'm really disappointed that it doesn't use BEMF for chuff sync.

Hmmm.  Took a look at the QSI Titan U, which is 1.8" X .68" X .26"  That would fit in a Big Boy or Challenger tender for sure, though I'm not sure how much room would be left for a speaker.  On the other hand . . . I sure do like the TSU's equalizer, especially for the tiny speakers we have to use in N.  The QSI doesn't have this, probably because it's aimed at a market where you can use speakers with some semblance of real bass.  I'll have to see how things go with using a custom speed table to match chuffs when I get my Big Boy.  The TSU does use BEMF for load information to vary the loudness of the chuffs; don't know why they couldn't implement a BEMF chuff-timing system like QSI.  I suspect I'll be happy enough with chuff timing with a custom speed table, though I admit that programming this is a royal PITA.

John C.

[peteski]

Hmmm.  Took a look at the QSI Titan U, which is 1.8" X .68" X .26"  That would fit in a Big Boy or Challenger tender for sure, though I'm not sure how much room would be left for a speaker.  On the other hand . . . I sure do like the TSU's equalizer, especially for the tiny speakers we have to use in N.  The QSI doesn't have this, probably because it's aimed at a market where you can use speakers with some semblance of real bass.  I'll have to see how things go with using a custom speed table to match chuffs when I get my Big Boy.  The TSU does use BEMF for load information to vary the loudness of the chuffs; don't know why they couldn't implement a BEMF chuff-timing system like QSI.  I suspect I'll be happy enough with chuff timing with a custom speed table, though I admit that programming this is a royal PITA.

John C.

I was hoping for Titan U/W to finally show up but it is still not available. If I buy the Titan U, my plan is to unsolder the connectors and solder the wires directly to the circuit boards (making it a home-brewed U/W).  That will reduce its thickness since the the connectors are the thickest components on the board.  That should leave plenty of room for a speaker in the centipede tenders.

As far as the equalizer goes, you are reducing (not boosting) bass frequencies. I don't see how that helps in the sound quality.  I find the sound quality of the Walthers Mallet (with 2 small round speakers and QSI decoder) quite acceptable. Maybe because I don't have a Tsunami-equipped loco for comparison.  The Zimo-equipped loco, which uses one of small Zimo rectangular speakers, also sounds pretty good to me. Of course my "acceptable" rating takes into consideration that the sound is produced by tiny speakers.

[jdcolombo]

I was hoping for Titan U/W to finally show up but it is still not available. If I buy the Titan U, my plan is to unsolder the connectors and solder the wires directly to the circuit boards (making it a home-brewed U/W).  That will reduce its thickness since the the connectors are the thickest components on the board.  That should leave plenty of room for a speaker in the centipede tenders.

As far as the equalizer goes, you are reducing (not boosting) bass frequencies. I don't see how that helps in the sound quality.  I find the sound quality of the Walthers Mallet (with 2 small round speakers and QSI decoder) quite acceptable. Maybe because I don't have a Tsunami-equipped loco for comparison.  The Zimo-equipped loco, which uses one of small Zimo rectangular speakers, also sounds pretty good to me. Of course my "acceptable" rating takes into consideration that the sound is produced by tiny speakers.

I'm reducing bass frequencies because the speakers can't reproduce them.   All speakers used in N scale installations have a practical frequency cutoff of between 250 and 500 hz (you can't rely on specifications here; the specs might say that the speaker can reproduce 100hz, but it can't do so at even a fraction of normal volume).  Real bass simply requires moving a lot of air - which is why real subwoofers use 12"-15" drivers in sealed boxes with dedicated amps.  Feeding frequencies to a speaker that are too low for the speaker's physical characteristics will (1) cause the amplifier to use power for no reason and (2) cause the speaker to distort.   Here's an example of what can be accomplished with a TSU-750 using my equalizer settings and a 16 x 35mm speaker in a separate sealed enclosure (in this case, made out of sheet lead):

Not a valid youtube URL
This install has no real bass, but you get the illusion of "big sound" from the boost in the lower mid-range region and "presence" region.  This install, by the way, uses just a TSU-750 - it's not one of my dual decoder installs.  This is what I consider "good sound" from an N-scale steam installation, and a sound that I can reproduce pretty reliably (you can watch any of the other videos on my "channel" to get a sense of how my other installs sound, even with smaller speakers - a 14 X 25mm in the GS-4 and Berks, a 15mm round in the small stuff - the 2-8-0, Mike, 0-8-0).

John C.

[sizemore]

Thats pretty dead sexy JD. I cant hear any distortion from the speakers, even though there is some distortion via the mic on the camera. Otherwise excellent work!

The S.

[Glenn Poole]

Can one of you tell me if these are like the first run when it comes to running them on DC?  Do you still have to use a separate controller which comes with the engine?

Glenn

[SkipGear]

There is no seperate controler for these. On DC they will just chuff and do the automatic sounds on DC. The first run locos didn't need the controler to run on DC, it just allowed a DC operator to access the bells and whistles.

[Glenn Poole]

There is no seperate controler for these. On DC they will just chuff and do the automatic sounds on DC. The first run locos didn't need the controler to run on DC, it just allowed a DC operator to access the bells and whistles.

I guess my experience is different than yours.  I have both the Challenger and Big Boy from the first run.  When I run them on my DC layout, I cannot change direction by changing the direction of the current using my transformer.  I have to use the separate controller that came with the engines to change direction.  It is nice to know that the new ones don't even come with a controller.

[SkipGear]

Glenn,
 What transformer are you using? Anything with pulse power tends to confuse them and you will have problems controling them. Also, it's been a while since I played with mine on DC but I think you throttle down just to about 3 volts, where the decoder is still powered but the loco is not moving, then switch the direction switch to change directions. It won't switch on the fly or at  zero volts. I may be wrong on that though, it's been a while.

[Glenn Poole]

Glenn,
 What transformer are you using? Anything with pulse power tends to confuse them and you will have problems controling them. Also, it's been a while since I played with mine on DC but I think you throttle down just to about 3 volts, where the decoder is still powered but the loco is not moving, then switch the direction switch to change directions. It won't switch on the fly or at  zero volts. I may be wrong on that though, it's been a while.

Tony
I'm using a MRC 200 Tech 4, however, I'm using a Trainmaster radio control throttle.  It appears, when I change the direction, the radio control throttle, throttles down and shuts off, then clicks as direction changes.  This then explains why the engine is not changing directions, as it is temporarily off.  I then went to my test track which has a cheaper MRC transformer hooked directly to the track, and the engine performs just as you say it will.  It will change direction when you slow down to a stop but not off, then switch the direction button. 

I don't run theses engines much as they sit in the show case, but I do like to run them once in a while.  It would be nice to just put them on the track and let it go, even it the bell and whistle doesn't work.  I like the way the Bachmann engines with the dual decoder work.

I would like to get one of these new Big Boys if the system is in fact different than the one I got.  If it really does not come with a separate controller, then I have to assume they have changed the decoder and it should work OK on DC.

[peteski]

My new Big Boy arrived today and I had a chance to fondle it for few minutes.

Here are some of my initial observations (this is my first Athearn Big Boy - I never bought any from the previous runs).

The Tsunami decoder does seem to utilize BEMF (or similar means of reading the motor speed) to control chuff timing. Simple test: Put the loco upside down in a cradle then apply power until the wheels start spinning.   Slow down the wheels with your finger (even up until you  stall the motor). The chuffs slow down as you put the pressure on the wheels and even stop when the wheels stall.  If the chuffs were independent then the chuffing would continue even with the motor stalled.

But the chuffs are way off: I'll try reprogramming it using John C's CV settings.

The wheel tread width and flange depth seem a bit oversize by today's standards. But assuming that the previous runs had the same dimensions, that would have required some serious tooling modifications.

The front tender truck has a big "oops!".  It is designed like Kato Passenger trucks (designed to pick up power from all 4 wheels). However every wheel is isolated from its half-axle (with a plastic insert), so the entire truck does not pick up power at all!

The electric wipers rubbing against all the driver wheels are very short and stiff. So the contact with the wheels is intermittent (especially when the axle shifts laterally, for example, when traversing curves).  Since so many wheels pick up power, this will probably not show up on good track-work but I still think I'll try to fix this. There is no such thing as too many reliable power pickups.

The crank pins in the driver to which the main rods connects seems to be way too long. Even with a spacer IMO, there is way too much play.

That's it for now...

[robert3985]

I've been buying/horse-trading for Athearn Big Boys for several years now.  The Tsunami equipped version initially ran much (MUCH) better than the MRC equipped ones, but the sound was anemic...especially the whistle, which could barely be heard on my home layout, much less at the shows.  I've fiddled with several CV settings and am happy with the sound now, after changing the whistle to another version available on the Tsunami.  The "Big Boy" whistle isn't right, and is nowhere close to actual recordings I've heard.  Also, whistles on Big Boys, 3900/3700 Class Challengers and FEF-3's were identical, so if you've heard the 3985 or the 844...that's what a Big Boy sounds like too.

Yes, the flanges are a bit deep, but not as deep as the first run, which received so many complaints that Athearn offered free replacements with shallower flanges.

As far as electrical pick ups are concerned, I have never had a single problem with electrical pickups on any of my BB's or Challengers.  They run smoothly over complex switches and trackwork, as well as over several dead-frog turnouts I've installed as an experiment to see if any motive power I have won't run over them (all my motive power runs great over my dead-frog turnouts).

What I see "wrong" with the present run of BB's is virtually the same as what's "wrong" with all the previous runs, minus the MRC decoder and radio control throttle. I'll list them in descending order, starting with the most glaring "wrong-ness":

(1) The articulation is so WRONG.  They (BB's and Challengers) don't move at all like the prototypes did.  I'm still attempting to solve the problem, which would be to rebuild the front engine, including its power train, where it articulates...which would also involve modifying the motor and gear train there.  Maybe one day I'll actually attempt to fix it.

(2) This relates to the first WRONG, and it's in the side-on view it's obvious that there is no connection at the front engine's cylinders to the boiler, since it swivels in the middle of the rear engine instead of being firmly attached to the boiler as is prototypical. Looks bad.

(3) The front engine swivels at the middle also, so the rear of it is not attached to the rear engine...which wouldn't work because the rear engines swivels too.

These three WRONGS make for minimal smokebox overhang on corners, which was a trademark of the Big Boys, and also makes the cab overhang, which the prototype did not do.  All of this to make these engines navigate an 11" radius.  Maybe that's good for sales, but it sure looks crappy.

(4) The round-head phillips screw head holding the boiler on in the forward stack.  YEOWW!!...this drives me gnuts!!  By replacing this round-head screw with a flat-head screw of the same thread, drilling out the rear stack and painting them ultra-flat black, it looks a whole world better than what is stock.

(5) Tender is too far away from the cab.  All of mine get the drawbar modified so they're prototypically close.  However, I'm running a 24" minimum mainline radius, so you might not want your BB tender too close to the cab if your minimum mainline radius is below 18" or so.

(6) Red dump wheels on either side of engine.  These were black until the 3985's maintenance crew started painting them red years and years after the last Big Boy dropped its fire.  Black.

(7) Your Big Boy has a Challenger rear truck.  Big Boy trailing trucks had brake cylinders on them and external lever-arms transferring the mechanical motion to the truck's brakes.  Soon, mine will have these details.

( The smokebox is the wrong color.  Big Boy smokeboxes were metallic-looking about three hours into the first run after being nicely painted.  They faded into a light, flat gray that is very similar to SP Lettering Gray.

(9) The coal load looks like crap.  Ah well...

(10) The water doors on the tender are too low.  A couple of years into their service life, all Big Boys got higher water doors, to make it easier for water-tower personnel to lower the unwieldy water column's spout into, which minimized spillage, which was especially important in the ultra cold Winter months through northern Utah, across Wyoming to Cheyenne.

...and finally (11) The wooden slats on the tender should be more easily removable as about halfway through their service life maintenance crews removed them from the prototypes.

I can't actually say that the next item is WRONG just with Athearn BB's and Challengers, since all N-scale steam has the same problem, but...the firebox on prototype steam locomotives got support from the trailing truck.  The rear trailing truck was attached in several weight-bearing ways to the chassis of the locomotive to provide support, so there wasn't a huge air-space between the top of the truck and the bottom of the firebox.  After taking photos of the FEF-3 #833 at the Ogden Union Station, and looking at photos of BB's and Challengers, I think I've come up with a way to get rid of that ugly "space" without interfering with the reliability and good running qualities of these engines. 

I'm gonna do the same general thing to the area between the top of the rear cylinders and the bottom of the boiler, which will vastly improve the looks of both BB and Challenger from side-on.  I'll post photos as I get around to doing this.

However, I love these engines!  They run smoothly, quietly and reliably.  They'll pull at least 40 cars on the level (that's all I've pulled with one) and are generally very accurate detail-wise...with a few previously discussed problems from an admitted BB extremist.

Speaking of extremist, I'm going to do a few things to my BB's to "improve" them, the first two things will be pretty easy and are (1) replacing the blobby generator on top of the boiler with a Precision Scale lost-wax part  (2) Give them an engineer and fireman...and open the windows (I don't think I've ever seen a video with BB's running with windows shut).

Next, I'm going to figure out a way to get rid of that damned screw in the front stack, then open up the vent door on top of the cab, and then...skin off the grabs on the sandboxes, and replace 'em with separate grabs.  The bell gets painted black also...and then weathering.  I think that's about it.

As for myself, I am extremely happy that Athearn is re-releasing this run.  Now, if they'd only make some FEF-3's!! 

[Leggy]

Bob, all N scale steam (apart from some brass) has both driver sets on articulateds swivel like a diesel locomotive to allow them to traverse tighter turns. Just a sales thing....

[peteski]

Bob, thanks for all that info.  I'm no Big Boy (or even UP) expert - I just think that is a cool model I wanted to own.  I only played with it for about 30 minutes (seeing it for the first time ever) and you obviously spend some serious time evaluating this and the previous runs of these models.   I also own a Big Boy by Sakatsu. That one is probably more correct than the Athearn model. I do remember that its front engine is articulated on the rear of the engine.

As far as the electric pickup goes, I subscribe to Max's school of thought which is that there is no such thing as to much pickup. I can also clearly see that the wipers make a poor contact and I'll try to fix that.

Funny how the screw in the stack makes you crazy. I was thinking of just painting the inside of both stacks with flat black. That (in the absence of smoke) will look more realistic and will make the screw less obvious.