Pacific Fruit Express, location on passenger train

[CoalPorter]

You might be interested in the massive PFE book that
Signature Press put out a few years ago. If it does not
have info on this, then it probably doesn't exist.

I would love to see a photo of general PFE reefers running in a passenge train. Seems like opposite ends
of the railroad spectrum? Back then, the p-trains would stop at towns all over the place, while perishable fruit loads
only had one destination and need to get there fast.

[CoalPorter]

I have seen some modelers run a mixed train of PFE reefers and
the black SP overnight box cars - looks cool with a 60 car train and cab-forward loco !

[FrankCampagna]

Thanks for this informative discussion. I'm putting together a NYC mail and express train, and this adds to the available cars. Wish I could find some of those MT express cars.

[hpwrick]

During the strawberry season, Santa Fe and REA would add reefers to the front end of the Fast Mail, Chief and the Grand Canyon just to name a few.    Depending on the shipping destination these cars would hot foot it eastbound to Albuquerque, Denver, Kansas City and points east.   

The Santa Fe also ran a top priority Fast Fruit or Produce Express that had priority over all other trains including the Fast Mail and the Super Chief.   The Super  was known to take a siding, to let it by.    You can bet PFE ran reefers in that train.

SP was also known to run loads of strawberries and other perishables in  PFE and REA Reefers on the front of their mail train and Owl, from L.A. to San Francisco, Sacramento, and points north...ahh... or west as they referred to it.

Every railroad out there ran versions of the same types of trains.   SP's, Monterey's  Del Monte, ran fresh fish from Monterey to San Francisco's fish markets.     Out of Salinas, CA.,  the SP and out of the San Joaquin Valley, Fresno, Ca.,  AT&SF both railroads ran high priority perishable freight trains to points east.

Lot's of reasons to have PFE reefers operating on a train layout.

[hpwrick]

Yeah, it's me again.

Here is one more resource from Jack Whitmeyer's collection.    Look down the list and you will find a number of older PFE reefers.  Click on each car and up will come a picture.    I think you will be surprised, or not, at what you find there.

http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/spr.html

For those non-believers here is the UP, LTD note what's up front behind the locomotives (Double headed stoves, which is a treat in and of itself):  http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/upa35.jpg

I be done.

[randgust]

Hey Rick, yeah, I hang out here too.

As many shots as I've seen of all the oddball express reefers, baggage cars, etc. that got hung in the 'Fast Mail', it just never stuck on me that yeah, there's ice hatches on those express reefers.    And you're telling me what certainly makes sense, that yeah, they'd cut them off the front an ice them if necessary, during station stops.   

The entire ATSF Fast Mail story still fascinates me.  One of the original 2500-series rider coaches is down at the Texas State Railroad, we did an historic research project on it for the car restoration and upgrade.   Those cars lasted because they got used, right up to the end of pre-Amtrak days, as heavyweights, yet no application of air conditioning on any of them.  So that rider coach experience on the Fast Mail, yeah, that was hard class, to quote the Chinese.   Then add in the photos I've seen of NYC baggage cars running cross-country, now this, yeah, that train just doesn't get enough respect from modelers.   Oh, and the express 50' boxcars with the additional air and steam lines, yeah, ATSF did that as well, otherwise a conventional 50' box.

Another thing lately that's floored me has been the realization just how many WOOD REEFERS were running into the 1970's.   Joe McMillan's arizona book has an incredible shot of a GN yellow Western Fruit Express reefer, wood, ice, set out and on fire near Needles because the brake shoe spark guards dropped off, back in 1971.   So looking at some of the stuff in the Fast Mail up to Amtrak, I suppose it's possible to even see that.

[hpwrick]

Hey Randqust,   

Good to hear from you and see you are still hard at it.     

Starting with the end of World War ll, to continue  through out the 60's and into the 70's the railroads were all about survival and mainteance (most deferred).     The goal was to use anything and everything they had to turn a profit.    Maintanence shops here in CA., saw all kinds of rebuilds, including those reefers that started out as wood sheathed sidings with sheet metal thrown on them, new trucks and couplers, air brake lines including refurbished interiors and automated cooling systems that would open and close the hatches....all  in hopes of preserving the cars and keep them running longer.     The  Santa Fe shops in San Bernardino didn't stop untill they were closed down and the work sent to Kansas City.     Things started to turn around as they entered the late 70's into the 80's.   Never mind what the mega mergers brought to the table.    Darn them.

Standing by to rattle cages and upset the concept and perception of norm.        LOL   

[Cajonpassfan]

The Santa Fe also ran a top priority Fast Fruit or Produce Express that had priority over all other trains including the Fast Mail and the Super Chief.   The Super  was known to take a siding, to let it by.    You can bet PFE ran reefers in that train.

Umm, Rick, sorry, but this just doesn't sound right; certainly not during the 30's, 40's and 50's, nothing got in the way of the Super Chief, and if something did, the company president would be notified and there'd be hell to pay. What sources are you using or is this an urban legend?
I also question the reference to express reefers on the Chief, again not during the "classic" era. All the head end cars on the Santa Fe (baggage, mail, storage mail, express, express reefers, etc.) travelled in secondary trains (Not the Chief, Super, or El Cap) or in dedicated trains such as the Fast Mail or they could run as a section of any train on that train's schedule. I admit I  don't know about the sixties, weird stuff was happening by then leading to the demise of the privately run passenger train. If there were "fruit extras" with priority over the Super, I'd sure like to learn about them.
Regards, Otto K.

[strummer]

You may or may not find this helpful.    Scroll down through the information shared and you will find some REA reefers mixed in to the passenger consist.    Presented by Jim Landcaster.   You may want to read the narrative as some interesting things about passenger train operations are mentioned.

http://coastdaylight.com/sb/san_berdoo_64.html

I hope that helps.

Great link with nice photos...

Mark in Oregon

[hpwrick]

Umm, Rick, sorry, but this just doesn't sound right; certainly not during the 30's, 40's and 50's, nothing got in the way of the Super Chief, and if something did, the company president would be notified and there'd be hell to pay. What sources are you using or is this an urban legend?
I also question the reference to express reefers on the Chief, again not during the "classic" era. All the head end cars on the Santa Fe (baggage, mail, storage mail, express, express reefers, etc.) travelled in secondary trains (Not the Chief, Super, or El Cap) or in dedicated trains such as the Fast Mail or they could run as a section of any train on that train's schedule. I admit I  don't know about the sixties, weird stuff was happening by then leading to the demise of the privately run passenger train. If there were "fruit extras" with priority over the Super, I'd sure like to learn about them.
Regards, Otto K.

Otto, good to hear from you.

Disclaimer:  If I wrote Super Chief, had REA reefers tied onto it... well that would be an error.    My comments are directed toward the mid 40's to the 50's and 60's era.    Santa Fe tried a number of ways to justify and pay for the dieing demand for passenger trains.    See resources, Jim Landcaster, Train Time San Bearnardino, Ca.  http://coastdaylight.com/sb/san_berdoo_64.html

I agree with you in that the early El Cap, Super Chief and Chief never carried anything but Santa Fe Passenger train equipment.  It wasn't until later and trains were combined you began to see some funky stuff.    I might add here Strawberries typically there wasn't enough to ship in or with the Fast Fruit or Pershiable trains.    REA took over those shipments and with Santa Fe's cooperation placed them on the fastest trains heading east and that be passenger trains.

No urban legend.   Story after story as told by many a Santa Fe Rail, and I if I recall correctly Chard Walker and I discussed this on a few occasions.   All stories tell of the one freight train that had top priority and ran Class 1.  As I heard it explained, the same status as the Fast Mail.    You do understand this is dependant on the pershiables shipped.    The Produce or Fast Fruit Express, it would typically leave the San Joaquin Valley, Ca.,  and with the exception of  servicing at ice decks, set outs, or locomotives swapped out and tied to the front, it ran top billing.

I've heard stories from Santa Fe Rails, where the Super would come in behind the Fruit Express, slowed down or stopped,  perhaps due to a hot box or some related problem and would request of the DS  clearance and/ or orders would be waiting giving clearance to go around.    Seldom, was this ignored and the Super and/or anyother passenger train would be routed around the slow poke.    Often times the stops for the Fruit Express, would be coordinated with the stops of the passenger trains, passing at station.   After all they would spend considerable time running through the ice deck, changing locomotives and re-assembling the train (I think I'ma repeating myself...grin).  Once out on the tracks it would either lead the crack passenger trains or fall in behind them.   On the flip side,  for example the Grand Canyon, (the milk train)when it was in station and the high priority perishable was in behind, it would be allowed to pass the GC, at stop in station.

Yep, I agree there was one presidente that put out such orders.    More of a public relations thing as he knew the pershiables had to get through.    Santa Fe was desperately trying to keep thier clientele as Pan Am and other airlines was sheep stealing.  Never mind Eisenhower's, freewaysand what that was doing for the trucking business.    Trucking eventually killed the Fruit Express Ie., Salinas, Ca. and the special pershiable trains that used to leave that region...gone.

There are articles where it is mentioned in both the Santa Fe periodicals and our illustrious railfan wig wags.    Trains carried a story about a  Westbound Chief waiting in a siding for the Fruit Express to clear and then ordered to wait for the Eastbound Chief.   The Fast Mail having already gone through earlier.  The switchman must have misread the whistles as he threw the switch to soon and both Chiefs went head to head....in one of the worst accidents on the Santa Fe.

I tried to find a picture that a friend posted of the switch crew tieing a REA Reefer onto the front end of the Chief (not Super Chief) headed... confusingly enough West.    I questioned that wondering why?... it would head west.    Unless it was the San Francisco Chief, to deliver strawberries to Oakland.    That makes better sense.

The history of the Santa Fe, as I know it comes from a family of Rails that worked it.    They tell of things that most of us know little about.    Can I confirm it?  In most cases...NO!   Do I trust them?   Yes...to a point.    I've been able to back-up the information I've shared here.       

Knowing you, I'ma surprised you weren't aware of this.   You have Santa Fe down to a science and in many cases your factual information is better then I.    As always, good to visit with you!   

[Cajonpassfan]

Rick, thanks for the response and the compliment.
I'm still confused; are you talking about the famous GFX trains (Green Fruit Express) or some other "fast fruit"?
Because the GFX trains were generally all forty foot reefers, with some other fast freight sometimes thrown in for tonnage capacity. But they were freight trains running as extras. The fifty foot express reefers I thought we were talking about had trainline for train heating and were generally run in mail and secondary passenger trains or as sections thereof. Again, I claim to know nothing about the sixties...for all I know they put gondolas on the Superchief by then...
BTW, I can see an express reefer on a westbound passenger train, loaded with magazines or such for the west coast. And the Chief on Chief head on collision due to a fruit train getting preference? Lets just say I'm skeptical... The only head on involving the Chief I know of is the Springer NM collision where a confused fireman lined the siding switch into a mail train waiting for it...
All good fun, Otto

[hpwrick]

Rick, thanks for the response and the compliment.
I'm still confused; are you talking about the famous GFX trains (Green Fruit Express) or some other "fast fruit"?
Because the GFX trains were generally all forty foot reefers, with some other fast freight sometimes thrown in for tonnage capacity. But they were freight trains running as extras. The fifty foot express reefers I thought we were talking about had trainline for train heating and were generally run in mail and secondary passenger trains or as sections thereof. Again, I claim to know nothing about the sixties...for all I know they put gondolas on the Superchief by then...
BTW, I can see an express reefer on a westbound passenger train, loaded with magazines or such for the west coast. And the Chief on Chief head on collision due to a fruit train getting preference? Lets just say I'm skeptical... The only head on involving the Chief I know of is the Springer NM collision where a confused fireman lined the siding switch into a mail train waiting for it...
All good fun, Otto

Hi Otto,

GFX may indeed be the official name of the Fruit or Perishable Express trains but that's not how I heard it.    The 50 ft reefers with steam hoses, high speed trucks  would indeed be dedicated to riding AT&SF passenger trains.    Not all 50 foot reefers were classed with that privelege.   

Gondola's...LOL.   Ok, I had that coming.    During the late 50's through the 60's box cars and flat cars...flexi-van... (what could be considered the first contatiner cars), showed up on the mail trains and the Grand Canyon.

Did you get a chance to look at James Landcasters documentation?     Who knows... you might find that gondola... ...gosh!  I don't think so.

You may be correct about them running as extra's.    Here me out.     I did see a reefer mix of 40' and 50' reefers blow through Barstow, running through on the passenger tracks headed for icing in Needles, Ca.    On the tail end was a heavy weight baggage car and an observation car.     I was told it was a Santa Fe official riding on the tail end.      It was running either as an extra to the mail train or was the lead train.    Flags on board but I don't recall the colors.     This is when I was told about the fast freights running as priority trains.    I was a youngster at the time perhaps 12 years old.     My family would talk about these reefer blocks but never in a classification, less then the equivalent of the mail trains.   Exception being:  Potato blocks of reefers went through as standard freight and there may have been other produce treated the same way.     

Later talking to Chard Walker, he could not confirm the classification of these trains, as none of these trains ever crested the Summit, Ca of Cajon Pass, Ca.    Later after talking to other cronies he was able to confirm that moving pershiables over the Santa Fe, saw many a reefer block, moving through as priority trains.    Also,  confirming  statements made by my uncle who worked the ice deck.   

I think this is what led to the Super C, in later years.

Regarding the train accident, the accident was officially blamed on the brakeman throwing the switch prior to the eastbound Chief's (corrected it originally read westbound).   The eastbound Chief's arriving and having had a chance to clear.  The westbound Chief, in the hole... both the fireman and engineer died.     Yes, the eastbound fast produce train was mentioned in the article as having cleared behind the eastbound mail train.    Sounds like it went through as an extra but the article didn't affirm that.

Train load of magazines...ahh...where did that come from?   Grin!   I could see the fast mail carrying such either westbound or eastbound.    Just depends on the point of origin as to where the printers for the various wig wags, shipped from.

Knowing you as well as I do, we've agreed to disagree in the past without looseing respect for each other.    Don't give this a second thought.   

Just passing on perceptions of stories told to  a young man growing up in a family of Rails.   Leaving you to arrive at your own conclusion.  You need to know, yes, all in fun but not meaning to be misleading or pull your leg with a good one.   No sir!
   

[Cajonpassfan]

Ah, now we're talking, all in fun with no disrespect or offense meant or taken. Yes sir!
Kind regards, Otto

[Puddington]

I will now call to order the ATSF Historical Society Meeting (online version) for Friday January 11th, 2013.... would the secretary please call the roll.............. 

Now this is what Railwire is... a place for modelers to get the "skinny" first hand.....nice to see you gentlemen adding to the collective knowledge !

[Cajonpassfan]

Yea, Pud, like you don't get all excited about all that Canadian beaver tail stuff, eh? Of course you do not NEED refrigerated cars up your way...? 
Love your work, all good fun!
Otto K.