Pennsy P70 coaches and variations

[bbussey]

That is not a real PRR car.  Like all of the other heavyweight cars on the North Shore it is only painted for the PRR but is not actually a former PRR car.

The incorrect trucks are a giveaway also.

[Alwyn Cutmore]

Josh,

They are shown on the original plans and they were real trucks. We even had a very similar truck here in Australia.  I have a plan somewhere in my files from  a early MR with the PBM 70 and P70 Cars. I have been looking for it but my folders have grown.

The list of remaining P70 cars show that in 1954 there were 604 and in 1955 there were 314. It does not state where they were located or in what roof configuration they were. The search goes on. This does not worry me because I model in the period 1930 to death

I am of the opinion that if the PRR had it I would like one. I would really love to have a model of the Pennsylvania Limited "The Yellow Kid". There are a number of references around but not a lot in one place. I have a fair amount of info on it but as I do not own the copyright I wont publish it.

Dave

I have a folder on a modernised PB70F using NKP sides. It is based on a HO Model. I will send you a copy. 

Regards

Al

[chicken45]

What's the actual story on how/why Lima chose to produce such a rare car?

[Bob Bufkin]

I could swear that Lima did the same car without the end windows.  I had a Southen car at one time which was exactly the same but I don't think had the end windoes.

[bbussey]

What's the actual story on how/why Lima chose to produce such a rare car?

Most likely because they wanted to do a combine and the plans were readily available from PRR/PC at the time.  Even so, they cheated and based all the heavyweight models on the straight P70 (which is roughly 3½ feet too long for an actual PBM70) in order to have common parts and lower the tooling costs.  Most of the N scale models from the early years were based on that premise.  All of the AHM cars were based on contemporary prototypes of the time period (such as the 3500pd "Flexi-Flo" and the PRR/PC G36M govered gon) which ended up being esoteric prototypes in the long run.

[Alwyn Cutmore]

John,

Have a read of this link. It tells a lot even about the Bachmann Shorties

http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/

Regards

Al

[Alwyn Cutmore]

David,

The short answer is yes. The reference I made to in my PM about this book:

"Pennsylvania Railroad, Passenger Train Consists and Car - 1953 Volume One . East-West Trains" will confirm it.

The answer I got from Doug Nelson confirmed what I though to be true. This is his reply

The simple answer to your question is almost certainly yes. Basic P70
coaches (and PB70 cars) would typically show up in lesser grade passenger
trains particularly during high travel periods and Sundays. This can be
seen in the "Make up of Trains" books that guided the assembly of trains at
Sunnyside Yard. P70 and PB70 cars were also used as rider coaches on mail
and express trains.

Understand however that clerestory roof cars were not limited to basic P70
cars. Betterment P70s including P70R, P70FR, and P70FBR had both rounded
and clerestory roofs, so P70s with clerestory roofs could be seen on many
trains in the PRR Middle Division throughout most of the 1950s. Their
numbers did decline over the years, but the passenger fleet was stretched
thin during peak periods and Sundays when these cars were most often seen.

A good source for this information can be found in "Pennsylvania Railroad
Passenger Trains, Consists and Cars - 1952" by Harry Stegmaier.

Doug Nelson

I hope that answers you first question. I will now look further into the PBM cars.

I will also confirm with the numbers of the trains they were used in.

It is an old Military thing "If you do not know find out" but confirm.

Regards

Al

[Dave V]

Al, thanks for that and the e-mail...  All very informative.

[Alwyn Cutmore]

Dave,

My pleasure and that is only a bit of it.

Regards

Al

[jmlaboda]

Can't help but wonder if Archer rivets could greatly improve the look of these cars even beyond what you have already done with them.  The models look good and it proves that they yet could be the basis of some interesting models!!!  I can't help but wonder if the four-tier MT steps would be right for the model, or if the three-tier GMM steps should be used.  While the GMM steps are more work even some of the MT Pullman cars should have the 3-tier steps for the cars to be more accurate.

Some of these cars later received streamline car trucks...
http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-co1639ags.jpg

[bbussey]

... And by the way, does anyone know of a good way to attach Kato trucks to not-Kato cars?

I forgot - you also can use the old shouldered bolster screws from the Atlas/RivaRossi heavyweights to secure Kato trucks.  Just add a bolster mount similar to the Atlas/RivaRossi cars, then drill and tap for the screws.  I know these screws work because I extensively modified a RivaRossi PRR smoothside roomette and swapped in Kato trucks.

If you have newer Kato trucks that are of the "snap-in" variety, simply remove the little locking nubs on the snap-in "fingers" and the trucks will work perfectly on older Kato cars with the original style screw mounts, or with the RivarRossi bolster screws.

[chicken45]

Hey Jerry! Thanks for the kind words.
I actually did use Archer rivets on this car, but only on the areas I plated over the windows. You can see three columns of them just to the right of the porthole window and on the same place on the other side. It is a double column, and then a single column. I should also note that the prototype has triple column of rivets on those strips, but the molded on rivets is only a double column. I stuck with the double row for consistency.



If time, sanity, and most importantly, money were not an issue, I'd sand the molded on rivet detail down and go Archer all the way. A sheet of rivets from them is what...$15? And I don't even think one sheet will do an entire car. But the option is there, and the car would look fantastic for it!

If I do burn an entire sheet on one car, it'll be on a B60b haha!

[Alwyn Cutmore]

Josh and all.

I try to use what has gone before me which includes photos, plans and other models and any other resource I can find. I have found the models from Eastern Car Works to be reasonable accurate and are a great 3D reference to have beside me. As well as ECW I also use Branchlines Kits to use to better understand the underfloor detail of the Pullmans. In doing this looked at the porthole window on your model Josh and it looks a little large. Yet when I look at the photo here

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=560837

It does not look too bad at all. Yet when I measure up the windows on the ECW model they scale out at 1'9" with a 1" grommet around the window.

Does anyone know what the real measurements of these windows are.

Also when you have a look at this coach you can see that it has modern trucks similar to Kato under it.

Regards

Al

[chicken45]

Yeah I pretty much eyeballed that because I couldn't find measurements. I observed that the Diameter of the round window is roughly the height and width of the square windows. It may still be oversized a little bit. As far as the truck to go, the Kato ones are pretty close. I read somewhere that they were too "beefy" and were better suited to the diners and other heavy duty passenger cars. I know they put these on a few Z class business cars as well.
But to my eye, the difference was negligible.

[Bob Bufkin]

I am taking a wild guess here but the round windows are probably the same size as the ones on the Hell Gate Models B60b.