Shapeways FM switchers: Cleaning FUD

[Kisatchie]

...I guess I'll just keep making stupid, uninformed posts until I get the answers I'm looking for...

Hmm... Hey, that's what
Kiz does...

[peteski]

More comments like what?  That I don't think you have to dissolve the wax to get a clean surface?  How'd that turn out?

Have you ever tried to pain a candle using either water solvent based (like PollyScale) or organic solvent based (like Floquil or Scalecoat) paint?  How is the coverage? How well does that pain adhere to wax?

Why is it so hard to believe that a solvent that effects the transparency, could be effecting the surface of what's soaking in it?  And it may not be a direct effect, but rather something that happens when the wax gets dissolved or removed.

You don't seem to grasp the fact that the he white color is caused by roughness of the surface on the transparent resin. (not by the wax solvents affecting the resin surface).  The residual wax smooths the rough areas making them look transparent.  This is similar to what happens to a piece of frosted glass which looks white in color.   If you wet the frosted surface (using water, Vaseline, oil, wax or any substance which will fill the microscopic pits in the glass) the frosted glass will become transparent (until you remove whatever substance you used and dry the glass surface).  Then the glass looks white again.

I'm sorry I don't have a chemistry degree like you and everyone else who has this all figured out.  I guess I'll just keep making stupid, uninformed posts until I get the answers I'm looking for.

And to answer your other question, I've started designing and printing Rapid Prototype parts since before Shapeways was around.  I've cleaned enough SW parts to have the opinion that Bestine (I've also used Bleche White which seems to work similarly) may not be the best option.  Or at least that it's worth it to spend some time trying other things.

I'm out to get a water pick tomorrow and I need to follow up with the WD40 when I get a larger part.

Jason

Remember that WD40 is a lubricant suspended in solvent (the solvent will evaporate but the lubricant will stay behind). So I suspect it will make the frosted areas looks transparent. But that also means that the surface is not really ready for paint.  Have you ever tried to paint something coated with WD40? 

[towl1996]

I'm out to get a water pick tomorrow...
[/quote]

I sense an Oral B stock option play coming, based on the smells experienced at trains shows, I'd say 99.99% of model railroaders do not own the oral prophylaxis device. 

[mmyers05]

My biggest gripe with Shapeways is, as a designer, once a model is proven "printable" there must be a tag for all future orders.  In these past few months, I've had nearly all my designs rejected.  All of them having printed successfully dozens of times before.  Furthermore, they are being rejected based on terms outside of the material guidelines.  If .3mm is defined as the minimum wall thickness, why is a .45mm thick wall cause for rejection?  This is a step backwards, not forwards.  However that is maybe a discussion for another time and place. :/

Yes, I couldn't have said it better myself...

So far I have yet to see any paint job deteriorate over time (aside from the growing desire to re-paint the ugly detail spots on the Dry Bulk Trailer).

I cleaned my FUD models for a while using only hot water, brushes and an ultrasonic cleaner (I also had no issues with paint adhesion etc). Unfortunately, a few months later I decided to leave a handful of them in a box in the back of my car on a hot summer day. The next time I looked at them, to my surprise, they had uniformly developed what I can only describe as a 'tinker-bell sparkles' look. There was no visible distortion, melting or smoothing of the shells; instead it looked to me like tiny beads of wax had pushed themselves up through microscopic holes in the paint. Nothing had peeled mind you, but it certainly was enough to scare me into trying Bestine. 

I'm not saying that this would present a problem for anyone who isn't dumb enough to 'cook' their trains like I was, but it did make me wonder about the long term integrity of a similar painted finish. That said, your technique might be more effective than mine was (although the 'cleaned' models did look similar).

[Sokramiketes]

Have you ever tried to pain a candle using either water solvent based (like PollyScale) or organic solvent based (like Floquil or Scalecoat) paint?  How is the coverage? How well does that pain adhere to wax?

Except I've painted FUD models that are still translucent and the paint didn't bead, leading me to believe it's not wax...

You don't seem to grasp the fact that the he white color is caused by roughness of the surface on the transparent resin. (not by the wax solvents affecting the resin surface).  The residual wax smooths the rough areas making them look transparent.  This is similar to what happens to a piece of frosted glass which looks white in color.   If you wet the frosted surface (using water, Vaseline, oil, wax or any substance which will fill the microscopic pits in the glass) the frosted glass will become transparent (until you remove whatever substance you used and dry the glass surface).  Then the glass looks white again.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that the surface roughness is causing the white color.  What is being argued is that Bestine is unduly affecting the surface finish and making it rougher than other less caustic, but still effective cleaning methods.

Remember that WD40 is a lubricant suspended in solvent (the solvent will evaporate but the lubricant will stay behind). So I suspect it will make the frosted areas looks transparent. But that also means that the surface is not really ready for paint.  Have you ever tried to paint something coated with WD40? 

WD40 is not a lubricant. This is a common misconception. Have you ever tried to paint something sprayed with WD40 and allowed to dry? 

[wcfn100]

Have you ever tried to pain a candle using either water solvent based (like PollyScale) or organic solvent based (like Floquil or Scalecoat) paint?  How is the coverage? How well does that pain adhere to wax?

The point was that Mark showed us that you don't have to soak the model and dissolve the wax to get a clean surface.  Something that wouldn't have happened had I not made my 'comments'.

You don't seem to grasp the fact that the he white color is caused by roughness of the surface on the transparent resin. (not by the wax solvents affecting the resin surface).

Right, and no one has explained why it can't be something else.

Remember that WD40 is a lubricant suspended in solvent (the solvent will evaporate but the lubricant will stay behind).

WD40 is a rust and corrosion preventer that can be used as a lubricant as well as many other uses including a cleaner. 

Jason

[bbussey]

The point was that Mark showed us that you don't have to soak the model and dissolve the wax to get a clean surface.  Something that wouldn't have happened had I not made my 'comments'...

Except that it's not clean, as mmyers05 pointed out.



This cellphone pic, while not the greatest, shows a close-up of a G32C pilot body in XHD after a 24-hour Bestine soak.  You can see the surface is more than smooth enough even though it is opaque (i.e. wax-free) and the contractor inadvertently changed the orientation by 90 degrees.  The MTL coupler pocket detail is incredibly smooth.  Bump up the resolution while adjusting the orientation, and most of your build problems go away.  But it's still not injection-molding quality.

This is what happens when you try to make a rubber mold of an un-primed ProJet RP - it sticks, and the castings reflect that.



The above photo is of a casting of the first G32C attempt earlier this year.  The core half stuck to the inside walls.  The cavity half came out perfectly.

[peteski]

WD40 is not a lubricant. This is a common misconception. Have you ever tried to paint something sprayed with WD40 and allowed to dry?

I left a small container o WD40 open. After the volatile solvent evaporated I was left with some sort of oily residue in the container. Slight amber in color. It sure looks like some sort of thick oil to me.  It also is not evaporating any further.  It's been couple of years now...

And from a quote from  http://wd40.com/about-us/myths-legends-fun-facts/

Myth: WD-40 Multi-Use Product is not really a lubricant.
Fact:
While the “W-D” in WD-40 stands for Water Displacement, WD-40 Multi-Use Product is a unique, special blend of lubricants. The product’s formulation also contains anti-corrosion agents and ingredients for penetration, water displacement and soil removal.

[wcfn100]

Except that it's not clean, as mmyers05 pointed out.

First of all, not the same technique, he even says that.  Secondly, no one knows what would happen to a Bestine cleaned model under the same circumstance.

If the only caveat to using a water pick is you can't leave it in a 120 degree car all afternoon, I can deal with that.  When someone says after 5 years the paint started cracking or pealing because of missed wax, that's a whole other issue and obviously a big problem.  If you'd like to step up and proclaim that will definitely happen, I'm ready to quote it. 

Jason

[wcfn100]

And from a quote from  http://wd40.com/about-us/myths-legends-fun-facts/

Myth: WD-40 Multi-Use Product is not really a lubricant.
Fact:
While the “W-D” in WD-40 stands for Water Displacement, WD-40 Multi-Use Product is a unique, special blend of lubricants. The product’s formulation also contains anti-corrosion agents and ingredients for penetration, water displacement and soil removal.

And a quote from the Fun Facts:

Crayola® Stain Removal Tips recommends using WD-40 to remove (regular) crayon marks from a variety of surfaces.

Jason

[peteski]

Yes, WD40 is good at removing waxy crayon markings because (as I said earlier), the lubricant is suspended in a solvent.  That solvent (mineral spirits - that is what oil paint thinner is) will might also dissolve the FUD wax. But the oily lubricant will remain on the surface.

Again, quoting from WD40 fun facts:

WD-40 does indeed have 50% mineral spirits, but they are refined and purified for specific characteristics needed to meet today’s performance, regulatory, and safety requirements.

[Chris333]

Crayola means wax and clay.

[havingfuntoo]

WD-40 contains mineral spirits ..... nothing special .... some surfactants (surface acting agents) that assist with the water displacement and penetration of the product in to tight, dry and dirty areas, (that is the dark amber material you see left behind when the solvents evaporate) and some inhibitors to help control surface corrosion. As a substitute to WD-40 for this application try using plain old kero and good quality hand dish washing liquid mixed together. I would suggest a ratio of 20:1, Kero:Dishwash.     

[bbussey]

First of all, not the same technique, he even says that.  Secondly, no one knows what would happen to a Bestine cleaned model under the same circumstance.

If the only caveat to using a water pick is you can't leave it in a 120 degree car all afternoon, I can deal with that.  When someone says after 5 years the paint started cracking or pealing because of missed wax, that's a whole other issue and obviously a big problem.  If you'd like to step up and proclaim that will definitely happen, I'm ready to quote it. 

Well since you're arguing now just to be devilish, you can quote me on this:  What I think you should do is finish your FUD RPs off any way you see fit.  People have given you the benefit of their experience on the subject, which is vastly greater than yours, and you refuse to accept it.  So you should just go with the time-consuming (that you proclaim you don't have much to spare of) wax-removal-with-water method if you feel that will work for you and retain a degree of smoothness that you can accept.

BTW, thinner sections of a FUD model will start to droop and bow over time ... as evidenced by the roof and floor of this NE5 rapid proto. So your best bet is to use FUD for masters and make polyurethane castings, which makes sense anyway from a financial standpoint for multiples.

[cnw mike]

This is my first post here, I'll do a proper introduction post tomorrow when I have more time, but I just wanted to share that I've had fantastic luck using Purple Power engine degreaser in removing wax from prints. I beleive it's a mix of sodium hydroxide and other detergents, works great on oils and wax. A half hour soak, lightly brush, rinse, dry, paint.