Shapeways FM switchers: Cleaning FUD

[wcfn100]

Soak the parts and paint them the next night.  I don't see where your time is being burdened.  Soak them, pull them out, let them air dry which takes minutes, and then airbrush.  No manual labor involved prior to painting other than unscrewing the lid of a glass jar and extracting the parts.

Looks good on paper, just doesn't jive with how I work.

You're not going to get a better result than Bestine if you want all of the wax removed.

And if my concern was just the removal of the wax, I would use it.  I don't think the wax needs to be dissolved in order to have clean model and I'm looking for alternatives.  If this happens to go against David's and your prime directive, I'll live. 


Jason

[Mark W]

I skimmed this quickly, but I did not catch any suggestion related to the technique I use to clean my models.

Water pick. 

It's like a sandblaster, but with non-destructive water.  The fully cleaned models remain the true color of the material.  Here, see for yourself.



You can also see the true texture of this process.  I know many around these parts consider this texture appalling.  But for many of the designs on Shapeways, consider the alternative...

Nothing.

[wcfn100]

Very nice.

Jason

[Scottl]

Thanks for the picture.  This confirms what I have long thought about this discussion- solvents are probably modifying the resin surface material during cleaning.  I work with different types of resin in the lab and most of the weird effects come from so-called compatible solvents, including heptane.  It is often a polymerization effect due to the presence of the solvent.

[DKS]

Looks good on paper, just doesn't jive with how I work.

And if my concern was just the removal of the wax, I would use it.  I don't think the wax needs to be dissolved in order to have clean model and I'm looking for alternatives.  If this happens to go against David's and your prime directive, I'll live. 


Jason

OK, so let me get this straight. You get the RP model in the mail, drop it in a jar of Bestine, and close the lid.

Next day (or maybe two days later, whatever), you open the jar, remove the model, let it air dry for a little while, then start painting.

I don't see the problem. What am I missing?

As for Bryan and my so-called "prime directive," we are not promoting the process to suit our tastes or rule the world; we choose this because it works better than anything else. If something comes along that is better, I'll be the first to switch. But until then, dissolving the wax is the only way I know to totally remove it without causing any physical harm to the model.

I skimmed this quickly, but I did not catch any suggestion related to the technique I use to clean my models.

Water pick. 

It's like a sandblaster, but with non-destructive water.  The fully cleaned models remain the true color of the material.  Here, see for yourself.

You can also see the true texture of this process.  I know many around these parts consider this texture appalling.  But for many of the designs on Shapeways, consider the alternative...

Nothing.

I beg to differ that a water pick is non-destructive. The water may be benign, but under pressure it's going to start removing small details like a laser. As for the surface being totally wax-free, I have my strong doubts.

Thanks for the picture.  This confirms what I have long thought about this discussion- solvents are probably modifying the resin surface material during cleaning.  I work with different types of resin in the lab and most of the weird effects come from so-called compatible solvents, including heptane.  It is often a polymerization effect due to the presence of the solvent.

I do not believe FUD is resin.

[katfudgirl]

hi guys! i love how much this thread has grown, I have a lot of input - I just wanted to let you know I'll be fudding all day today so i probably wont be able to respond until later tonight/tmrw. I havent forgotten though! This is all very informative and has sparked an interesting conversation over here at the factory..

  brb!

[Scottl]

Hmm, everyone has called it resin.  The references to curing made here suggest a resin rather than a molten plastic like ABS.

[DKS]

Hmm, everyone has called it resin.  The references to curing made here suggest a resin rather than a molten plastic like ABS.

According to Shapeways, FUD is a cured acrylic polymer. Acrylics have very good solvent resistance.

[wcfn100]

OK, so let me get this straight. You get the RP model in the mail, drop it in a jar of Bestine, and close the lid.

Next day (or maybe two days later, whatever), you open the jar, remove the model, let it air dry for a little while, then start painting.

I don't see the problem. What am I missing?

You get the RP model in the mail (maybe around 3:00), drop it in a jar of Bestine (hopefully that same day somewhere between 9:30 and 11:30 but probably not), and close the lid.

Next day (or maybe two days later (maybe 4-5 days later), whatever), you open the jar, remove the model, let it air dry for a little while (or unitl I can get back to it), then start painting (the next time I get a chance).

I'm not a task master.  I work purely on motivation and have many project going at once (who doesn't).  Plus I have two boys under 5 that can alter even the best laid hobby plans.   Any break in the process can end up being days or weeks.  If I could get the parts and clean the same day while watching Thomas and Friends and be ready to paint that night, the chance for success increases dramatically.

As for Bryan and my so-called "prime directive," I tend to think you seem to have some unfounded bias against our recommendations; you keep yearning for an alternative, but no one has come up with one, so you rail against us for reasons not entirely understood, even going so far as to claim that soaking the model in a jar for a day or two is somehow inconvenient.

I'll have to go back and see if I said it was inconvenient, that doesn't sound like me.

My basis for not liking Bestine is the frosting and the surface left behind.  It's nice to finally have one example showing that you can have a clean model without the frosting.  As for the surface, you''d have obvioulsy to compare two models side-by-side to see if there is any difference.  And if that technique works, perhaps there are others.

Jason

[Scottl]

Hmm.  I think we need to take one of these to the SEM...  Sounds like a holiday project.  Bowie the Bunny, prepare for your sputter coat.

[Sokramiketes]

I skimmed this quickly, but I did not catch any suggestion related to the technique I use to clean my models.

Water pick. 

It's like a sandblaster, but with non-destructive water.  The fully cleaned models remain the true color of the material.  Here, see for yourself.



You can also see the true texture of this process.  I know many around these parts consider this texture appalling.  But for many of the designs on Shapeways, consider the alternative...

Nothing.

This photo is the whole* debate.  Is it clean, or does it still have wax on it?  I want to know if anyone has had problems with paint adhesion after painting a model that looks like the above. 

My Difco's looked more like the batmobile than the heavily etched white surface of the models cleaned with Bestine.  And they took, and soaked up, Pollyscale just fine. 

Again, someone needs to prove that there is still wax on a model that appears translucent instead of white.  I haven't seen that proof yet.  The assumption is there is wax, and Bestine removes it... but the results could equally prove that Bestine causes a crystal structure change in the surface of FUD that is detrimental.  Maybe there isn't a wax layer. 

*Except for Jason's time issues

[bbussey]

Looks good on paper, just doesn't jive with how I work.

And if my concern was just the removal of the wax, I would use it.  I don't think the wax needs to be dissolved in order to have clean model and I'm looking for alternatives.  If this happens to go against David's and your prime directive, I'll live. 

Fine.  But then don't complain, and all will be cool. 

[bbussey]

... My basis for not liking Bestine is the frosting and the surface left behind.  It's nice to finally have one example showing that you can have a clean model without the frosting.  As for the surface, you''d have obvioulsy to compare two models side-by-side to see if there is any difference.  And if that technique works, perhaps there are others.

Really?  That Batmobile has no intricate details from what I can see, regardless of its size.  Take a water pic to the White Tower window treatments or Keyser Valley caboose mold separations and see how they hold up, then get back to me.

[Dave Schneider]

Here is a recent observation to add to the discussion. I went the Bestine route with my wax removal (as seen on Page 1) and have been working on sanding the surface to remove the noted imperfections. Occasionally I have dipped the sanded shell back into the Bestine to remove some of the sanded bits and the shell turns translucent again. As it dries over the next minute or so, the frosted opaque appearance returns. This would seem to argue against the point that the Bestine is altering the FUD, but I still have an open mind on that.

Best wishes, Dave

[wcfn100]

Really?  That Batmobile has no intricate details from what I can see, regardless of its size.  Take a water pic to the White Tower window treatments or Keyser Valley caboose mold separations and see how they hold up, then get back to me.

Send me a Caboose and I will. 

You'll be done using Bestine inside three months.

Jason