All those who want to run 100-200 car trains... comments!

[PAL_Houston]

"Want to" is different than "reasonably have an expectation of doing so".
My prototype would typically run long trains, but my layout does not have enough running room between stations.
I may be able to build enough staging, if I eventually get around to building a lower level + helix, but I don't think 100 car freights will look right on the layout.

Smaller, 25-50 car trains are also prototypical and look lots better. 

Staging, for me, is more important as a source of multiple trains of shorter length, including both passenger and freight.

[Kisatchie]

I can't imagine a 200 car train. I have a really BIG layout in the planning stages, but I figure 40 car trains will be my maximum.


Hmm... Kiz better hurry
up and get an agent for
his books...

[altohorn25]

I think I've run up to 75 car trains periodically on the modutrak layout.  This is on code 55 track with all cars being outfitted with metal low-profile wheels and MT couplers.  I have never had a problem with motors burning out.  As long as the cars are weighted correctly, I've had no problems (even when we use our return loops instead of the 5' corners - the return loops have around a 19" radius). 

Nate

[kelticsylk]

Not sure I want to run 100 + cars. My yard tracks average about 20-30 car lengths. The longest train I have run is about 20 cars behind a quartet of ER sharks. Seems long enough to me, especially at a scale 10 MPH. The 1.8-2.0% grade on my layout is about a scale mile or 396 inches (33') long. A 100 car train would be almost as long. A train of 132 40' cars is about a mile long in N scale and would literally stretch from Altoona to Gallitzin on the layout. Once past Gallitzin it would occupy one track through the entire helix. It would be impressive, but throws the illusion of distance right out the window.

I have seen such trains run a N-Trak gatherings in Philadelphia, but some of those modular layouts were huge squares with each side being almost a mile long. Since you could only see one side at a time, the affect was very impressive. There is nothing quite like watching a train approach across a scale mile of scenery.

On my own layout three sides are 15 feet long, almost a scale half mile. Watching a train running through any one of these has a similar affect, even though the train is only 20 cars long. Watching the same train working through the curves up the grade is pretty impressive too.

FWIW,
Frank Musick

[robert3985]

I stopped running really long trains when I quit Ntrak.  Those of us who designed the club's new layout standards set the maximum length of our trains at 30 40' cars, a caboose and a Big Boy (or equivalent length lashup).  The passing sidings were set at a minimum of 9.675' which meant that if you wanted a passing siding, your LDE had to be at least 12' long.  Turns out most scenes by the guys ended up being 24' long, or four six foot modules.

Since the concept behind the layout was to have it be operations oriented, with distance between destinations, it was good to keep a train in one prototype scene after another rather than bridging the surface of the moon, Spongebob Squarpants under the trestle, Jurassic Park, the rebel base on Hoth (with sounds and fully lit Imperial walkers) and the ancient cliff dwellings with a fully animated circus (with steam calliope music) up front just with one loooong train. 

Ahhh Ntrak, loved ya, but I don't miss ya... 

[sd75i]

  Jim Fitzgeralds "Cotton Brutte" pulled quite a few cars by itself!

[peteski]

  Jim Fitzgeralds "Cotton Brutte" pulled quite a few cars by itself!

...with its weight made from depleted uranium. right?   

Bob, all those things about N-Trak you didn't like seem to be the things that attract and grab attention of all the possible future model railroaders (of all ages). You forgot to mention Thomas the Tank Engine going around about 200 smiles/hr while taking Anne and Claribel along for the ride.     I agree that N-Trak is not for serious operators, bit it definitely has its place in the N-Scale hierarchy.   ONeTrak is for the serious operators but I don't see or hear of many of those layouts showing up at the local train or toy shows. 

[John]

ONeTrak is for the serious operators but I don't see or hear of many of those layouts showing up at the local train or toy shows.

BANTRAK has a 1T setup .. and they set up regularly .. it's at the B&O museum right now IIRC .. but, no one seriously operates on any NTRAK layouts .. its all roundy round all the time .. ops requires too much setup work to get it going, and that's not something that works for these shows ..

[mmyers]

BANTRAK has a 1T setup .. and they set up regularly .. it's at the B&O museum right now IIRC .. but, no one seriously operates on any NTRAK layouts .. its all roundy round all the time .. ops requires too much setup work to get it going, and that's not something that works for these shows ..

Yep, it's there. Took us three hours to come up with a configuration to clear Santa's workshop, get ADA aisles, keep fire inspectors happy. Need more curved modules, guys.

Martin

[John]

Yep, it's there. Took us three hours to come up with a configuration to clear Santa's workshop, get ADA aisles, keep fire inspectors happy. Need more curved modules, guys.

Martin

I will build something new this year ..  I can make it a curve ..

[peteski]

BANTRAK has a 1T setup .. and they set up regularly .. it's at the B&O museum right now IIRC .. but, no one seriously operates on any NTRAK layouts .. its all roundy round all the time .. ops requires too much setup work to get it going, and that's not something that works for these shows ..

My point exactly!  N-Trak layouts are purely fun roundy-round operations (IMO) to attract the observing audience (mainly consisting of non-modelers like kids, wifes, aunts or grandparents attending the train shows).  They would find "true" switching operations boring.  Besides, the standard N-Trak modules are specifically designed for exhibiting continuously running trains (with their 3-track setup).  Once you make peace with that, you are a happy operator!     Sometimes it is nice to just run trains around a big loop and show off your best trains.

[robert3985]

...with its weight made from depleted uranium. right?   

Bob, all those things about N-Trak you didn't like seem to be the things that attract and grab attention of all the possible future model railroaders (of all ages). You forgot to mention Thomas the Tank Engine going around about 200 smiles/hr while taking Anne and Claribel along for the ride.     I agree that N-Trak is not for serious operators, bit it definitely has its place in the N-Scale hierarchy.   ONeTrak is for the serious operators but I don't see or hear of many of those layouts showing up at the local train or toy shows.

Petski,

Hahaha...actually, when I got back into N-scale, it was with Ntrak.  I liked it just fine for a while, then my direction changed along with the Ntrak club I had joined.  It's not that I "don't like" those things about Ntrak, it just that I want a contiguous portable layout with prototype scenes and double or single track mainlines...set at 52" above the floor, with a skyboard and lighting.  Basically a portable home layout.

I don't have any gripes about Ntrak since, as you state in your later post, it is for attracting non-model railroading audiences and it IS fun to just run trains in circles (for a while at least). Ntrak definitely makes an impression with huge setups, long trains and sudden, abrupt (and sometimes whimsical) scene changes and is perfect for modelers who want to do those things.

However, with our club's new modular standards, we can run trains in circles if we want, but, we can also operate if we want, or do both at the same time if we want. 

We are oriented specifically towards more advanced model railroaders.

The idea that people will be bored with watching switching ops is proving to be false.  Many times during switching maneuvers we'll have an audience watching intently behind the operator, making comments and asking questions.  Of course, mainline trains are running simultaneously, so the people who just want to see trains running through scenery are also looking.

During op sessions at shows (much simplified op sessions presently) we simply cannot run trains that won't fit on passing sidings.

Periodically, we'll have a guest operator who wants to run his long train.  We let him, and it runs flawlessly over our hand-laid turnouts, code 55 and 40 double mainline trackage with no joiner tracks and 1.5% grades (note: totally non-Ntrak).  That's when we're in roundy-round mode.

So, long trains can still run, and I could run long trains if I wanted to on my home layout.  I just don't want to.

However, there will NEVER be Spongebob Squarepants or any of those other totally non-model railroading attractants on our club's model railroad.  People who like our lashup, like it because it represents model railroading, not popular culture...which they can see elsewhere...like over on the Ntrak setup.

[mmyers]

Roundy-round on our oNetrak setups at the B & O museum turned out to be its lifesaver. Trying to find full time operators to run from 9 am to 4 pm daily for two weeks was near impossible. Most of the guys that want to run operations have jobs that interfere. Once we closed the loop we could put a train on it and set it to run all day. A 20 ft. x 20 ft. layout with nothing running all day wouldn't be in the museum for long.
Operators can run operations anytime. No need to run the whole loop. Many patrons will watch and ask a lot of questions. Caught a few new club members too.

Martin Myers

[pnolan48]

The rule of thumb that I have always gone by is for every percent of grade you increase, you cut your train length in roughly half.

A loco that can pull 80 cars on level, will handle 40 on a 1% grade, 20 on a 2% grade, 10 on a 3% grade, etc.  It not really that simple of an equation but it is usefull when planning. Some say it's more like you loose a 1/3 of your train. It's always nice when the loco can pull more than you planned for. The only way to know for sure is testing.

I've been fooling around with that equation for years, and agree with Tony that's it's somewhere between a 50% and 33% reduction. I also did a lot of testing. I came up with this equation for 100-car trains on reasonable grades: the train length on grade is the x^th root of the train length on level, where x is 1.n and n is the percent grade. Thus, with a 1% grade, x equals 1.1; with a 2% grade, x equals 1.2; with a 3% grade, x equals 1.3, and so on. This yields:

1% grade = 66% of level length
2% grade = 46%
3% grade = 34%
4% grade = 27%
5% grade = 22%
6% grade = 18%

After 6% it probably breaks down, and I'm not sure what happens with shorter trains. It was pretty dead on on my two layouts that could run 100+ car trains. BTW, curve fitting in math has always fascinated me.

[peteski]

After 6% it probably breaks down, and I'm not sure what happens with shorter trains. It was pretty dead on on my two layouts that could run 100+ car trains. BTW, curve fitting in math has always fascinated me.

...speaking of curves, the equation I assume was for tangent track. If that long train is traversing curves (either on the flat parts on on the grade, the percentages will drop by quite a bit.