All those who want to run 100-200 car trains... comments!

[superturbine]

Here you guys go....  Post away!!   

I am very interested in those want to run 200 car trains. 
What has been your experience? 
How do couplers hold up? 
What is the engine life? 
Have you had motor failures?
How many engines does it take? 
What engine has the best pulling power? 
Do you run steam?

Jason Smith
 

[superduperchief]

answers in order

1 - 200 - 300 car trains
2 - mixed
3 - micro-trains good
     kato couplers - bad
4 - about 6 months
5 - yes
5 - 5 to 6 diesels
     6 - 8 steam
6 - kato
7 - yes

[Rossford Yard]

Interesting topic. Other questions to ask might be max grade and min. curve radius.  I suspect any grade would stop a longer train, and tighter curves (esp in combo with grades) would result in more stringlines and broken couplers than it would be worth.  I also suspect that proper weighting and equal weighting in terms of oz per inch would also be important for reliable success. 

Even then, replacing the motors every six months would be a drag for the purpose of running....well, drags.

Denver Road Doug went around to lots of NTrak layouts and decided (your opinion might vary) that it really only takes 32-35 cars to "look" like a real train.  Might go to 45-50 and then you are close enough to actual train lengths, other than a few.  On my old layout, with grades and a few tight curves, 30 was about the max I could run reliably and 45 caused all sorts of problems.

Hopefully, on the new layout, with no grades save the helix at 2.1% between levels, we can go a bit longer.  I have a few 15 foot (about 45 car) staging tracks so I will test the limits!

I guess the question in all of this, is how long a train do you guys think is really necessary to get that proto effect?

[C855B]

I regularly run 60 to 80-car trains on an N-Trak layout. This obviously makes my observations fully YMMV, since we're talking about level, few curves, and marginal track quality. Anyway...

Biggest issue is couplers - lots of pull-aparts with Accumates if there are more than 20-25 cars trailing. So I've almost completed converting all cars to MTL. I use the dreaded slinky effect to my advantage, running in the slack then pulling it out to reduce wheel slip on startup. I typically run a mix of four Atlas and Life-Like Geeps on these trains, although this is mostly because they're the ones that have DCC, as most of my Kato C-C fleet have the older chassis and are "bench queens" waiting for encoder installs. The trains run OK on the level with three units, but a lot of huffing and puffing to get them started.

Can't gauge motor longevity because these trains run for four-hour stints maybe eight times a year, although I don't notice anything bad (excessive wheel slip, motor heating) that would lead me to believe they would be problems. Again, bear in mind: no grades.

That said, I did run the 80-car train with a single Athearn Big Boy during one such session. It had no problems whatsoever. Very impressive.

[OHCR 4218]

I have been running 100+ car trains for years on our Ntrak layout when we do the local fair. I usualy have 3 sometimes 4 locomotives although I can tell you that 1 kato C44-9W will pull 80 empty unmodified blma topgons alone. Other than that train I use Microtrains 1035s on evey car. I will switch to them on the coal train too as time and money allow. The atlas trucks do roll better, but the acummates will not hold up to that kind of stress long. I think I broke 2 or 3 accumates a day running that train. I probbably break 2 or 3 microtrains a year in long trains. I have never burnt up a kato motor. I use Labelle 102 oil on all my engines every few hours and cleen my wheels with 97% denatured alcohol on a scap of old tee shirt. If you are carefull you can pull the entire train over the rag too. It will pull better with clean wheels on the cars. New Katos do not have neer the pulling power the old ones did so the older you use the less motive power it will take.

Brandon

[Skeebo]

When I was a member of the San Diego SONS we regularly ran 100 car trains and I've run as long as 200 without problem, here's my observations.

     WIth proper track work anything is possible. Use standards, mine are; 1.5% grade max, keep them constant, avoid up and downs. Minimum radius 24 inches, use easments especially with S curves. Use #7 or greater switches on the main.

     With diesels my rule of thumb is one loco per 25 cars, When you go over four diesels in a consist they tend to self speed balance, but it's still always better to put the slower ones in front. New safe metal alloy chassis tend to be lighter, so, early Kato GP38-2 and GP50 put the most weight on the least number of axles for best pulling power.

     With steam it really varies according to brand and modifications, and if the cars have low profile wheelsets. In testing we determined you could pull 40% more cars when they're equiped with low pros. That goes up even more with quality metal low profile wheels. To enable Rich Weyand to run 100 car coal drags on his Pocohantas Divison behind Y6b's I cast longer tenders and water tenders so he could put RSC2's with brass weight slabs behind them. He went from 16 wheel drive to 40. This was covered in the 2002 model railroad planning.

     I've never burnt out a motor pulling long trains. You can pull longer trains with Rapido couplers but why would you want to. Micro trains couplers are plastic and begin reaching their limits on a layout with 1.5% grades at approximately 65 cars if you use low profile wheelsets. That seems to be a majic number as anything much longer than 50 cars you don't tend to see the rear of the train while running if you walk around with the trains. I wish MT made their couplers out of a non magnetic metal like Kadee does in HO. All other brands of coupler are crap.

     Important, to avoid grid locking your layout with one long train you should set a standard for your sidings. To determine my siding lenth I set up several very long parallel straight tracks and set up some favorite trains to decide this. Trains I set up were; SP 24 car Daylight behind diesels and steam with helpers, a UP pig/auto rack train behind DDA40X/SD40-2/DDA40X, a long coal drag, etc. Adding a bit to avoid fouling I set my minimum at 17 feet, so I can pull 50 car trains with four locos and a caboose without problem.

    Hope this helps,
    Jim

     

[jagged ben]

Jim Reising runs 100 car trains on his 1 percent grades on the Oakville sub.

http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?99466-The-New-Oakville-Sub

I have run 65 car trains up the 2 percent-plus grades and 22" radius curves of our club layout.  This requires at least 5 Kato locomotives and DPUs.  I do this only with DCC and control the lead and rear engines separately on a digitrax throttle with two knobs.  There is up to a 50% chance of derailment but this is largely because the trackwork isn't as perfect as it could be.

I suspect you will find that one Kato locomotive can pull 40-50 'ordinary' N scale cars on the flat, and that you will have to divide that number roughly by at least 2 for every 2 percent of grade that you have.  (i.e. 20-25 cars on 2 percent grades, 10-12 on 4 percent grades).   Atlas locomotives will pull about 2/3rds of Katos.  Older locomotives will have better pulling power.  Curves will limit train length in that you'll get string-lining unless you have helpers.

The Athearn F45s and FP45s are really good pullers because that wide body has extra weight inside.  The same is true of Intermountain F units compared to Atlas Geeps. 

I would love to run 100 car trains but it's not really possible on our club layout, and I don't do Ntrak (yet?)  I don't agree that 30 cars "looks" as long as a real train, but 60+ cars does, and so does a scale half-mile (16.5 feet) even though real trains nowadays are usually over a mile.

[John]

I've run long ones too .. just don't find it that exciting considering the amount of work that goes into it ..

[SkipGear]

For Ntrak I like long trains.

I have cooked a motor in my 2-10-2. That was running 88 cars + caboose for about 2 hours before it let go finally.

Steam:
  A typical coal drag will be around 80 cars with one loco. I don't care for double heading. The train is usually my 2-10-2 with a mix of MT 2 bay, Athearn/MDC 3 bay, Atlas 2 bay and a few other random coal cars totaling around 75-80. Beyond that things can get tempermental. This is a mix of Microtrains and Accumates and I don't have any problems with Accumates coming apart. The only thing I do different with accumates is make sure the trip pin is slightly above the height gauge which usually means an adjustment for every new car. The accumates under stress will draw down a bit, making the trip pin too low, which I believe is the cause of most of the exploding accumate comments. I have never had an accumate failure that wasn't going through a turnout or a crossing.
 Other than that, my Y-3 can handle about 60 cars without stress, as well as a couple Bachmann 2-8-0's that I have. I have never put enough car behind an Athearn Challenger to stop it yet, 80 is usually all I take for any one train. The hardest train I have to pull is a troop train consisting of about 20 MT troop cars, a dozzen flats w/loads, some box cars and tanks and a MT observation for the officers car. The Bachmann Heavy Mountain and 2-10-2 will both just pull that train but I can't add much more too it. The Y-3 pulls it but you can tell it is working. Those troop cars are heavy and not the best rolling of the bunch.

Diesel:
  This is my 8 year old sons area. He runs a lashup of a Bachmann SD45, Athearn SD70, LL/Walthers GP38-2, and an Intermountain SD45-T2 usually. We have more loco's but that will pull most everything he wants.  I think at the last show we had it up to around 85 cars but started having problems with some empty centerbeams wanting to stringline in the middle of the train so we stopped adding. In this consist I have had the motor in the GP38-2 go south on me. I replaced it with an Atlas motor and it has been fine ever since.
 I've run a 70 car coal drag up the hill on my buddies layout (1-1.5% grade the entire way 3 1/2 laps around his basement. This was pulled with an ABBA set of RF-16's. I don't think anything could have slowed that quartet of loco's. It was like the cars were not even there.

[superturbine]

Perhaps we can plan a pull off in Milwaukee.  The most I've pulled is 160 cars with a set of OMI SUPERTURBINES.

[Cajonpassfan]

Other than that, my Y-3 can handle about 60 cars without stress, as well as a couple Bachmann 2-8-0's that I have. I have never put enough car behind an Athearn Challenger to stop it yet, 80 is usually all I take for any one train.

Tony, that's interesting how significantly grades and curves diminish performance (models, as well as prototype). I can only get about 18 40' cars or 11 passenger cars out of my unmodified Athearn Challenger up 2.2% grades and 18" to 24" (compensated) curves on my home layout. Not that it's a problem, I like using helpers, just like the real thing. But, by comparison, the Key brass Challenger will walk up the same trackage with 30 cars. Of course, the Athearn looks better doing it....
Regards, Otto

[superchief]

I ran a 101 car train around my old layout with 7 engines, the current layout has a 464 ft main, 12 foot passing tracks, 24 feet between towns, my longest "normal"freights are 35-38 cars and that is becuase that is the length of the staging tracks. I have a 2% helper district with a four unit ABBA f units that were "derated"(motor and gears pulled from 2 units)they will pull the train all over the layout but stall on the grade requiring the helper!!!!! Gordon

[Flagler]

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Some long trains on my RR

[slickwillie]

For my long coal trains I modified Accumate couplers by putting in Unimate T-shank knuckles. This gave me the benefit of the freer-running Atlas trucks as well as the most reliable coupler face. IMHO that's the best long train coupler solution.

YMMV but I have found MTs reach their limit around 60-80 cars. At that point the strain on the cars closest to the locomotives just gets too great. Unimates are bullet proof and I've not seen them reach their limit.

As for steam, the ugly Con-Cor 2-10-2 and Athearn Challenger & Big Boy are the only locos that can pull 60 car trains alone. But even they need a little help when the car count goes over 100.

[SkipGear]

Tony, that's interesting how significantly grades and curves diminish performance (models, as well as prototype). I can only get about 18 40' cars or 11 passenger cars out of my unmodified Athearn Challenger up 2.2% grades and 18" to 24" (compensated) curves on my home layout. Not that it's a problem, I like using helpers, just like the real thing. But, by comparison, the Key brass Challenger will walk up the same trackage with 30 cars. Of course, the Athearn looks better doing it....
Regards, Otto

The rule of thumb that I have always gone by is for every percent of grade you increase, you cut your train length in roughly half.

A loco that can pull 80 cars on level, will handle 40 on a 1% grade, 20 on a 2% grade, 10 on a 3% grade, etc.  It not really that simple of an equation but it is usefull when planning. Some say it's more like you loose a 1/3 of your train. It's always nice when the loco can pull more than you planned for. The only way to know for sure is testing.