Physiotomy of Sharks: An Update

[kelticsylk]

A while back I had posted a thread comparing the cosmetic differences between the Pennsylvania Railroads Baldwin built "sharks".

I was thumbing through some Model Railroader magazines from the '60s and came across a drawing I didn't know I had. In the October 1966 issue Joseph Sirl drew up a Baldwin DR-4-4-15, the first generation of sharknose diesels freighters. This early shark was mechanically similar to the Baldwin "babyface" model of the DR-4-4-15 but used the Loewy styled carbody styled after the Pennsylvania's sharknose passenger locomotives.

Physically, all the freight sharks look similar, but they are not identical. There are subtle differences between the first gen sharks and the later versions. The early DR-4-4-15 (Pennsy class BF15) was a foot longer than the RF-16 (PRR class BF16) and shared the nose and cab with it's larger cousin, the sharknosed DR-6-4-20 passenger locomotive (Pennsylvania class BP20) The RF-16 nose is stubbier. The cab was moved forward a foot to accommodate changes in the engine compartment. The cab windows and drip rail are also squared off as well as the radiator grilles. Apparently these changes also appeared in the last order of DR-4-4-15 units delivered to the Pennsy, classified as BF15a.

I made a comparison "drawing" in Paint Shop using scans of the various drawings I have access to...

The red line indicates the first gen cab location, the green is the modified version.

There are some discrepencies in the drawings but these relate to fuel filler locations and nose door size.

Regards,
Frank Musick

[Alwyn Cutmore]

Hi Frank,
I do believe that the BF15 drawing need to be taken a long way back to the drawing boards and compared with photos just to show where everything is out of step. The Mansard Roof Grills are totally wrong and do not resemble what is there. What you have is a hybrid model with BP20 side grills so I would not put too much faith in that.  While I understand that you are trying to justify the existence of a BP20 on your road there are quite a number of differences between all of the Sharks. There is a book on sharks of the PRR and it covers all the variants. There were even differences between the first 2 BP 20 A units  and the rest but the major spotting difference was the two headlights. The power trucks on the Sharks were different to other Baldwin units so I was informed. This I still have to confirm but I was informed that they did not have the standard AAR trucks. For my use I power the old V Line Shells with Atlas/Kato RS3 Mechs and I am quite happy with that but when it comes to BP20s they require a longer ,ech than a DL109. Those suckers were about 8 feet longer than an E8.

Regards

Al 

[LV LOU]

Al,the rear truck on a Con Cor DL109 can be turned around for the extra length..

[kelticsylk]

Actually, the discussion is more about the freighters. Many modelers don't know about the DR-4-4-15. They think all freighters have the shorter nose.

[Alwyn Cutmore]

Hi Lou,
Will have to look at that. I was looking at doing a cast chassis to take the Kato PA1 mech components. Kinda stretched to make it the correct length to get a better running mech.

Hi Frank,
In the documentation I have there is no indication of a long or short nose between the BF-15s and the BF-16s. There is an indication that there was a difference in length between the first and second batches of the BF-15s of 3 1/2" which continued into the BF-16s.

The DR-4-4-1500 came in a number of batches. The first order of 26 "A" and 26 "B" arrived in 1949 while another 16 units, 8 "A" and 8 "B", arrived in 1950. The two batches differed in that the first batch had cast chassis while the second batch , like the BF16s, had a fabricated chassis. The first batch were numbered from 9568 to 9593 while the second batch were numbered 9700 to 9707. If you look at photos of the 9500 series as those on the 9700 series there appears to be a more pronounced point on the top of the nose and there are some differences around the pilot. The coupled length of these units is reported as 54' 4 1/2"  for the first series BF-15 and 54' 8" for the second series BF-15a.  The coupled length of the BF-16s was 54'8" the same as the second series BF-15s. Other mods were carried out over the years with clearance cut outs to the pilot sides and the addition of ladders and steps. 

The RF-16s while higher in horsepower and tractive effort  used the same  frame as the 9700 series. The RF-16s were delivered in three groups, 1st 2000 series of 16 A, B sets, the 2nd 9500 series of 3 A-B-A sets and the 3rd 9708 series of 13 A-B-A sets and 6 A-A sets. 

Three units were re-powered by ALCO, 9726A, 2001A  and 9583B and were reclassified as ABF-18 to match the up-rated horsepower of 1800.

That is a brief treatise from the book Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume Four - Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units by John D Hahn, Jr which is a Wither's Publication. It does appear nigh on impossible to find three definite side on photos so that they can be fitted into specific boxes and proportioned for more accurate comparison.

I have quite a few plans I have acquired over the years of the BP20 and BF series. I do not own them and do not know where to find the copyright owner so I will not publish them anywhere. There was also a Shark turbine, "The Blue Goose" which apparently conducted trials on the PRR but was eventually scrapped. It was a Bo Bo Bo Bo and while not totally in the same profile of the accepted sharks you can see the parts of the nose and cab that was used in its' development.

Regards

Al 

[GaryHinshaw]

Do you really mean physiotomy, Frank?  The only word I could find that came close to matching this is symphysiotomy, and I'm sure you did not mean that.  In a stretch I can imagine you meant physiometry, but that doesn't really fit either, because you're not measuring internal biological functions.  How about we just change the title to metrology?

-gfh

P.S. Seems like all I do these days is call people out. It's exam period here and I have grading on the brain... sorry.

[kelticsylk]

Gary,
I used "physiotomy" in the same tongue in cheek manner as I once used "species" in a post about the variations on these Baldwins.

Al,
I believe the info about the short nose comes from "Diesels of Eddystone". If I remember correctly it stated that the cab was pushed forward to allow the prime mover to be installed with the generator towards the front. I didn't realize the length was different until I saw the Model Railroader drawing. I don't think it was mentioned in the Eddystone book.

I know what you means about side on photos. The only one I have is in Don Balls book "Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's - 1950's. It shows BF15 #9591, one of the 1949 batch of DR-4-4-15 units. All the other photos I have seen are all three quarter view.

As for modeling  the BP20...I'm using a DL109 mechanism. It's much longer than the E units I have. I had tried to "kit bash" a body shell using pieces of freight shark shells. While the general cross section is similar the cab and nose definitely cannot be used, unless you can heat it up and stretch it    Even at that the window / drip rail would still look like an RF-16. The rest of the body isn't much better. All the panel sizes, vent openings and door locations are wrong. I'm better off scratch building the beast from styrene. "There's the rub" as they say, How to get that nose just right.

I've put off all but minor repair to my locomotive fleet and rolling stock until my layout is more finished so there won't be models of any BP20's anytime soon.

I appreciate the feedback on these locomotives. They are among my favorites.

Regards,
Frank Musick

[Chris333]

With only one shark available in N scale. Does any of this matter?

[Alwyn Cutmore]

Hi Chris,

Two sharks are available in N Scale. The ER/Bachmann model and the re-vamped V Line model body is available from Delux Innovations. The V Line model is more correct for the BF15 because it has some of the correct reports features. It is all very good for cutting and shutting.

Hi Frank,

Cannot discuss the details with you as I do not have that info. I have just bought the book through Amazon and it will be here sometime after Christmas. Will discuss it more then. It is a pity they put that ugly face on the front. PM me sometime and I may be able to assist you further. I do know the BP20 was about 8 foot longer than the E8.

Regards

Al

[Bob Bufkin]

There are actually 3 if you count the passenger shark shell.  However, it's not a great shell and would take a lot of work to get a decent model.

[kelticsylk]

I have four ER sharks. Two are painted for Pennsy and two were NYC. I also bought some shells off E-Bay. I carved one up by reoving the nose, cutting off the top (of the nose) and trying to stretch it. Didn't work out. So then I just took two, cut 'em up to make the 80' carbody and slipped them over a DL109 chassis...

It's still like this because I realized that I'd be better off just fabricating a clean shell and adding the correct detail (easier said then done). Then I started a big revision on my layout and put it aside.

As for the freighters, I originally wanted to change the NYC pair into a BP15 set. That's how this whole discussion got started. While the BP20 has a longer nose than the RF-16 I began to suspect the DR-4-4-15 did not. It might not be a simple "backdate" of the RF-16.

At one time the layout was to be in the early 1950's. Now I'm considering moving the time period back a couple of years to the late '40s. This would mean all the sharks would have to be DR-4-4-15's. If I'm right all the sharks should have the longer nose. Of course now I also know the RF-16 is shorter. Maybe I should just change the small details and leave well enough alone.

All of this is on hold right now. Can't run trains till you finish laying down the track. Still, I would like to know how they really looked for sure if only just to know.

Frank

[Alwyn Cutmore]

Hi Frank,

Got your PM. Will answer soon. You have piqued my curiosity now and I will not rest until I get to the bottom of this. Being a Slobbering Pennsy Shark Nose Freak I would like my models to be as close as possible to the prototype.

Hi Bob,

You could say that there was the Father Nature BP20 model but it had more mistakes than a grade one spelling contest. There was a guy out west who made a pattern for a BP20 which I believe has been run under a Jolly Roger a few times. Then there is the KenRay model. I do not see it as being available anymore. Yes there have been a few around but with little or no real research or effort put into making the model anywhere near perfect. On the oher side the V Line Shells have had a skull and cross bones over it a few times as well.

All,

I have three of the ER/Bachmann Sharks and what a pain. Very noisy and one has a click, click where one of the gears has split. It will eventually be re-powered with a Atlas RS3. I understand the trucks are slightly long for the shark but the performance is much better. Some like the ER/Bachmann mech. I suffer it. I look forward to reading more about the sharks and getting it right.

Regards

Al

[Iain]

You know, the one thing I'd like in this world is a fairly high definition shot of the rear of a BLW cab unit; I've only seen one, and that was being scrapped so all the interesting bits had been removed.

Oddly, I've only sen side on shots of B units by themselves.

[Bob Bufkin]

I was thinking of the KenRay version of the passenger shark.  Didn't even know about the other ones made.  Few years ago at Timonium they were selling them but I really didn't like how they lookied.

[Alwyn Cutmore]

This is a photo of the Father Nature A and B Units.



They are a good reason for doing this right. Even the KenRay versions left a lot to be desired and some.  I will need to talk more with the PRRT&HS about the BP20s.

If what you are saying is correct Frank there are quite a few body styles for the sharks. BF15s X 2, BF16s X 1, ABF18s X 1, BP20s X 2, Blue Goose X 1 plus the B Units.. Th3e more sharks the merrier.

Iain,

There is at least 1 shark left in the US but it is hidden away some where. It was a D&H unit.

Regards

Al