Cisco Bridges: a new layout concept

[Scottl]

Thanks Rod, I've seen those and they do look pretty good.  My budget is crimped these days so I'm looking to populate the forest as economically as possible.

I have planted another 350 trees and finished more of the scenery.  I'm still trying to develop a workable solution for casting the rock sheds in plaster and it is coming along.    Here are a few shots for posterity.



The river will be widened to give this scene some more depth.



Here is a fuzzy panorama to give a sense of where this is going.  I need to finish painting some mountains on the backdrop where those clouds are.  That break in the backdrop height is not great in my eyes, but I did not want to lose access to the window.

[nuno81291]

Wow it's really coming together! An equally impressive scene to parallel your bridge scene- the rock work is especially eye catching!!

[Scottl]

I've hit a serious case of layout roadblock in the past month that has been building for much of the year.  I"m busy enough on train related things, but I'm starting to get burnt out by dealing with scenery and running trains in circles.  I don't know where this will end, but I spent some time this afternoon going through my collections.  I found this image amusing, if improbable 

[Missaberoad]

I've hit a serious case of layout roadblock in the past month that has been building for much of the year.  I"m busy enough on train related things, but I'm starting to get burnt out by dealing with scenery and running trains in circles.  I don't know where this will end, but I spent some time this afternoon going through my collections.  I found this image amusing, if improbable 

Hmm is this where I start digging through my pictures of Thunder bay while you warm up the sawzall? 

only (mostly) joking of course... 

[Scottl]

LOL.  I hope it does not end up with power tools.m  But no promises 

[Philip H]

So that's a cool shot, but not revealing of your specific block. Is it conceptual,
Constructional, functional, era related?

[Scottl]

I kind of like that scene now that there is a backdrop of sorts.  I had to GIMP the edges and some of the sky.

My block is in part operational, which should be no surprise as my layout is a large oval.  As much fun as watching trains go through it can be, it does not do much for me anymore.  This makes it hard to move forward on finishing the scenery.  Having said that, I have never really "operated", so I don't have a sense of what it entails other than a more hands on approach.  When I look at other layouts designed for operation, I have some difficulty imagining how the are actually used. 

Another part of my block is that I am nearing completion of the layout.  What is left now are scenic items that are neither novel or particularly interesting to do, so the lack of operational interest holds me back on finishing these. 

Yet another aspect is that I have other train interests beyond this particular era.  As the photo shows, I have interests in European trains and I have accumulated a few items based on German and Swiss prototypes.  I also have a modest collection of On30 building kits and rolling stock and a long standing interesting in mining operations.  The thought of a small module type of effort with some new challenges of laying track work, assembling and finishing detailed structures and doing some scratchbuliding are attractive. 

It might be a passing malaise but I think it is safe to say this has been building for much of the last six months.  I have sketched out a few ideas for a more operations-oriented modern port layout (based loosely on CN in Vancouver) which is very attractive and makes use of all of my equipment, and I have also dabbled with ideas for a mining module.  I don't have space to do anything new without some removal of what I have built as it takes up the entire room, so a change in direction won't let me do much for long without taking down some of the current layout.  Having said that, it took me two years of building the bridge before I took down my last layout, so a similar work bench-focused strategy might be a way to explore some other interests while preserving what I have. 

[CNR5529]

Just a thought, what about rebuilding the Cisco bridges scene as a module? This way you can keep and showcase all that hard work, but make room for some new projects to keep you engaged.

[mark dance]

Hi Scott...given you are coming to the RRMBC  meet in November to present a (much anticipated) clinic on your wonderful bridge scene, have you signed up for any ops sessions? We have several world class operations layouts operating on the Thursday and Friday night and there were one or two slots still available as of Saturday. Sign up and give it a try! Operations kind of ties all our hard work and creativity together and adds a social aspect which is relatively unique to our modelling hobby...a bit like miniature war gaming.

If the ops spots are all full drop me an email. Gary and I are hosting 8 operators on the C & W Thursday night and we will see what we can do. ☺

Md

[Philip H]

So I totally get both the operational thing, and the  multi-scale, multi locale thing. Until I started haning with the DMV A$$hats I had'nt ever done formal operations.  I have to admit its pretty cool, and I also have to admit I prefer a local switching to running the long mainline - except for TOFC/COFC.  That I could watch go in circles all day.

Is the area around the bridge or up an down the line totally devoid of industry?  Even if its not presently rail served, you can bend the truth a bit and get some switching mileage to add operational interest.

YOu can also scratch the other itches with modules - even built or stored under the present layout.

And I agree - don't trash the bridge.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

If you trash that bridge, we're throwing you off the RailWire.

But I definitely understand your malaise. It happened to me with my NCR shelf layout, and is part of the reason that it now lives with @chicken45. Roundy round satisfies some folks (I'm looking at you @Dave Vollmer), but not everyone.

I highly recommend taking Mark's advice above and attending some ops sessions. I also recommend doing all the reading you can on the subject. Have you read John Armstrong's books?
https://smile.amazon.com/Railroad-What-Does/dp/0911382046/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1476196279&sr=8-2&keywords=the+railroad+what+it+is+what+it+does
https://smile.amazon.com/Track-Planning-Realistic-Operation-Railroader/dp/0890242275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476196260&sr=8-1&keywords=john+armstrong

Some of the stuff (particularly in the second one) is rather dated, but it's a good starting point.

If you want to really dive in though, I think my favorite railroad operations book is Lance Mindheim's "How To Operate A Modern Era Switching Layout".
https://smile.amazon.com/How-Operate-Modern-Switching-Layout/dp/1467956996/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1476196353&sr=1-4&keywords=lance+mindheim

Also, a wonderful read. Even though it's all about Conrail, it gives a great flavor for how rail traffic moves (well, moved): https://conrailshoppe.com/catalog/items/Conrail-Commodities-Stock-Out-Print

[Scottl]

Thanks everyone.  Mark, I'll follow up on that as I arrive early on Thursday and it would be great to observe and get some hands on insights.  Thanks Ed for the suggestions for reading- I have not read any of that so some research is probably a good place to go first.

The bridge is constructed on a dedicated 2' X 4' plywood base, so if I end up making a big change, I could pull it out intact with scenery and save it as a module.  I'm not sure it would work for me without the entire scene but I would not let it go to waste.  Space in my room/house is at such a premium, I could potentially donate it to a museum like Rail Expo in Montreal.  Or maybe it could end up with the HO version in Wainwright AB.  I don't want to worry about that for now but it won't end up in the weekly garbage pick up.

Phil, there is essentially no industry on the CN line from Kamloops to Hope, about 300 km total.  It is a spectacular section of railroad but it offers little other than running trains.  Even the towns have little in the way of yards.  I debated doing a version of the newly developing Ashcroft Terminal (http://www.ashcroftterminal.com/) which might someday be a pretty neat modelling opportunity, but for now it would have to be a bit protolance.  One approach would be to develop a Vancouver port component opposite of Cisco, which offers diverse opportunities for operations, especially if I high grade different scenes.

Part of this is that I probably need to put some priority to my interests and be realistic about it.  Some would require a major investment and might yield limited opportunities, while others are quite fertile modelling possibilities.  My Swiss interests, for example, center around the Rhb and especially the  Bernina line.  That would be a spectacular layout to build, but operationally would be a bit limited, much like I have now.  And equipment is limited in all but HOm or HO.
Anyway, thanks for insights and suggestions.  I'm all ears.

[mark dance]

I would like to reinforce that operations can be far more than switching so local industries, while helpful, are not imperative.  Block swaps, interchange, pushers, etc. don't need industries.  As operations involves not only car movement (switching) but train movement.  Especially on TT&TO layouts, what's necessary to get trains over a segment of single track can be quite involved.  Turns out the three simplest isolated sidings on the C&W, where there are only 3 spurs combined between them and two sidings are basically are just passing sidings, often provide the most entertainment...at least for me watching the crews figure out how to (safely) get over the line!

I was quite lucky when I designed the layout as I had no operating experience whatsoever.  I picked a prototype which happened to have a little bit of everything (secondary mainline, wayfreight, pusher grade, yard switching) and I designed the trains in parallel with the layout to give a wide variety of experiences as I wasn't sure what I wanted to run or where my interest would lie.  Initially I thought I would enjoy switching isolated branch lines the most so I included one of those.  Turns out my answer was: I personally wanted none of them!  What I wanted was a layout others would enjoy and I could watch them enjoy it. I wouldn't have guessed but now it seems obvious as this is what gives me the most satisfaction professionally as well.  Anyway the take might be get as much operating experience on others layouts as possible to figure out what you like.

Hope that is helpful

md

[Philip H]

So Building on @mark dance's sage advice, and adding in your givens and druthers, what train density exists ont he main of your chosen subdivision?  It if handles 10 plus trains a day then you can get a lot of mainline operations with you current design. Throw in an occasional work train . . . and a detoured Via Rail passenger train . . . . seems you could have a fabulous Saturday afternoon.

[Scottl]

Thanks both.  I just can't see the operations aspect clearly at this point, but perhaps it is a bias from the examples I have seen here and in the hobby press.  There is a real emphasis on handling individual industries on a car-by-car basis.

The line I am modelling on this layout is an extremely busy mainline, with about 30 trains a day combined with CN and CP.  Unit trains are common, moving materials and goods to and from Vancouver.  It is directional movement so all the trains are following each other.   There are work trains and hi-railers that run the line daily looking for rock slides and other potential hazards.  There is lots of potential for detours from the CP line and bottle necks to accommodate maintenance.   I can envision many scenarios, but in the end, how can I make moving trains over the line interesting in that context, when I only have five hidden staging tracks?

I have followed Ed K's. app development with interest because it seems to me that it is essentially a way of generating both normal operations but also different scenarios that require operators to adjust what they are doing. 

I'm still struggling with this conceptually, but this is very helpful to have a discussion like this.