Accurate 50's era ATSF and SP signals?

[arbomambo]

Hello all....
with jumping 'back' into N scale in a big way...layout, detailling locos, rolling stock, and constructing cars not currently available...I've come down to searching for the proper prototypical signals for the few places on my layout that will have them..
...and...
nothing!....can this be true?
are there NO searchlight style signals available, pre-built, or in kit form, that accurately represent the style used by SF and SP?...with the battery boxes as part of the signal?
 I remember Sunrise Enterprises did these back in the 90's, and I realize that they/he are gone now,...but...has no one filled the gap in their absence?
plenty of nice signal towers in N scale...BLMA, Traincat, Alkem, NJ International, etc...but no 'stand alone' signals....except for modern post-style with modern ladders and platform.
BLMA and BeNscale have a nice webpage with etched brass target style signals...great...that's the type I need, but...they're not available...
BeNscale, on their website...promote the 'future' availability of the single and double equipment/battery box bases...ok, great...but they exist only as a cad drawing...
seriously...what's up?....how do those of you,  who model transition era, signal your layout accurately?
Respectfully,
Bruce

[arbomambo]

seems strange...
add to that, a signal that seems quite different...
From one of the two (ONLY TWO?) pics of Kingman Canyon I've been able to find on the web, that seems to represent my modelled era...
A Union Swith and signal arrangement with a searchlight signal in the lower position, and what appears to be a '3-light' signal in the top position...does this strike anyone else as peculiar or was this a common practice for Santa Fe?
Respectfully,
Bruce

[GaryHinshaw]

Are you sure the BenScale signals are not available?  I have some of their working searchlight signal heads and they're very nice.  I didn't see any mention on their site that the full signals were not available, but that was based on a pretty cursory look.  I don't know of any other options right now, but the head is the trickiest part...

-Gary

[C855B]

I have some of the earliest (two years ago?) BeNscale signals heads, and they're OK. They look great from the front but the backside is not a "modeled" SA, just the LED housing, and I have issues with the bent wire for a "bracket". They're good enough for the N-Trak module I have under construction, but not really what I want for my own layout because the silver paint of my prototypes tends to highlight that it's not really a model, but an approximation. However, I like it that he's offering mast kits now. Good for him.

Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly with Bruce. I'm frustrated, too. Last I asked Craig Martyn about his signals was three years ago. I have not bothered him since because clearly there have been herculean efforts to get much of anything out of his suppliers of late. So, sadly, the signals seem to have been lost in the cracks of his (and our) ongoing delay frustrations. Adding insult, Craig is modeling the exact UP (LA&SL) signals I need, yet here we sit.

But I also need Type D's for UP, with and without early-style snow hoods. And dwarfs.

Nice relay boxes can be had from one of our own: http://www.nztproducts.com/nd-013.htm. While they're intended to represent the bare boxes without signals, I'm sure a little work with a drill would make them serve quite nicely as a signal base.

Bob at TrainCat dropped a couple of hints a while back that he is working on some nice three-color circuit boards that would fit the bill when used with his target frets, but there hasn't been an update there for quite a while.

A Union Swith and signal arrangement with a searchlight signal in the lower position, and what appears to be a '3-light' signal in the top position...does this strike anyone else as peculiar or was this a common practice for Santa Fe?

I tend to think that the bottom signal in that picture might not be an SA, but a fixed aspect. In either case it would likely be an advance indication to the next signal controlling a siding or junction. The number plate on the mast indicates that the most restrictive indication is a "stop and proceed", which makes sense since the picture is in double track territory. Santa Fe did a lot of "advance" indications, and is one of the few - if not only - roads with a "flashing green" aspect ahead of high-speed junctions. (Which was a complete anomaly, as signaling theory dictates that the solid indication is always more restrictive than the same color flashing. The last flashing-green I was aware of was the lower head of an SA on a cantilever signal bridge in Fullerton, CA, and it only disappeared but a couple of years ago, replaced by modern three-colors in FRA-conforming indications on a tubular-construction bridge. Yuck.)

As far as I can remember (from years 'fanning then working for ATSF), at least in the '60s Santa Fe did not mix head types on a mast. But I'm sure there was some rogue signal maintainer out there doing his own thing on an obscure branchline. Never say "never", IOW.

[bill pearce]

As for the atsf, refer to photos, as semaphore signals were common in many regions. I believe there are still one or two left in western Kansas and Eastern Colorado.

[C855B]

^^^^ What Bill said. Santa Fe was quite late in the game replacing semaphores, and many lines that were still ABS in the '90s, such as Raton Pass and the line into the SF Bay area had many semaphores standing. CTC on the mains, however, meant Type D's and SA's.

NJ International's semaphore with the square blade is a good stand-in for ATSF practice, although you'll have to repaint the blade (red with white stripe front, black with white stripe back).

SP also had semaphores late also on non-CTC lines, although they were lower-quadrant. I don't know of any commercially-produced N scale lower-quad, past or present. Here's a pic I just found of a pretty slick junction setup in Texas with lower quads, dated 1981: http://www.railpixs.com/sp2/SP_semaphores_Dallas_Nov81.jpg. I think the fully-loaded crossarms on the signal line poles help make the scene; this is 1920s technology in yeoman duty 60 years later.

As a side note, UP wiped their semaphores (lower-quad) clean off the earth in the early '50s, no prisoners taken.

[jagged ben]

Santa Fe did a lot of "advance" indications, and is one of the few - if not only - roads with a "flashing green" aspect ahead of high-speed junctions. (Which was a complete anomaly, as signaling theory dictates that the solid indication is always more restrictive than the same color flashing.

Santa Fe was the only big western road to use flashing green frequently, but it was and still is much more common on the east coast.

Generally the flashing green is only seen on "speed signal" systems where the high, middle and lower signal heads represent the "fast", "medium" or "slow" speed of the routes.  A normal green on a "medium" signal head must be taken at at medium speed, but a flashing green represents that this route can be taken at the "fast" speed.   (A flashing green on a low speed signal could be taken at medium speed.)   Thus the less restrictive flashing actually makes sense.

Santa Fe was pretty unique in that it incorporated this wrinkle into a system that otherwise was a "route signaling" system and not a speed signalling system.  The flashing green was only used on the "approach limited" aspect where a yellow above it already designated a slower speed than 'clear.'

You'll never see flashing green in the top position on any US railroad.  It will always be below another signal head.

Valuable ATSF signalling resources here:
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/

[arbomambo]

So...with that info (I bookmarked that site months ago...very neat site)...how would this particular set up work?...
the one pictured above (it would probably be the only signal mast on the front end of the layout)
the three lens 'top' signal...I'm assuming green-yellow-red in that order-block signalling?
and the single 'target' below provides?.....speed 'permissiveness'...?
for example...green on top, and blinking green below....
what would the lower target aspect signal display when there is red displayed in the upper signal?
Bruce

[C855B]

Good question(s). Aspect over an unlit target was legitimate practice on Santa Fe. It would be interpreted the same as if there was no lower head at all. We can safely conjecture that the lower target was not a fixed red - it would not indicate anything different than a single head. So it could be either green or yellow, depending on the speed indication needed ahead of the diverging route controlled by the next signal. So we'd have to know a little more about it before pinning it down completely.

[jagged ben]

Most of the time the bottom signal would be dark, and the three light signal on top would show conditions of the main track ahead. 

Somewhere ahead of this signal (ahead meaning ahead of the train, behind the camera) is switch.  If the diverging route on the switch is chosen by the dispatcher, the upper signal will go to yellow (or red), and lower signal will light up.    The color of the lower light will depend on the maximum speed allowed through the switch, and on whether this is the signal right in front of the switch or the signal one block in front of that one.   The light could be solid or flashing or either.

-edit:  basically what C855B posted while I was typing this.   

[draskouasshat]

Most of the time the bottom signal would be dark, and the three light signal on top would show conditions of the main track ahead. 

Somewhere ahead of this signal (ahead meaning ahead of the train, behind the camera) is switch.  If the diverging route on the switch is chosen by the dispatcher, the upper signal will go to yellow (or red), and lower signal will light up.    The color of the lower light will depend on the maximum speed allowed through the switch, and on whether this is the signal right in front of the switch or the signal one block in front of that one.   The light could be solid or flashing or either.

-edit:  basically what C855B posted while I was typing this.   

This is either a "holding" signal or an absolute into a control point. Im pretty sure the ATSF didnt use any speed signals but i could be wrong. The "B" head on a holding signal isnt a "speed" signal but is merely a warning of what the next signal will be depending on if you were taking a diverging route or not and then by timetable instruction, you know what speed the switch can be taken at. It will ALWAYS stay lit when the "A" head is lit unless there was some oddball practice i dont know about as its a big no no to have ANY kind of dark signal. Holding signals are put in to help trains increase braking distance.

As for the words on what the heads display.

On a holding signal, the top head is telling you if the block youre entering is good for max authorized speed and clear signals ahead or  if youre heading towards a yellow, FY, or red ahead.
On the bottom head, it will remain red if no route changes will be made at the CP youre heading towards. If you ARE making a diverging route, it will display a green, yellow, or FY depending on what the blocks look like ahead into the diverging route. They dont tell you how fast to go as thats what the timetable instructions are for.

Adam Draskovich
Signal Department
BNSF Railway

[robert3985]

Bringing the thread back to signal heads, if you're looking for proper D-type signal heads with or without the big snow hoods, you're gonna have to scratch build 'em.

However, if you can put up with a slightly undersized, three-hole target with slots for three small hoods over each light, the etched part may be included in whatever Traincat signal bridge kit you buy.  I know they're in the U.P. Cantilever signal bridge kit, but they're undersized and the holes are too big and it has slots for the three small hoods. Don't know if they're in other Traincat bridge kits.

Here a photo of N-scale D-type signal heads that represent what the U.P. still uses on the Ogden-Wahsatch run (I'm sure they're used elsewhere also) mounted to a modified Traincat signal bridge I built for my good friend Nate for his Riverside scene.


Here's another signal head on one of my scratchbuilt U.P. cantilever signal bridges with an added "flap", which I assume keeps ice and snow from accumulating on the inside of the hood on the prototype.


Here are three views of a D-type signal head in Echo Canyon about 20 miles west of the Wyoming border on the east bound U.P. mainline.






Here's a photo of a prototype U.P. D-type signal, including mast, relay box and characteristic double signal line pole.  Every U.P. signal has these three items and (in my observations) you won't find a signal without the relay box and double telegraph pole.


I haven't lit my signal heads yet, but I've got a preliminary design for a PCB to fit inside the housing on the back of the signal head.  As you can see, the housing on the back of my heads is proportionally larger than the prototype's in order to house that PCB and the attached wires and SMD LED's.

Also, the U.P. masts don't plug into a relay box.  I'm probably going to do 3D RP parts for the light housing, the fixture on the bottom of the mast, the relay box and some of the details on the two-masted signal pole.  A proper diameter stainless steel tube (thin-wall hypodermic tubing from Smallparts.com) for the mast, and etched brass parts for the target, hood, braces, ladder and "flaps".  However, it could be engineered to be built from strictly etched parts, but be harder to assemble.

Obviously, building my own signals is a major project, but I may offer the parts for sale sometime in the next six months or so as a kit.

[jagged ben]

It will ALWAYS stay lit when the "A" head is lit unless there was some oddball practice i dont know about as its a big no no to have ANY kind of dark signal. Holding signals are put in to help trains increase braking distance.

I don't think this was true back then.  C855B mentioned that a lower unlit head was legitimate practice on the ATSF, and those aspects appear in old timetables.

On the bottom head, it will remain red if no route changes will be made at the CP youre heading towards. If you ARE making a diverging route, it will display a green, yellow, or FY depending...

It seems likely that the lower head in the picture only displays one color, though.

[arbomambo]

Thanks all for the replies....
looks as if I'll be 'cobbling' this mast together from bits here and bits there...
I'll install the three colors in the top position and make have available dark and blinking red for the bottom position...
Thanks again,
Bruce

[draskouasshat]

I don't think this was true back then.  C855B mentioned that a lower unlit head was legitimate practice on the ATSF, and those aspects appear in old timetables.

It seems likely that the lower head in the picture only displays one color, though.

The lower head is a searchlight with either an h2 or h5 relay in it. Its basically a semaphore in a box. I highly doubt it displayed one color unless you were going into unsignaled territory. Whats the wording in C855B as id like to read this and possibly help decipher.