Author Topic: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium  (Read 3022 times)

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Bart1701

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Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« on: September 23, 2012, 11:37:51 AM »
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I am working on two rivers that flow through my layout. I am using Liquitex acrylic gloss medium for the water. The base of the riverbeds are sheets of styrene plastic covered with a layer of hydrocal. The width of the rivers run from 1" wide to a maximum of about 4" at one spot; but for the most part, they average between 1" - 2" in width.

On the first riverbed, I brushed two layers of gloss medium on and let each of them dry for about 24 hours each. To get more depth, I then poured some gloss medium over the riverbed. I put gloss medium in a plastic cup and poured some into a section of the river - pouring into the center of the river and using a soft brush to work it towards the riverbanks. Then I would do the same with the next section of the riverbed. The depth of the gloss medium when I poured it looked to be between 1/8" to 1/4" inch before it was worked over to the sides.

It all looked great when wet, but when it dried I discovered a number of rambling "valleys" in the river - meandering valleys that were maybe 1/8" deep and ran in no particular direction (parallel to the banks, perpendicular to the banks, or just a curved wandering path). It took a look of work and ingenuity to get these valleys filled in.

So, the question is: "What would have caused these valleys to appear, and how do I avoid them on the next river I will be working on?

Thanks,
Bart

Scottl

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 11:51:50 AM »
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If you put it on too thick, is there a possibility you had some drying/contraction "cracks" that slowly deformed into the meanders you describe?

Bart1701

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 11:58:48 AM »
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Being poured a little too thick could definitely be a possibility. What's the ideal amount/depth to pour on?  And how do you best control/measure the thickness when pouring?

Thanks,
Bart

Chris333

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 04:02:13 PM »
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Maybe some gloss medium gel would even things out. Just remember it will dry how you last leave it so work it to the shape you like.

Catt

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2012, 05:14:58 PM »
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My experience with gloss medium is to limit the layers as close as possible to 1/8".For me anything deeper than that would take way to long to dry.
Johnathan (Catt) Edwards
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Grande Valley Railway
100% Michigan made

peteski

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 08:38:37 PM »
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Acrylic gloss medium hardens (dries) by evaporation of its solvent (mostly water), so it will shrink as it dries. It is not designed for pouring thicker layers (like you did).Its original purpose is to add some body, texture and gloss to paintings.

If you want thicker layer of water, use clear resins which harden by a chemical reaction (no evaporation, no appreciable shrinkage).  Such resins are Epoxies from Envirotex or Unreal Details. There are others too but those are ones I'm familiar with.  YOu can also tint those resins to add even more depth.

Once you have a layer of epoxy resin deep enough then brush  on the acrylic gloss medium to simulate rough water.
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wazzou

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 10:55:08 PM »
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What is common to use for tinting the resin Envirotex pours?  I know I've seen tinting comments somewhere previously but failed to take note for future reference.
Bryan

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Chris333

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 12:45:24 AM »
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Don't quote me, but I thought you could tint Envirotex with Floquil paint.

robert3985

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 03:06:01 AM »
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You can quote me.  I use enamel paints to tint Envirotex...or, to make it "muddy".  I've done some areas on others' layouts by dripping the tan/brown in the pour before it cures, and, using a screwdriver or skewer, blend it to look like waste water coming out of a factory. 

I can't speak for acrylics or lacquers (such as Floquil).  All I know for sure is that enamels work GREAT.

However, I believe the "perfect" solution to adding "depth" to a river, pond or lake is to airbrush the bed (riverbed, lake-bed, etc.).  The best practice is to go somewhere to a stream and take photos of it from different angles.  If you can get a high angle, that will be your best example since we're looking at our N-scale scenery from high above usually.

Remember, and this is important, the vast majority of times, the water is NOT blue, or a shade of blue when seen from above.  It's usually green, with the depths being a deep green-black.  The shallower areas are lighter shades of green and the shorelines are a couple of shades darker than the dry dirt above the water-line (spit on dirt...it turns dark).  Sometimes there are a lot of weeds in the water, and they are pretty obvious close to shore.  You can "imply" them by painting smoothly squiggly "weeds" using a lighter shade of green...but, still blend them into the "depths".

Also remember how a river cuts into the banks.  The outsides of the bends are where the channel is, and where the bank is the steepest, so don't always run your channel down the middle.  Often, there'll be a sandbank on the insides of sharp river curves...which slowly fades into the channel.

After your riverbed is painted, dam up the ends where it runs off the layout (I just use masking tape), and look for any little holes by placing a bright lamp under your riverbed, then turn out out the rest of the lights.  They'll show up as pinholes of light when viewed from above.  Plug em up with modeling clay that's the appropriate color, because if you don't, the Envirotex will leak all over your floor...and I guarantee you, you don't want that!

Mix up some Envirotex (you don't want to do over a 1/4" layer) and pour it in the painted bed by holding it high and letting it "string" down onto the bed.  Use long straws to blow on it to get the bubbles to come to the surface.  You'll end up dribbling spit onto it.  Don't worry, it won't effect how it sets up or looks.

Let it cure until it's hard, then mix up more batches until you've got the depth you want.  Only pour 1/4" layers.  You really don't need much more than 1/2" since your painted riverbed "implies" the depth.

You'll note that Envirotex will creep up into lots of detailed areas and over rocks, logs, branches, etc.  Don't worry about that right now.

Now, after the resin has cured (a day or two) add Acrylic Gloss Medium with a medium sized round brush, and make the deep parts smooth, and the shallow parts have ripples.  Refer to your photos to get the ripples right...there's a pattern to them.

If you want bigger rapids, you can apply thicker gloss medium (it comes in several thicknesses) or WS "Water Effects".  You can also paint white-caps on the higher rapids using Titanium White Acrylic.  Use a teeny brush for most of this.  You want to keep them 1/160th scale.

You can also work the gloss medium into the shallow areas and add reeds, etc. to it.

If you want to get rid of the Envirotex "creep" on rocks, logs, etc., mix up some flat paint and paint those details where the resin has "crept".

This method will give you both depth and texture, and it works very well for me.

Here's a photo of a river I built for Art McCoid.  Kelly Newton designed the modules, and did 90% of the work.  I built the bridges, some of the grass and trees and did all the water.


Here's the Weber River on my old Wilhemina Pass module, and it's done with just gloss medium, and no Envirotex.  It's got a perfectly flat "bed" made out of Foam-core, and the depth is simply implied by paint.


You'll note that the "blue" color is reflected skyboard, just like real water which reflects the blue sky.  I didn't add any tinting to either of these. Personally, in my experience, tinting better implies muddy water than clear "blue" water.

Cheers!!
Bob Gilmore

peteski

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 10:18:34 PM »
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What is common to use for tinting the resin Envirotex pours?  I know I've seen tinting comments somewhere previously but failed to take note for future reference.

You can use any organic solvent based (not water solvent) enamels or lacquers to tint epoxy, urethane or polyester resins.  Acrylic gloss medium can OTOH be tinted with any water-based tints (such as acrylic paints or even ordinary food coloring).

But after discovering concentrated tints, specifically designed for tinting urethane resins (they work on epoxy and polyester too), I now have a whole new weapon in my ever-growing arsenal of hobby chemicals.  They are expensive but a bottle is so  concentrated that it would last 10 modelers their lifetimes!   I get mine from Smooth-On and it looks like they now sell much smaller sampler packages (I wish they had those available when I was buying the bigger bottles). Even the sample should last for a very long time http://www.smooth-on.com/index.php?cPath=1213

I agree with Bob that pre-shading the bottom of your body of water will make a dramatic difference.  He is also correct that adding brown colored Floquil paints can also be used to muddy the water.
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Sokramiketes

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 04:11:25 PM »
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Not to threadjack, but Bob, can you post some photos of the modules/layout from far?  The scenes are great, would love to get a feel for the overall modular setup!

robert3985

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Re: Need advice for pouring acrylic gloss medium
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 01:38:17 PM »
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Not to threadjack, but Bob, can you post some photos of the modules/layout from far?  The scenes are great, would love to get a feel for the overall modular setup!

Mike,

I'll be starting a layout thread after the Salt Lake NMRA Show (the last weekend in October) that will show the evolution and building of my modular layout so far.  Lots of overall shots, plans, techniques, etc.