higher watt speaker vs. larger size which is better?

[robwill84]

Hi everybody, got a DCC sound question for a steam sound project that I am working on. I'm wondering which would sound better-

16mm round speaker, 0.1 watts

10 x 15mm oval speaker, 1.0 watts

This is of course assuming all other variables are the same, such as enclosure and secure mounting. I'm going to be trying both, just wanted to get some ideas/opinions. I'll post my results later this week.

Rob

[nstars]

I would go for the 1 watt speaker (10x15). The power output can be translated into volume and 1 watt is definitely more. It's important to mention that the sound can be too loud. Soundtraxx always talks about scale sound. Concerning the other speaker, 0.1 watt is really low and I get the feeling this is not a speaker with 8 or 32 Ohm impedance. It looks more like a 100 ohm speaker.

Marc

[kornellred]

Any difference in performance will be a matter of opinion, since the actual physical differences in response will not be all that apparent.

A speaker is a transducer.  A collapsing electromagnetic field induces the movement of the speaker cone, which creates a pressure variation in the atmosphere.  That pressure variation impinges upon the eardrum and stimulates the auditory nerves.  Yeah, yeah..tell me something I don't already know.

A small speaker can only move a small quantity of air, no matter how well it is built.  Even though small speakers have adequate frequency response at low frequencies, the speaker cannot move enough air at low frequencies to stimulate the human eardrum except at very close proximity.  The wattage rating of the speaker will make a measurable difference in sound volume, for sure - but not at low frequencies.

This limitation is absolute and cannot be overcome by any technology.  The wattage rating will increase volume, but the size of the speaker is the inherent limitation with reference to low frequency response.  In my opinion,  you should pick the cheaper speaker for on-board installation.

[CoalPorter]

DO you want better or louder ? Better can only be know by listing and
is not to related to driver size. High quality sound is acheived by putting
the correct speaker in the correct enclosure.

Does the manufacture give you the dB rating of the speaker or any other
specifications? There are about 5 or 6 common specs. for speaker drivers (which
don't really mean much until you try to design the enclosure for them, and
even then it is hard to equate any design spec.  to what  sounds good. )

In all my years of exp. with audio, no one has ever really came up with a test
spec. that transulates to "sound good". 

[robwill84]

This is all great info, thanks guys. These are both coming from Tony's Train Exchange, here is the page with info on them:

http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/speaker_comp.htm

They are the Tony's Dream Speakers 0.63 round speaker and the micro oval.


Notice that the other speakers rated at 0.1 watts say use a 5 ohm 1/2 watt resistor on the speaker, but the 0.63 does not. Would that only be needed for higher volumes?

My TCS-750 is coming in the mail tomorrow, I'll post some install pics and see how everything sounds with the 0.63 speaker I have on hand.

Rob

[mmagliaro]

This is all great info, thanks guys. These are both coming from Tony's Train Exchange, here is the page with info on them:

http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/speaker_comp.htm

They are the Tony's Dream Speakers 0.63 round speaker and the micro oval.


Notice that the other speakers rated at 0.1 watts say use a 5 ohm 1/2 watt resistor on the speaker, but the 0.63 does not. Would that only be needed for higher volumes?

My TCS-750 is coming in the mail tomorrow, I'll post some install pics and see how everything sounds with the 0.63 speaker I have on hand.

Rob

That page says both of these speakers are 8 ohm.

I conjecture (don't own these decoders) that the resistor is recommended because the decoder is more than capable
of putting out more than 0.1w of power on its audio output, so you will damage the speaker unless you put
the resistor in-line to limit the current.  You could keep the volume level on your decoder turned down, but that's risky,
so they recommend the resistor.

As for which one will be better... no idea.  You will have to listen to them.  Loud does not = better.  Not only that, but
there's no guarantee that a 1w rated speaker will be louder than an 0.1w speaker.    The 1w can handle more
audio input power, but that doesn't mean it will play louder.   For example, in the stereo world,
"back in the day", an acoustic suspension speaker could be a total pig that wouldn't start to get loud until
you could feed it 50 watts or more, while a bass reflex speaker could be absolutely ear-splitting loud at only
a couple of watts.  And the power handling, and volume, had nothing to do with which one was "better".

The hint would be in the comments on that page you linked us to.  They say that the little 0.1w can produce "acceptable" sound when placed inside an enclosure.  The 1w doesn't say that, which leads me to suspect that it is louder.  But like I said,
you really can't know without trying them.

[bill pearce]

Max,

Congratualtions on being one of the only modelers that understands scale sound. The sound should come up on you as it does in real life, not be a constant din. I really have not gotten into sound because of what I hear elsewhere.

Bill Pearce

[PAL_Houston]

Max,

Congratualtions on being one of the only modelers that understands scale sound. The sound should come up on you as it does in real life, not be a constant din. I really have not gotten into sound because of what I hear elsewhere.

Bill Pearce

...and I have not gotten into sound because of what I CANNOT hear elsewhere...unfortunately, I have to wear hearing aids, and N-scale sound just isn't loud enough even then. 

[LV LOU]

That page says both of these speakers are 8 ohm.

I conjecture (don't own these decoders) that the resistor is recommended because the decoder is more than capable
of putting out more than 0.1w of power on its audio output, so you will damage the speaker unless you put
the resistor in-line to limit the current.  You could keep the volume level on your decoder turned down, but that's risky,
so they recommend the resistor.

As for which one will be better... no idea.  You will have to listen to them.  Loud does not = better.  Not only that, but
there's no guarantee that a 1w rated speaker will be louder than an 0.1w speaker.    The 1w can handle more
audio input power, but that doesn't mean it will play louder.   For example, in the stereo world,
"back in the day", an acoustic suspension speaker could be a total pig that wouldn't start to get loud until
you could feed it 50 watts or more, while a bass reflex speaker could be absolutely ear-splitting loud at only
a couple of watts.  And the power handling, and volume, had nothing to do with which one was "better".

The hint would be in the comments on that page you linked us to.  They say that the little 0.1w can produce "acceptable" sound when placed inside an enclosure.  The 1w doesn't say that, which leads me to suspect that it is louder.  But like I said,
you really can't know without trying them.

Speakers are voodoo,LOL!! Like Max says,the only way to truly know is to try them.In general,bigger is better,all other things being equal,but a speaker with the exact same specs from two different makers can vary drastically depending on cone material,quality of the coils,and the cone suspension system.Wattage is how much power it can handle, a 1 watt speaker doesn't have better performance than a .5 watt speaker if the output source is only .5 watts.The enclosure is TREMENDOUSLY important,the air moved behind a speaker acts on the enclosure,and makes better base,and greatly increases sound quality and output.The back is almost as important as the front,that's why you see car stereo installers putting huge speakers in even bigger,heavy enclosures.

[peteski]

Yes, as it has been mentioned, wattage is simply a rating of how much power the speaker can handle without burning up.  The important spec of the speaker is it's efficiency.  Feed the same level (wattage) of input signal, the more efficient speaker will produce a louder sound. Unfortunately this spec is not usually provided on the tiny speakers we use.  Probably because these speakers are very inefficient.  Also (as it has also been mentioned) the enclosure of the speaker is a very important in sound volume and quality. Again, a decent enclosure is not something we can easily install in N scale locomotive.

There is some really enlightening info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker . If you don't want to be bothered reading the entire page, at least read from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Electrical_characteristics_of_dynamic_loudspeakers to the end of that section and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Enclosures

[LV LOU]

Yes, as it has been mentioned, wattage is simply a rating of how much power the speaker can handle without burning up.  The important spec of the speaker is it's efficiency.  Feed the same level (wattage) of input signal, the more efficient speaker will produce a louder sound. Unfortunately this spec is not usually provided on the tiny speakers we use.  Probably because these speakers are very inefficient.  Also (as it has also been mentioned) the enclosure of the speaker is a very important in sound volume and quality. Again, a decent enclosure is not something we can easily install in N scale locomotive.

There is some really enlightening info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker . If you don't want to be bothered reading the entire page, at least read from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Electrical_characteristics_of_dynamic_loudspeakers to the end of that section and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Enclosures

One small thing that does greatly increase volume and sound quality is to make the tender shell as airtight as possible..

[robert3985]

Yup. Two things.  First, N-scale sound (crappy MRC sound in my Athearn Big Boys and Challengers) is what made me finally bow down to the DCC gods, so, it's easy to discern that I really like it.

Secondly, I discovered that an airtight speaker enclosure really does produce sound of much better quality and volume.  Heed the advice given here.

I just completed modifying four Kato E9/E8 A-units to accept the 13mm speaker and capacitor that the Digitrax "drop-in" sound decoder for this engine features.  I am going to attempt to use the body as a speaker enclosure, but I did my machining to allow the 33/64th inch diameter speaker to be positioned just above the rear truck, firing out the bottom of the chassis.  If the body isn't sealed well enough, I have machined a tight Delrin cap to seal the 33/64" hole the speaker is sitting in the bottom of.  One way or the other, I'll have an airtight enclosure.

If the speaker you ordered has a custom enclosure available, I would be inclined to advise you to order it and plan on using it in your tender, because of the high likelihood that the tender body will not be sufficiently air-tight.

Cheers!
Bob Gilmore

[DKS]

I suppose I'm an exception. I find model sound, of any type or quality, to make models more toylike than they are when operating in near silence. Indeed, I cannot stand locomotive sound of any kind--it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. When I'm visiting with my friend Rick, he knows to shut off all his sound-equipped locomotives--I've been known to kill the layout power if he doesn't.

[Cajonpassfan]

I suppose I'm an exception. I find model sound, of any type or quality, to make models more toylike than they are when operating in near silence. Indeed, I cannot stand locomotive sound of any kind--it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. When I'm visiting with my friend Rick, he knows to shut off all his sound-equipped locomotives--I've been known to kill the layout power if he doesn't.

Funny, and I find running without sound like watching a silent Buster Keaton movie, to the point I don't even bother running non sound stuff...to each his own I guess. Or maybe you haven't been exposed to decent quality "tightly enclosured" sound from a good decoder like the Tsunami or Loksound? 
The other comment I'd make is that sound is IMHO much more believable in a home layout setting with low ambient sound levels then clubs or especially shows, where it just gets drowned out by the masses...
Just my admittedly subjective opinion,
Otto K.

[Philip H]

I've heard the sound in the Athearn F45s and I like it - not nearly the best quality, and certainly not matched to what you fin din HO, but good sound for N scale none the less.

That said, I want to run trains - which is why I have Lee do all my non-plug and play decoder installations. I have only so much time, and I want to spend it focusing on modeling, not getting frames milled to accept speakers.  So I'll probably never go sound until it gets to be a standard feature on locos.

Yes, that amounts to me confessing to being lazy . . . .