Atlas Switch Machines Melting

[hpwrick]

This is certainly one sided.  The good old boys defenders of the faith, syndrome.   Yes, Atlas has made great strides and also fell flat on their face at times.

Like I said earlier this isn't personal but I haven't seen eye to eye with Atlas over the years.   Nothing implied there.    Do not get me started on the performance of the A approved common wire...theory.   You won't find it on my layout.

As far as believing everything Atlas has had to say or puts out... even today.    I won't' nor would, I recommend it.      Do your own trials and tests and see for yourself.    There are better ways and means out there to power up and throw your Atlas track switches, other then using the  Atlas, switch machines at 18 volts.    Slam, bang, dammed I have another bent moveable point.   What the...well...is going on here.

You won't find me being one of the defenders of the faith.    But I'ma not an outright enemy of Atlas, just a concerned model railroader who isn't likely to buy into everything the A Boys throw out.   Never mind how others treat it.   Did I already say like gospel?     

To give you some insight.  I have six Atlas SD 24's sitting on my workbench that need work and aren't running.   While my Kato, InterMountain and Life Like locomotives are giving me good solid service and performance.    Just saying!

Presently, I have some older Atlas switches and switch machines in a hidden stub end yard.    They will be powered-up with a Radio Shack, 12 volt AC system.    If not satisfied with their performance they will get jerked out of there, trashed and new Peco switches put in with under the table mounted switch machines.   I won't be using the A approved,  blue slider momentary on switches but DPDT's spring loaded to center off toggles.     

I'ma just one of those dammed independent thinkers that frustrates the poojeebie out those who want to teach me a lesson or two.   I let experience, be my teacher.   I make the rules and set the standards for my railroad.    No one else.   Suggesting you do the same and more then willing to share my experience with you.    If you are interested?

Parting thought:   I cold care less about the explanations the A Team uses to justify what, why and the how of things.   More interested in the overall performance of my trains and the track they run on.   I've identified some problems and issues with the A Board and you can run your own test trials and see if you get the same results.    If you get my drift. 

Acknowledging, where would we be in this hobby if it wasn't for Atlas.    Still building our own track, scratchbuilding our own locomotives, printing our own decals, winding our own motors...and etc.      So a shout out of thanks to Atlas.

[hpwrick]

Peteski,

Before I get booted out of here.   I wanted to acknowledge and thank-you for your response and explanation.     We use RMS when installing sound systems, although the power or current is seldom detectable until you get into testing with a micro-multimeter.   The idea of a capacitor is one I've used in the past for lighting purposes.    I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

When it comes to my model railroad I don't want to turn it into an electronics experience.    The less I have to do the better I like it.   And then, when you find out I've wired my railroad to Cab A and Cab B via DPDT's then you are going to shake your head in wonderment because of the time, monotony and boredom it takes to wire such a thing...in.    Sounds like a contradiction...right?

Layout update:    Cab A and Cab B, along with wiring for three reversing loops, one reversing section and one wye are all in.    Tomorrow, I will add in a DPDT center off, between either Cab A or B to open up a pathway for DCC.       All blocks have isolator gaps cut in on both sides of the rail and at each end of the block.   Is it starting too sound complicated?  Actually, the wiring yes but the performance...absolutely amazing.

So, thanks for your response and don't be put off if I don't buy into it.    Just doing my own thing and respecting you, doing your's.   Ahh, and taking notes from what you've shared.    Thinking at some time in the future...if you know what I mean.

Rick, the capacitive discharge supply eliminates of all the worries you have. It will not burn out switch machines whether it supplies 12 or 16 or 18 volts.  It will not burn out switch machines if the button sticks or is held too long.

It only costs few dollars to build and it is not some complicated modern electronic wonder but a very basic circuit using same components which have been used since the infancy of electronics.  Even someone who is all-thumbs when it comes to electronics can easily build one of those units.

As far as your experience goes and the gospel you dispute (from others including Paul Graf from Atlas), there is validity to what they say.  The higher voltage (supplied momentarily) provides stronger magnetic field to move the core inside the solenoid for reliable throwing.  You might just have some really smooth throwing machines and you can get away using 12 volts, but like Paul said, they were designed to reliably throw at a higher voltage.

Actually, the way I see it, the machines were originally designed to work with the voltage supplied by the accessory terminal of all the standard 12V power packs (which have been in use probably even before even you were born).    Accessory terminals are normally powered directly from the secondary transformer winding which also (after being rectified) supplies the variable DC circuit. The secondary winding supplies between 16-20V to compensate for the losses caused by the rectifier needed to convert the AC to pulsing DC.  Makes sense?

No argument with you about how and why Atlas has their switches wired.   I just don't agree with it.   I've had nothing but problems with my Atlas switches wired as to instructions.     Preferring instead, finding it works better  when I use less current from a separate, independent power source.  Did I already say at 12 volts.  Didn't I already cover this?   There is no need to repeat myself at this time.

Thanks again!

[pnolan48]

When I first met Kay's dog, I was astounded that this 60-pound setter could get out of the car at the park and immediately pee as if he had drunk a 12-pack over the past two hours. And then he'd go around, sniff every tree, hydrant and benchpost, and mark perhaps 50 of them with more pee. I'm a curious sort, so I asked my vet about the canine endless bladder syndrome. He told me that dogs always hold an ounce or so of pee just in case they needed to mark their territory.

I believe the case of melting solenoid switch machines was pretty much solved back in 1965 or so, or maybe even 1958, or earlier. You put too much current through a solenoid, and it will melt pretty much every time, sometimes even sending up a miniature mushroom cloud. Usually that happens when you push a button for too long or it sticks. You charge up a capacitor and use it to send a jolt of power to a solenoid and, gee whiz, it throws with a hearty snap. And if you put a resistor in the circuit, then the jolt only happens again AFTER you release the switch.

The voltage to the solenoid is a meaningless measure. Anyone here ever heard of Amps or Watts?

My dog needs to go read the newspaper that is the scents of the park--he can tell what dog was where, what s(he) ate, and how healthy s(he) was, and mark accordingly.

Maybe we should be less like my dog?

[hpwrick]

Gosh...Pete,   

Now I need to go pee.     My cat just marked his spot and got thrown out of the house.    I wonder?

Marking my own territory?   Peeing in a corner?   No, not a good idea...maybe later in life when the brain cells begin to burn out and I don't know better.   Today, I have to live with what I do and no I can't stand the smell of urine in my house.

Yep, 1965 you'd of found me cussing out Atlas for their dag-nab-it switch machines.   No the problem hasn't been solved.  Not back then and not now.   You have to ask yourself...why... is it still happening? 

Anyway, back to the subject at hand.  Those blue slider switches gave me nothing but trouble.    I finally set them up on end so they would pop back out.    Darn things.    Now can you see where I'ma coming from.   Replaced more switch machines then I thought was necessary.    One was the bagging limit.   

Surprised to find that it's still possible and it still happening in 2012.     Hasn't anyone learned anything?

Today, Kato Unitrack #6 switches with the automated solenoid buried in the plastic road bed, occupy the main.    Peco switches handle the yards and industrial spurs.    Atlas, on a very old board, started back in 1992, before the above refinements, handles a stub end yard.    The throws (switch machines, tested 6 years ago) hooked up to a RS  at 12 volts AC power supply worked well...quiet...shhhh.      Hoping they have survived and will give me the service, I'ma praying for.

Thinking, I may go out and wire in, solder my fingers together, the DPDT between Cab B and DCC.    I got's the perfect weather for it.  Do I have the energy?

[peteski]

Rick,
Capacitive discharge power supply for switch machines is one of those simple things which made the old fashioned dual-coil switch machines both safer to use and more reliable in throwing the points.  I know, most of the new-fangled inventions are nothing but overcomplicated crap but this one is one of those that is actually good.    And like I mentioned, they use a capacitor (or maybe "condenser" is a better term for an old-timer like you), a resistor and possible a diode. None of these are any of those new-fangled advanced electronic components. These are some of the oldest and most basic components used since the infancy of electricity.  But if that is too complicated for you to use, so be it.

All I can say is that if Pete Nolan's post didn't convert you then I won't even keep trying anymore.  You're lost cause. 

[hpwrick]

Lost cause?   Did you say lost Cause?    Grin!

No lost cause here, you'd be surprised at how many modelers left the fantasy world of Atlas slider switches to mature to DPDT's and Tortoise Switch machines.     They'd chime in here except they don't want to appear to be supporting what is percieved as a rebel of the cause.    Yep, that be me.   

Moving back to about 1965 to 66.   After nothing but problems operating with Atlas Controllers and the Common Wire.    A friend of my dad's boss stopped by to check out the layout and see how things were going.   A gray beard with years of model railroad experience.   His first words, get rid of the Atlas sliders.    He pulled out of his pocket the first DPDT I ever saw and proceeded to show me how to wire it up.   Later, we started looking at other options for throwing the switch points Ie., Choke Cables, under the table mounts and the likes.    He suggested that if I want to keep the Atlas switch machines I could quiet and slow them down by using a separate AC power supply and produced a early home made built transformer made from RS parts.  Voltage 12 volts and yes, it does matter.  It worked well doing precisely what he said it would do.    Do I need more proof?  I bought some RS momentary on push buttons and installed them.    Funny thing no more melt downs.   

One other frustrating problem among many at the time.   When I was operating a train, at realistic speeds  (difficult to do back then) rolling along at speed, should I activate one of the Atlas switches, via the blue sliders, which was connected to the same transformer on the  AC side of the power supply.    The train would stutter, slow and sometimes stall, noting the slider didn't always throw right away and took some extra nudges to get it to move.     A performance issue I wasn't delighted with.    Incidentally, with todays power supplies, I still see the same unwanted lackluster performance, should I set up a model of such and demonstrate it.   As Peteski, has suggested:  Here a capacitor would help resolve the problem because, it is discharging the current and not the transformer.    Still, I'd be looking for one that discharged 12 volts.

What I don't appreciate,  is that some would be wizards think they all have  the answers but very little experience.   One fella I was following sounded good, until I found out he's never had or built a train layout.    Pardon me but I darn near slammed the door shut...figuratively speaking.     All the engineering science he was espousing, needs to be tested and proven on an actual layout.   Unitl that is done,  I'm suggesting we slow down the information feed.     

We would all like to be the experts here and impress others to follow our lead.    Just don't expect some of us old timers to come along like wiggle waggy, panting dogs.   Not after... years of actual experience and what it has taught us.   If you get my drift. 

Peteski, Pete and anyone else tuned in here.   You should be able to see this isn't a pissing war between you and I or others here.    If anything it's between me and Atlas.    Not a happy customer.

Give me credit:  I identified the problems, we've all worked to gether to resolve it.   I've layed out resolutions that work for me.   

   

   

[Zox]

I use Peco train-diversion devices (I don't dare call them turnouts), and throw them manually. Haven't burned out a coil yet.

[hpwrick]

I use Peco train-diversion devices (I don't dare call them turnouts), and throw them manually. Haven't burned out a coil yet.

LOL   Well put...LOL

That will solve the problem.

[VonRyan]

Why everyone is dissing on the military surplus that atlas sells is confusing me.... I currently have 8 of the remote turnouts wired on my (in need of a new basement sealing) HCD layout and i've never had an issue with any of them, not once, nothing of the sort. The only melting you'll find is only on one of the machines and it is not related to the machine itself... it is from when i was soldering the rail-joiners together with the rail.

Of course having made some flex-track mistakes in terms of curves, i'm going to hopefully refurbish the layout into c55 with sectional track for the curves, thus eliminating any issues with radius and allowing for my Conrail SD70-MAC to round the corners with rolling stock longer than 40'.

On my N-Trak layout however i'm using Peco c80 medium radius (#6) turnouts with their twin coil machine mounted under the module with pin extensions made from brass tubing and steel wire. For throwing the machines i have an old Aurora DC power supply (not a cab/throttle) that puts out 20 volts DC. I also have a CDU that just about doubles the voltage output but due to limitations with space in the panel for my module's "Signal Box" it was not includes, just relying on the 20 power supply. For the 30 NJ International machines that i have in a cozy little cardboard box, i'll probably use a radio shack 15 or 20v power supply with the CDU to give me roughly 30-40v DC for a completely solid and positive throw.

It has been confirmed to me by my N-Trak club's electronics guru who works for L-3 Communications East in Camden, NJ that what would appear to be "excessive" amounts of voltage cannot harm the machines in such a short period of time. It was also mentioned that it probably wouldn't even harm an atlas or kato machine.

Also to note for those wondering, on my N-Trak module's Signal Box panel, i utilize one momentary push-button per turnout and one SPDT toggle switch. This is mostly because it provides confirmation of the direction the turnout is thrown in like an actual Signal Box plus the fact that all the spring-loaded momentary toggle switches i have, can have a tendency to stick, be it for a bit longer than desired or even like there was no spring and needs a little coaxing to go back to center.

This is just my own input as well as my methods.
They work, they're safe, and they're nearly fool-proof.

-Cody F.

[Zox]

Why everyone is dissing on the military surplus that atlas sells is confusing me...

I think it mainly boils down to three things.

• Older Atlas switches had a poor reputation, especially among NTrak users, for being a source of derailments. While their current switches don't share the same problems, the reputation persists.
• The built-in Atlas switch machines, whether manual or remote, bear no resemblance to any real-world railroad equipment, and cannot be easily concealed. Therefore, many modelers avoid them because of the scenic impact, regardless of their mechanical or electrical properties.
• While the Atlas switch machines may be no more prone to malfunction than any other switch machine, if they do malfunction they are very difficult to repair or replace, and generally it requires the replacement of the whole switch. (In fairness, this is true of any switch with a built-in switch machine, not just those from Atlas.)
  

While I do prefer Peco for reasons of appearance and variety (at least in Code 80), I would place modern Atlas switches very nearly on par with them mechanically.

[VonRyan]

I purely meant my statement in terms of reliability as that is what the majority of the conversation has become a debate over, but i'd have to say that older Atlas switches are better in that the normal, straight route was just that... straight. The newer switches, be they left or right, have a curve in the straight section of the turnout that is in the opposite direction of the turnout (so if it's a left hand t.o. the bow is right and vise versa) Why this is so i can only point fingers at the red-lands we know as china. To realize this bow you have to sight it along the straight section and it becomes openly obvious.

If paul is taking notes, this is something in need of much correction. Plus while i'm pointing, i'll reference the fact that It would be easy to have the machines mounted on the underside of the turnout with a piece of styrene between them. You just need to mount a machine for a left hand on a right hand t.o. and the opposite for a left hand t.o. and even though this may seem not as easy from a manufacturing point of view, it isnt hard to brush on some thin CA and place some piece. It sorta like painting people... well... eh...

I get a chuckle out of the ol "piece of discarded military equipment" saying when referencing the atlas machines, but when all's said and done, they are reliable machines. Not as long lasting as a Peco or an NJ International, but still reliable.

-Cody F.

[PAL_Houston]

I think it mainly boils down to three things.
...

• While the Atlas switch machines may be no more prone to malfunction than any other switch machine, if they do malfunction they are very difficult to repair or replace, and generally it requires the replacement of the whole switch. (In fairness, this is true of any switch with a built-in switch machine, not just those from Atlas.)
  

Not so:  the Atlas C80   coil assembly can be replaced by clipping the wires, undoing the 2 (teeny-weeny) screws that hold it in place, replacing the bum coil with a new one, replacing the 2 (teeny-weeny) screws that hold it in-place, and re-attaching the wiring to the circuit.  While keeping track of those teeny-weeny screws is, um, challenging, it is not impossible (if you can actually get to the switch machine in a comfortable position it helps, LOTS) and probably beats changing out the whole switch assembly, especially one that is thoroughly ballasted into place.

Ask me how I know all this.....