The recession and N scale...

[mmagliaro]

Rossford Yard:
I don't think history is going to repeat, the way HO took over O.  I think N gets down to a size that too many people don't feel
comfortable with.  The equipment availability and pricing issues are solved, yes.  But there is a strong human factor.
How hard are they to pick up, handle, and see?   When a newcomer looks at the size of N vs the size of HO, I think
the larger size is something more people simply find more appealing.

Note, this has nothing to do with radius, what you can model in a given space, or any of those typical "N vs HO" factors.

It might be hard for us N Scalers to accept, but HO may just be a more comfortable, intuitive size for people to look at
and play with.  That alone may always make it the most popular scale.

[Brakie]

................A N O T H E R    C H I C K E N   L I T T L E    T H R E A D ..........

Actually those that can see will agree all is not well in  N Scale land.
We get scraps here,there and over yonder while HO keeps getting the new tooling dollars-Athearn as announce more newly tool HO models and zip for  new tooled  N Scale.

Atlas keeps turning out new HO with N scale reruns.

It appears manufacturers is placing their tooling dollars in HO.

Maybe the tide will turn some day.

[Brakie]

The equipment availability and pricing issues are solved, yes.
-------------------------
Not quite..There are  N Scale cars that costs the same or slightly more as their  HO counterparts at full MSRP-sorry but,this doesn't help the growth of  N Scale.

Sound-this seems very popular in HO.

Bachmann has a HO Alco S4 and 2-6-0 with sound for $100.00(at street).No way is  N Scale going to compete with that.

HO switching layouts has seen a growth in popularity-Lance Mindheim has 5 books covering that subject.

[Rossford Yard]

MMag, you could be right that HO is the best"natural" scale for looks, switching, etc.  As Brakie notes, as houses get smaller (general economy, general rebellion against the McMansion era) it is quite possible just to do narrow shelf, HO switching layouts, leaving the long train running to HO modular layouts at clubs.

As to the mfg side, I got an email from Tom at CMT trains this morning, and many of you may have gotten it, too.  Basically, Sandra Kan was the only train factory of size, and the next ten put together don't equal it in production capability.  He says there are about three mid size factories that will do trains, and the rest are very small operations.  They all also have the same cash flow problems as you and me, living month to month.  He claims many of our "bigs" have sent them money for tooling, production, etc. but they used that to do other projects, and need the next months order to pay for this month,etc.

Just another take on the Chinese factory situation, but that is a general supply problem, and not related totally to the recession.  BTW, I do recall Atlas openly telling us on their forum that their strategy to ride out the recession was repaints, to avoid huge tooling costs.  That said, the seem committed to N, with trash cars, street lamps, and several other new offerings to go with the repaints.  Honestly, repaints makes loads of sense to me for Atlas as a business strategy, even if some of us want more stuff, and I in particluar just started a new N scale C55 layout, and need THAT line to keep coming.

[Brakie]

BTW, I do recall Atlas openly telling us on their forum that their strategy to ride out the recession was repaints, to avoid huge tooling costs.
----------------------------
Tickle,tickle tickle..

Yet,they seem willing to invest tooling dollars in new HO and the upgrading of the Branchline cars to RTR..

The facts doesn't add up once you start comparing the newly tooled Atlas HO releases with newly tooled  N Scale since the so called "recession" slow down- in what 2008?

The HO and the  N Scale steel coil car was announced at the same time..The HO car has come and gone and the second release announced.We're still waiting for the first  N Scale run.

As I mention Athearn will be releasing new HO and nothing for  N Scale.

ER finally decided to do a  N Scale waffle boxcar.

I suppose if one likes a starvation diet yeah,N Scale is doing well.

[Rossford Yard]

Brakie,

Well, bellyache about it all you want.  It seems human nature to bitch about stuff, when real evidence is in front of you all the time that things aren't really so bad.

For some reason, I have more than enough locos, rolling stock, structures and track than I could ever buy for my N scale empire, which is pretty big by most standards (10 x 24, replacing an older 12 x 24 layout)

If more new stuff comes out than I can possibly afford to buy, then the only real problem might be that they haven't gotten around to making something very specific I need.  For that matter, there is more new stuff than I would ever consider buying, like all the new passenger cars from Walthers, Rapido, etc.

I will probably regret asking this, but for those who gripe, just what is it you gripe about not having?  And, pray tell, what has this "shortage" actually prevented you from doing?  No layout?  Not realistic enough proto operations, because the cars and locos aren't a perfect match for XX-XX-19XX that you are modeling?  Or just not the "perfect collection? " Or, are you okay but your friends severly handicapped in their N scale efforts?

To be honest, one small reason I switched to N in 1990 was that I felt "everything" was available in HO then.  (laughable now) and I kind of liked the idea of waiting for new releases I thought I needed, like the SD40-2, which finally came.  So, there can actually be some benefits of not having every thing you want NOW.  You would tell your teenagers the same, no?

[Scottl]

I find the endless comparisons to HO rather tiresome.  N-scalers have a lot of great new product and the advantages that come with a smaller scale.  Why can't people just enjoy what is clearly the golden era (so far) of n-scale?

[Brakie]

Well, bellyache about it all you want.  It seems human nature to bitch about stuff, when real evidence is in front of you all the time that things aren't really so bad.
------------------
Actually,I would like to see Atlas release newly tooled  N Scale cars and locomotives like they do in HO on a routine bases.

I'm not wearing rose colored glasses when it comes to  N Scale..

We are getting the short end of a very long production stick.

As far as waiting..

How long is long enough to wait for 2 very common switchers the SW1500 and Alco switcher? 5,10,20,30 years? I dunno.

Maybe Bachmann will release one in  N Scale? That seems to be our best hope.

But,then what do I know since HO vs.  N Scale production facts means nothing?

I'll just love to see more newly tooled  N Scale from the big three.

[Dave V]

Atlas just announced an N scale 89' trailer flat, making it the fourth company in N scale offering RTR 1970s/80s TOFC flats.

Doesn't sound like doomsday to me.

So Larry, after years of making the same complaints, what's your plan?  Leaving N scale?  More scratchbuding?  Start an N scale business of your own?  I ask because in my line of work we don't generally allow people to bitch about the same stuff for years on end without offering some sort of way-ahead.  Granted this is a forum and not a squadron, but I'd love to see more of your modeling and less of the same old same old.  If you have some real ideas, let's hear them.  Otherwise you risk becoming white noise.

My two cents offered with all due respect if irreverently.

[Rossford Yard]

Larry,

Well, I agree in general that we don't have as much as HO.  As any mfg who comes here says, HO sales are 3-4X N sales for any given item, so for them to make the same items in N, it better be a really big seller in HO (or they need some reason to believe sales patterns would be different in N)  So, is it some kind of short stick end, or just the mfgs being realistic about what sells?  Are you asking that someone deliberately lose money just so we can have N scale product we probably won't buy in sufficient numbers, just because we choose N?  Basically, asking for the blue box treatment that failed in HO also? (eventually)

As Dave hints, it does seem there are still releases coming in both rolling stock and locos, if you count Fox Valley, BLMA and others.  If slower (and I'm not sure it is) then the recession is probably to blame, and who can blame the mfgs for that?

Of course, you didn't answer my question as to exactly how that has held back your N scale modeling efforts?

As a locohaulic, and probably as big a loco collector as anyone, I agree that I would like to see more Kato and Atlas loco releases. I still haven't convinced myself its worth buying BMann, LL, Athearn or even Fox Valley locos, although the GP 60 fills a need.  IM is a tweener, with its Atlas drive for me.  While no one cares, the Alco 425 in BRChicago and the SW1500's in Harbor Belt would be great!

I figure I won't ever have the complete IHB fleet without some kitbashing of SD40 to SD38 (not hard) since Kato won't put out a limited appeal proto unit like the SD 38 in N.

I have gotten over the one of everythingitis that I had, even though I model a big city terminal road to justify nearly any loco I want to run.  As I have mentioned before, the idea of seeing XX on any given night hasn't proven as important to just seeing a train run.  And, for most roads, they concentrated units rather than have a few of each on any given division we might model.  So, its easy to imagine that XX road didn't run their XX through South Chicago.  There probably are a few modelers out there for whom it is absolutely essential to have XX to meet their dream layouts.

That said, it still hasn't stopped me from enjoying modeling in N, not one bit.  I figure I will be even happier once my needs are met, although, as alluded, maybe I'm happier now in the waiting mode. 

[lock4244]

Its way better in N than S. We've little to complain about except complaining itself...

[Brakie]

Of course, you didn't answer my question as to exactly how that has held back your N scale modeling efforts?
-----------------
Some of the needs..

As examples:
It would be nice to have a wider selection of modern 18 wheelers in the more common names Crete,Landstar Ranger,Werner Trucking and other such like names.

There are many missing scenery items to include a detailed propane forklift like Clark,Hyster,Toyota.

A SW1500 is a very common switcher that is still in service yet,we have none.

A T-Box would be nice.

As far as reruns how about less short lines?

Seems that FVM had to do the same  IPD boxcar road names that Athearn and MDC release years ago.

BTW..These cars are worthless to the modern modeler and those that model beyond the IPD era.

I too was caught up in the "wow!" factor of  N Scale upon my return but,as I attempted to build a modern freight car roster I started seeing the missing cars that is readily available in HO.

I guess what I'm trying to say is manufacturers seems to be tossing bones our way when they should rethink their production instead of duplicating each other's cars and locomotives in HO.

We are missing a lot of U-Boats and GEs in general.I freely admit EMD seems covered except for a SD40-2 in various phases and maybe a SD18 or SD38/38-2..

Maybe the  N Scale sales just isn't there for the needed ROI on the tooling costs?

But,then we seen ER retool their  N Scale line so maybe the sales are there for the better detailed cars?

So,its back to square 1 on why we keep getting very little in newly tool locomotives and cars.

[Brakie]

So Larry, after years of making the same complaints, what's your plan?  Leaving N scale?  More scratchbuding?  Start an N scale business of your own?  I ask because in my line of work we don't generally allow people to bitch about the same stuff for years on end without offering some sort of way-ahead.  Granted this is a forum and not a squadron, but I'd love to see more of your modeling and less of the same old same old.  If you have some real ideas, let's hear them.  Otherwise you risk becoming white noise.

My two cents offered with all due respect if irreverently.
-------------------------------------------
Maybe I seen things as they are as far as the needed products?

To say one complains is ok as far as I'm concern..

But..

Those that complain the loudest is often heard by the powers that be.

Don't believe that?

Look no farther then HO to see where complaining years ago has lead to.

Today we have those highly detailed cars and locomotives that was sought after years ago.

None of us complainers needed to invest in anything other then rewarding the manufacturers by buying their new and improved models that we asked for.

Its sad  N Scalers doesn't see that.

But..

Maybe some do and complain because we have seen arrival of detailed freight and passenger cars and truck mounted couplers.

Then there was pilots added to the locomotives,improved drives etc.

No complaints-no improvements.

[wcfn100]

So,its back to square 1 on why we keep getting very little in newly tool locomotives and cars.

1. China.  By now if you don't get that China has held up production on locomotive across the board, then you just choose to believe what you want and simply won't listen to facts.

2. Has there been a period of five years that saw more newly tooled (announced or released) cars than these last five?

Jason

[DKS]

Actually those that can see will agree all is not well in  N Scale land.

I guess I'm completely blind, then, because I do not agree. And frankly too busy to keep up with those who choose to chew the same old gristle rather than do something about it other than suck up bandwidth.

Note, re: N vs. HO... the market sizes are different, so there will be different responses to it. The larger the market, the larger the budget for new tooling. It has always been this way, and it will remain so until such time as if and when N outsells HO by any substantial amount. Sorry, this is economics 101, not rocket science or doomsday prophecy.