Fan's of PRR brass, hide your wallet.

[Chris333]

I really doubt the Hiawatha lost money. The locomotive can be bought cheaper than a B-mann 2-8-0 and their whole sets are sold out everywhere. They could have charged much more for them.

[towl1996]

Only one guy knows for sure, but there are a hell of a lot of clueless guys who think they know and aren't afraid to say so! 

Cheers,
-Mark

Well, one would infer since his business is still open that if he did lose money it was not detrimnetal to the company. The point being, if a "smaller" company can make a one off engine from a "less" popular road, one would think, with a "widely" popular road like the PRR it wouldn't be that great of a gamble to do a K4 or M1. But, apparently it is.

[SkipGear]

Well, one would infer since his business is still open that if he did lose money it was not detrimnetal to the company. The point being, if a "smaller" company can make a one off engine from a "less" popular road, one would think, with a "widely" popular road like the PRR it wouldn't be that great of a gamble to do a K4 or M1. But, apparently it is.

We've been through this before. FVM didn't just create a loco, it was a complete train. Costs were spread between the loco and cars. If you sold a loco, you sold cars also so the risk was less than just selling a unique loco. The rest of the train gave the loco purpose. I would have never bought just the loco but the loco and cars makes a very attractive train.

[mmagliaro]

Are you suggesting that no one loves PRR?... 

Ha... No.  But I am suggesting that no manufacturer loves the PRR enough to sacrifice profit to make one.

[rtroop]

Ha... No.  But I am suggesting that no manufacturer loves the PRR enough to sacrifice profit to make one.

Perhaps not in N but it depends on the scale and the geographic area of the country. The Mid Atlantic Eastern states are a hotbed of O Scale 3 rail operators and I’m not talking about your fathers O-27 around the Christmas tree Lionel trains. Mike’s Train House (MTH) is a major manufacturer for this market.  As an example they have produced the following scale, highly detailed PRR steam engines which feature die cast metal locomotives and tenders with many separately added detail parts:
A5, 0-4-0
B6, 0-6-0
D16, 4-4-0
E6, 4-4-2
G5, 4-6-0
H10, 2-8-0
I1, 2-10-0
J1, 2-10-4
J1, 2-10-4
K4, 4-6-2
K4, 4-6-2 Streamlined
L1, 2-8-2
M1, 4-8-2
Q2, 4-4-6-4
S1, 6-4-4-6
S2, 6-8-6
T1, 4-4-4-4 Prototype
T!, 4-4-4-4 Production Model
MTH also produced the following Pennsy specific electric motors:
B1, 0-C-0
DD1, 2-B+B-2
E44, C-C
FF1, 1-C=C-1
FF2, 1-C+C-1
GG1, 2-C+C-2
L5, 1D-1
P5a, 2-C-2 Box Cab
P5a, 2-C-2 Streamlined Cab
MP54, Mu Cars
MTH also produces the full gamut of diesel locomotives including the BF-16, Baldwin Sharks, LH-25, Lima Hamilton Transfer Units and the GM Aerotrain.  The most recent of the locomotives can be operated on AC, DC, DCC or MTH’s propriety Digital Command System and can be easily converted to 2 rail operation.

That's 18 Pennsy specific Steam Engines, At least 10 Electric Motors and many many Diesel locomotives.

So where there is a market, Pennsy models, (including unique ones) are produced .

[mmagliaro]

I absolutely agree.  And for years, Bowser made all those HO PRR steam models, even in kit form, and sold them
successfully for decades.
But I think N is a different market.

-- Max

Perhaps not in N but it depends on the scale and the geographic area of the country. The Mid Atlantic Eastern states are a hotbed of O Scale 3 rail operators and I’m not talking about your fathers O-27 around the Christmas tree Lionel trains. Mike’s Train House (MTH) is a major manufacturer for this market.  As an example they have produced the following scale, highly detailed PRR steam engines which feature die cast metal locomotives and tenders with many separately added detail parts:
A5, 0-4-0
B6, 0-6-0
D16, 4-4-0
E6, 4-4-2
G5, 4-6-0
H10, 2-8-0
I1, 2-10-0
J1, 2-10-4
J1, 2-10-4
K4, 4-6-2
K4, 4-6-2 Streamlined
L1, 2-8-2
M1, 4-8-2
Q2, 4-4-6-4
S1, 6-4-4-6
S2, 6-8-6
T1, 4-4-4-4 Prototype
T!, 4-4-4-4 Production Model
MTH also produced the following Pennsy specific electric motors:
B1, 0-C-0
DD1, 2-B+B-2
E44, C-C
FF1, 1-C=C-1
FF2, 1-C+C-1
GG1, 2-C+C-2
L5, 1D-1
P5a, 2-C-2 Box Cab
P5a, 2-C-2 Streamlined Cab
MP54, Mu Cars
MTH also produces the full gamut of diesel locomotives including the BF-16, Baldwin Sharks, LH-25, Lima Hamilton Transfer Units and the GM Aerotrain.  The most recent of the locomotives can be operated on AC, DC, DCC or MTH’s propriety Digital Command System and can be easily converted to 2 rail operation.

That's 18 Pennsy specific Steam Engines, At least 10 Electric Motors and Many Man Diesel locomotives.

So where there is a market, Pennsy models, (including unique ones) are produced .

[John]

Maybe N steam is just too hard to keep running ...

[dougnelson]

I have had Kato, Bachmann, and Key brass steam locomotives running well for years.  If they are made well there should be not problem keeping them running.

[robert3985]

Maybe N steam is just too hard to keep running ...

I run UP steam (Big Boys, Challengers, Consolidateds, Light Mikes, FEF's) in both plastic and brass.  I don't have ANY problems with them running as well or better than my diesels through my code 55 and 40 trackage with hand-laid turnouts.

Cheers!
Bob Gilmore

[bbussey]

As Tony said up-thread, we've been through this before.  I truly don't understand why this topic resurfaces every three months or so, particularly on this forum that has a more mature and realistic membership than all the other railroad forums out there.

The key for the Milwaukee Atlantic is that a) the Hiawatha consist also was released to complement it; b) it was reasonably priced; c) it never had been done before, and d) the option of releasing many alternate paint schemes is available.  But for every successful passenger power/consist set that has been released in recent years (Hiawatha, Cal Zephyr), there is one that has not been as successful (Broadway Limited, City of LA).  So to believe that PRR steam would sell on the mass market simply because 24 people with a ton of disposable income over-bid on eBay for two brass models with sub-standard operation is a stretch.

Again - if any of the manufacturers thought that they could recoup the investment on tooling a PRR steam engine, specifically a K4, it would have been done already.  But selling 5,000+ units with a higher MSRP to cover the amortization across that short a run is highly improbable.

[Dave V]

Can we call it done now?

Even as a Pennsy steam guy I'm exhausted of the same debate month after month.  No new insight is ever brought to light; just the same old arguments and complaints.

How about more threads on building Pennsy steam?  On my short list after I work some structures is to make a better H10sb than the one I built a few years ago.

[Bob Bufkin]

Well Dave, I think you just got your idea for an article - converting a loco into a PRR steamer.

[Dave V]

Bob,

I already did an article on an H10sb conversion in the NTrak steam book 2007 compendium.

[spookshow]

Can we call it done now?

We can try, but I'm pretty sure this thread will crawl back out of its grave the next time a brass Pennsy steamer sells for $3K on eBay. Pound a stake into it, shoot it with a silver bullet, shake a dead chicken at it - it doesn't matter, some debates just refuse to die (insert "laughing hysterically" emoticon here).

Cheers,
-Mark

[Dave V]

I'm all for a heads' up when Pennsy brass is on the 'Bay, don't get me wrong.  I'm still in the market for the right loco at the right price.  Just tired of the debate that always comes along with.