The Burlington C&I Sub

[PAL_Houston]

That's a real eye-catcher of a scene Paul... Very well done.

If you weather your trains/buildings you'll take it up a notch.

Thanks, Michael.
Before I get into weathering, I am going to have to do a bunch more basic scenery, and some remedial work on some ofthestructures.
I also need to get a lens that will give better depth of field.

[PAL_Houston]

As it stands today, I have built 6 of the 9 modules needed to complete the C&I Sub as a single-level layout, with staging.  What remains to build are the Flag Center module at the southeast corner of the layout (which comprises the Flag Center wye, and the return loop; see Post #4 above) and the staging modules. 

Here is an amended version of the plan that is somewhat more current:



However, before committing to building the remaining modules, I am going thru an exercise to fully consider the pros and cons of and alternative, which is to build a helix down to a lower staging level.

Here are the current versions of my alternative plan for the upper level with helix:



and for the staging level below:



What differs between these versions and the versions earlier shown (in Post #11) is that the 2 versions have more commonality on the main level and the helix version has been better anticipated in the single-level design; and the helix version also now accounts for the existence of the structural features of the existing layout in the design of the lower level.  The current helix design is based on 16.25 and 17.5-inch radii Atlas Code 55 track.  Correspondence with Ashlin suggested that they could drop 21.25 inches at 2% grade using 9.5 turns.  As noted in another thread, I still have a number of residual concerns about the helix design, especially concerning establishing and maintaining helix alignment vertically and laterally, and also about establishing smooth transitions into and out of the helix.

At the moment I am starting to put together a comparison of pros and cons for the various alternatives, enroute to making a decision about which way to go on this.    I will share that list when after I make...

In the meantime, I have gotten some input from TRW members via separate thread, and I also have been in touch via PM with a couple of folks who have built and operate their own helixes about their considerations and experiences, and they have graciously provided me their insights.  Anyone else care to join in, your comments and thoughts are welcome!

[PAL_Houston]

Here is my listing of pros and cons for the 2 alternative concepts for staging on the C&I Sub:
I am trying to be as objective as possible, and to list pros and cons for each of the principal considerations.

Here is what I've come up with:



Comments welcome!

[PAL_Houston]

After giving the decision thorough consideration, I decided to proceed with staging on the main level, rather than on a lower level with a helix.  This is simpler, cheaper, and will tell me a lot about how much staging I really need, or whether this will be enough.

That decided, last weekend I built the module for Flag Center, which will function as the eastern end of my C&I Sub, and the entry to a separate staging module (as yet to be built).



You will note that the plywood surface of this module is at the same level as the foam board on the adjacent module.  I did this so that, in the event I do eventually decide to build a helix, I can use the plywood surface of this module to form the approach ramp for a helix.  In fact, I located the potential axis for the helix I would use, and then I pre-scribed the relevent radii for the track centers and the helix ramp inner and outer edges.

At the moment I am debating whether to cut out the helix inner radius to provide better access to the return loop and siding that will be against the back wall.  The competing consideration is that in the single-level design that I am building, the Rockford branch cuts right across this area on its way to staging.

Don't you just love compromises?

The other thing is that, I will basically have to live with a broader radius return loop for a while, until I can lay my hands on a few turnouts that I need but don't have on hand. 

[PAL_Houston]

Temporary return loop is in place, until I can acquire the track I need to lay to plan.



Also, since this pic was taken I added a couple more cans and LEDs to the lighting tracks, in order to brighten up this part of the room.

While waiting for Atlas to come thru with my track I have some scenery work I will do.  Especially, I have several grade crossings I need to work on that I have been putting off because it is so messy.

Also, I can build the staging module.

And, I suppose I can run some trains too! 

[zephyr9900]

...half-way between Ft. Worth and Dallas...

Paul, what a fantastic layout!  I'm another Burlington fan, in Flower Mound, probably not far from you, in the early planning stage of an N-scale Q layout of my own, representing the former Ashland-to-Schuyler branch in eastern Nebraska.  I notice that you have a 2-foot wide aisle in front of Mt. Morris.  Is that working out OK for you?  I've never built a layout before (can't really count an NTRAK module...) but most of what I've read points to aisles 30 inches on up.  Aisle width for me will be important because it will be a factor in choosing between a turnback-blob vs. a dead-end peninsula jutting out into my room.  Thanks for any insight you can provide.

Randy

[PAL_Houston]

Paul,... I'm another Burlington fan, ..in the early planning stage of an N-scale Q layout of my own, ... I notice that you have a 2-foot wide aisle in front of Mt. Morris.  Is that working out OK for you?  ....  Aisle width for me will be important because it will be a factor in choosing between a turnback-blob vs. a dead-end peninsula jutting out into my room.  Thanks for any insight you can provide.

Randy

Hi, Randy:

2 feet is OK for me -- although I have put on a bunch of weight as I've aged (and especially after I quit smoking  ) the 2 feet aisle width does allow good access.  The problem is when I have friends over to operate or just to view the layout, the aisle spacing restricts movement.  Fortunately most of the people I know are pretty trim and so it hasn't been too much of an issue yet, like it may be if I start serious operating sessions.

I guess my mantra should be: "Don't you just love compromises?" 

PM me if you want to discuss further.

[PAL_Houston]

I've started planning a block detection and signalling system for the C&I Sub.  I have been using JMRI Panel Pro to do this.  Among other things I like about Panel Pro is that it allows you to build and test the signalling logic.  The image below shows a diagram corresponding to the C&I Sub, along with the notional locations for the block detectors and signals that I have inserted so far... There are lots more signals to be added if I go whole hog on this! 






I am planning to use Digitrax BDL168 block detection and SE8C signal controllers for this.

It will be a major project, and have to be executed in phases.  I have not been wiring the turnouts for position detection or remote or computer control.  And that may be the first step in all this.  At the moment I am leaning toward using a separate Loconet for the switch signalling and control.  What I may do is start at Galena Jct at the west, and work my way around the layout a bit at a time.  We'll see!

[bdennis]

Paul,
Its coming along nicely.

Just to comment on info you provided.
"I have not been wiring the turnouts for position detection or remote or computer control."
I think you will need to wire for managing the turnouts in order for the panel to know the state so it can set signals appropriately.
If your not going to drive the main line turnouts via the SE8C's or DS64's you will need sensors to know the state of the turnout. I have done this on my own layout and assisted with a few others and all the mainline turnouts are powered and driven via Tortoise and the SE8C's / DS64's / DS54's in order for the signaling logic to work. There are no sensors added to the tunouts, in order to overcome this, I simply set up a route in Panel Pro that I run when I start the panel so that each managed turnout is in a known state and from then on Panel pro tracks them.

"At the moment I am leaning toward using a separate Loconet for the switch signalling and control"
Im not quite sure why you would need to do this. The loconet is very robust and can handle both running trains via throttle inputs and managing turnouts and signals on the one loconet. My own layout and others much larger than what you are planing use a single loconet with no issues with the amount of traffic.

Regards
Brendan.

[kc9jts]

I've started planning a block detection and signalling system for the C&I Sub.  I have been using JMRI Panel Pro to do this.  Among other things I like about Panel Pro is that it allows you to build and test the signalling logic.  The image below shows a diagram corresponding to the C&I Sub, along with the notional locations for the block detectors and signals that I have inserted so far... There are lots more signals to be added if I go whole hog on this! 






I am planning to use Digitrax BDL168 block detection and SE8C signal controllers for this.

It will be a major project, and have to be executed in phases.  I have not been wiring the turnouts for position detection or remote or computer control.  And that may be the first step in all this.  At the moment I am leaning toward using a separate Loconet for the switch signalling and control.  What I may do is start at Galena Jct at the west, and work my way around the layout a bit at a time.  We'll see!

Paul,

Glad to see some more progress on this.  One question: at the lower left corner (I think the west end of Savanna) it looks like there are two eastbound signals at the west end of the yard both on the bottom track.  Is one of those intended to be on the top track?

NBT

[PAL_Houston]

Paul,
Its coming along nicely.

Just to comment on info you provided.
"I have not been wiring the turnouts for position detection or remote or computer control."
I think you will need to wire for managing the turnouts in order for the panel to know the state so it can set signals appropriately.
If your not going to drive the main line turnouts via the SE8C's or DS64's you will need sensors to know the state of the turnout. I have done this on my own layout and assisted with a few others and all the mainline turnouts are powered and driven via Tortoise and the SE8C's / DS64's / DS54's in order for the signaling logic to work. There are no sensors added to the tunouts, in order to overcome this, I simply set up a route in Panel Pro that I run when I start the panel so that each managed turnout is in a known state and from then on Panel pro tracks them.

"At the moment I am leaning toward using a separate Loconet for the switch signalling and control"
Im not quite sure why you would need to do this. The loconet is very robust and can handle both running trains via throttle inputs and managing turnouts and signals on the one loconet. My own layout and others much larger than what you are planing use a single loconet with no issues with the amount of traffic.

Regards
Brendan.

Thanks, Brendan.  I need a mentor to point out all this stuff that I don't know to ask about!!  Right now a lot of the turnouts are actuated from DPDT panel switches with indicator lights.  I think I'd like to retain that type of capability.  How have your gone about integrating or transitioning from manual panel-based actuation to computer based actuation?  Do you still have local ability to actuate turnouts via panel-based switches?

Also, it's nice to know I don't need 2 Loconets.

[PAL_Houston]

Paul,

Glad to see some more progress on this.  One question: at the lower left corner (I think the west end of Savanna) it looks like there are two eastbound signals at the west end of the yard both on the bottom track.  Is one of those intended to be on the top track?

NBT

NBT:  thanks for your interest.  Yes there are 2 EB signals at the west end of Savanna yard.  One mast is for the cross-over and one mast is for the yard entry.  I haven't put in signals to guard the yard exit yet.

There is only one mast for the WB Main to guard the cross-over.

[bdennis]

Paul,
More than happy to help.. PM sent.

Regards
Brendan.

[PAL_Houston]

It's been a very busy summer, and so not much progress on the C&I Sub in the last 3 months.  Over the last couple of weeks I have managed a few hours here & there and have used that to build the staging module, and a connector module to link staging to the Flag Center module.

The staging module is approximately 9 feet of 1x12.  Unlike everything else, this is attached directly to the wall studs with heavy duty shelf brackets and 1/4-inch lag bolts.  I have glued cork sheet to the top of the shelf and eventually will lay 8 staging tracks on 1-1/2 inch centers,  using a bunch of turnouts which are STILL on back-order from Atlas, and the batch of ME flex that I acquired because I was tired of waiting on Atlas for that too.




I have also started re-laying some of the track on the Flag Center module.  Some of this is more or less in its final configuration, and some of it won't be until (you guessed it!) Atlas finally delivers my back-ordered track.  In the meantime, I will need to spend some time extending the power circuits and adding Tortoises and a switch-control panel for the Flag Center module.



I also ordered and received a BDL-168 occupancy detection module.  Although my office computer cratered a month or so ago, I was reasonably fortunate about recovering files:  a friend was able to recover a bunch of stuff from the old  hard-disk, including my JMRI files, including the preliminary designs for layout signalling and my decoder-Pro files.  But I am still needing to install some software on the new computer, including JMRI and etc. in order to be able to use all the old files, so I am floundering a bit on the front.

But, I still have the old computer box, and with a little bit of additional investment can use that up in the layout room!  (proverbial silver lining in the dark cloud that just blew past!)

More soon, I hope!

[PAL_Houston]

I can't believe I haven't posted anything since September:  time really flies during football season, don't it? 

But, owing to being "iced-in" Friday, Saturday and Sunday this past weekend, I spent some quality time working on the Flag Center and temporary staging modules for the C&I Sub, trying to make good on completing some work that's been in process this Fall (while watching football, of course!)  Here's an update of stuff I've been working on:

I completed wiring the switch panel for Flag Center, tested it on the bench, and then installed it in the new fascia on the Flag Center module.  The fascia itself is itself a fairly recent and previously undlocumented addition to the layout:



This switch panel operates the turnouts at Flag Center, which in the real thing (prototype) is the western termination of dual-track mainline from Aurora and Rochelle on the eastern side of the Rock River, and is also the wyed entry to the Rockford branch that was used by both CB&Q and (owing to trackage rights) MILW.  On my layout, the Rockford Branch is a 3rd entry to (same-level) staging, that (will eventually) permit trains to be turned more readily; and Rochelle is omitted (or is a part of staging if you want to look at it that way).  The swithc panel also is intended to operate the staging-entry turnouts from the mainline at the front of the layout, and from the (mostly-hidden) return loop along the walls.

The main challenges with building this particular switch panel were related to a bad batch of LEDs, and a multi-meter lead that went to open circuit owing to long use or abuse.  This series of snafus of course caused me all sorts of consternation (and erroneous conclusions, followed by voluble and voluminous 4-letter words, strung together into unrepeatable expressions of frustration) trying to figure out why certain circuits weren't working!!  I am still learning patience, albeit a bit slowly.

Anyway, after achieving satisfactory results in testing the panel, and installing it, I then also wired in the 3 of the 8 tortoises  that are already permanently installed in this area of the layout... the other 5 tortoises won't be installed until the permanent track is laid, and I am using manual ground throws temporarily.

That's not all that's temporary, at this point.  I also had enough lefthand turnouts and flex track in stock to put together a temporary 4-lead version of staging:



What I hope to achieve by building out some temporary staging is to start getting a feel for what an operating session will be able to do, given the staging I have (or plan to have) and also the (hidden) sidings on the north and east walls of the layout (see track diagrams in preceeding posts), and also visible sidings (Oregon, Galena Jct.), branches (Mt. Morris) and yards (Savanna).  I hope to have some time to start experimenting with limited op. sessions these coming holidays.

More soon, I hope!  Your comments and questions are welcome!