Tehachapi, BC

[Chris333]

The Z jigs don't come milled out. Tim Waris saw us talking about the milled jig over in the Trainboard Z scale forum and actually sent the guy a new "factory" pre-milled jig. He also said that anyone could order them that way if a special request was made.

[Andrew Hutchinson]

Sorry Gary, I'm not having much luck with my scanner this evening. 
I'll try again next time I'm on the computer.

In one of your previous messages you note  flexing of the point end and the failure to engage the stock rail properly in some instances. In my own experience I found inconsistent fitting points to be largely the result of not being able to see what was going on and then rectify the situation because of space limitations, large tools, etc and in a round about way this set of circumstances made me rethink the need for solid points. With separate points you can file and fit as much as you need before anything is set in stone.  I found this flexibility very handy, but some might not . The downside is figuring out how to get reliable power to the points once they are broken and wipers or jumpers seem to be the answer but each has its own set of consequences. For example wipers are not 100% reliable and jumpers require special laying out if the points are to be easily dissasembled  for maintenance , afterall, why destroy a detailed model because one part failed? If you can navigate that you should be home free relatively speaking. If you get there let me know the area code.

Now back to that closeup of the point that supposedly didn't mate up correctly with the stock rail. What I saw was a point that was a little on the tall side at the headblocks. This can happen out of the blue, there being a variance in the build up of solder, differing railheights etc but this can be fixed by reducing the height for a short distance so that the wheels track smoother. To accomplish this  with separate points I would pull the point out of the turnout and file a slight vertical curve along the headblock end of the rail .  Next step would be to bevel the underside of the stock railhead  for about 10' much like the prototype would do and mirror it  on the non running side of the point. This should help nest the two rails together. You can probably do most of this with a barrett file if working on solid points. I remove material from  the stock rails beforehand with a skrawker ground to shape and so most of the filing I do is on the backside of the point itself and mostly on the bottom which you won't have to address since the stock rail base is eliminated on fastrack turnouts.

Anyways that is the best I can think of at this hour. I'll send you a GN drawing showing the cuts that I exagerate on account of the ME rail profile.

Andrew Hutchinson

[MichaelWinicki]

Gary,

I can't help you at all with the turnouts since I have never built one myself.  However, being a fan of the Atlas #10 turnouts I'll admit they have some issues, buy your scratch built one next the to the atlas one looks far better!  It almost makes me want to try and scratch one or two just to see what happens!

Always enjoy reading your updates Gary!

Mike

I've got many of the Atlas #10's myself.  I found that if I didn't have point-issues right out of the package, then the switches hold up well.  Mine are used almost everyday and are trouble free.

Properly weathered, including the metal parts that connect the points to the throw bar, improve the appearance a great deal.

I also like the admittingly large spike-heads holding the rails in place... I think they just look right when transitioning from flex track that also uses the same spike-heads. 

My FT turnouts have had their own issues over time with throw bars breaking free from the points.   

[GaryHinshaw]

Thanks for all the follow-up info guys - feedback like this is the best reason for having an Engineering thread here.

While I'm waiting for the proto:87 parts to arrive, I think I'll make an FT turnout with hinged points and try out some of these filing ideas.  Regardless of the details, I think I'll go with hinged points because they should be more readily repairable (or replaceable) in the event of failure.

RE the Atlas turnouts, I agree that they should be fine in service if they are in good working order when installed.  However, I've had something like 20% of them have points that came loose at the hinge and/or throw-bar, and one where a point rail actually broke in half.  It's possible that I've just been unlucky (and/or ham-fisted!).  But I may go back to them if I feel that the FT or P87 options are no more reliable, since that is my highest priority.

Cheers,
Gary

[MichaelWinicki]

Thanks for all the follow-up info guys - feedback like this is the best reason for having an Engineering thread here.

While I'm waiting for the proto:87 parts to arrive, I think I'll make an FT turnout with hinged points and try out some of these filing ideas.  Regardless of the details, I think I'll go with hinged points because they should be more readily repairable (or replaceable) in the event of failure.

RE the Atlas turnouts, I agree that they should be fine in service if they are in good working order when installed.  However, I've had something like 20% of them have points that came loose at the hinge and/or throw-bar, and one where a point rail actually broke in half.  It's possible that I've just been unlucky (and/or ham-fisted!).  But I may go back to them if I feel that the FT or P87 options are no more reliable, since that is my highest priority.

Cheers,
Gary

Yeah, I've had a few of the Atlas switches fail at the hinge (I think it's been 8 out of 100).  I gotta say the first one was pretty frustrating because I figured that I had to replace the entire switch, which wasn't a ball of fun.  I mean, once you've glued them in place, the last thing you want to do it rip one up.

After I replaced the defective one, I got to looking at it and determined that I probably could have simply dropped a wee-bit of solder at the hinge and that would ensure that the point wouldn't go anywhere and of course ensure power throughout that part of the switch.  The question was, would it be flexible enough to allow the switch to be thrown?

Well on the next one I found that had failed, I did exactly that– and it worked like a charm... and yes the switch could still be thrown.  And that's how I've fixed that problem ever since without having to pull the switch up.

Some others hit the washer– on the switch point hinge, on the underneath of the switch, with a little solder before the switch is put in place as extra precaution. 

[GaryHinshaw]

Yes, the point hinges are the weak link, and widening the ends of the point posts so they can't pop out is what I'll do if I go that route.  I'm curious where you applied the solder to repair yours, Michael?  I didn't quite follow your description.

Thanks,
Gary

[MichaelWinicki]

Yes, the point hinges are the weak link, and widening the ends of the point posts so they can't pop out is what I'll do if I go that route.  I'm curious where you applied the solder to repair yours, Michael?  I didn't quite follow your description.

Thanks,
Gary

Here's a pic of an Atlas #5, with the area circled of where I place a small amount of solder.  The end of the point rests on a small brass plate.  The solder secures the point to the plate.

[ednadolski]

One 'advantage' of having your layout propped up against a wall is that certain picture angles become accessible....   




Large image at:  http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o153/ednadolski/Untitled-1.jpg


These are the points on a hand-built curved turnout, approx. 36"/18" radii, with C55 rail and soldered PCB ties.   I made these points first by pre-curving the rail to the right radius, then grinding the angles gently on a benchtop grinder until they started to look about right.   This does eat away the web at the very ends, but I trim that off and put a roundover/chamfer on the railheads at ends of the points, which really helps wheels to transition smoothly from one rail to the next. (It is possible to make out the roundover/chamfer in the full-sized image, tho I apologize for the blurriness.)  I didn't use any kind of reinforcing brass bar, nor did I make any bends in the point rails.  The points are soldered to a PCB throwbar, which is a wide one (actually a regular HO scale size) since drilling a hole thru thru an N-scale throwbar for the tortoise wire makes the throwbar too weak.  The wider throwbar also helps to create a stronger solder joint, and this one has held up under the continuous force of the spring wire from the tortoise without any breakage. The throwbar plus point rails all move together as a single unit when the points are thrown.  The heel ends are held in place by a small bit of rail joiner, just enough to keep things in alignment but not to interfere with movement.  Even tho they are free to move, it is not loose or floppy. The gaps between the point heels and closure rails looks a bit large in this image, but are no worse than any of the expansion joints all over the rest of the layout.   Next time tho I will make those a bit more snug.   

Ed

[GaryHinshaw]

Thanks for the photos Michael and Ed, I appreciate the input.  Ed, is that the turnout for the set-out track at Walong?  I have a hook in my plan for the same spur but haven't tried to lay out a template for it yet.  How did you arrive at 36" for the outer radius?

I took a break from turnouts over the weekend to get over another psychological hurdle: gluing track down.  I got about 20' of mainline permanently affixed along the east slope, using the 'peanut butter' glue I mentioned in an earlier post.  (I really like working with that because it has a high tack, but you can work it for an hour or so after application to fine tune any kinks, bends, etc.)  The finished bond is incredibly strong, meaning any changes will require new cork & track, but I'm ok with that.

I also did some more performance testing and I'm starting to worry about running long trains down-grade without rear helpers for braking.  Lots of sideways play on head-end couplers as the train bunches up.   Looking forward to finishing a full loop around the top shelf so I can do some more thorough testing.

-gfh

[ednadolski]

Yep, that's the Walong stub siding.  From what I understand, the proto used to have a double-ended siding there, but the western-end turnout was removed somewhere around the 1940s or 50s (not exactly sure when).   I originally used an Atlas #5 turnout but had some problems with it, so I decided to do the curved turnout.  I photocopied a Peco curved TO as a template as it seemed to fit the location well enough. It would have been better to do a curved TO from the start, since fitting the straight one compromised the geometry of the approaching tracks.  It's more sharply curved and more of an S than I would like, but the trains still run thru there OK.   Nowadays Atlas has the C55 curved TO which might be worth a look (assuming it avoids the quality problems of the #5).

I've seen a similar issue with the downgrade trains bunching up.  Truck-mount couplers are definitely less forgiving in that scenario.  One thing which seemed to help was to speed-match all the locos (using the Trainspeed speedometer) and then set the DPUs to run a few scale MPH slower than the lead locos.  It's not an ideal fix, since I've found that the speed calibrations tend to drift over time, esp. if the locos sit for a while.

Ed

[C855B]

Yep, that's the Walong stub siding.  From what I understand, the proto used to have a double-ended siding there, but the western-end turnout was removed somewhere around the 1940s or 50s (not exactly sure when). ...

Hmm. The removed switch must've been right where that berm bumper currently sits. So it was pretty much a setout track like it is now rather than a siding. Since that switch would have been on the downhill side, I'll betcha they had more than one runaway, hence the stub-ending. I'll wager that it was probably done in 1952-53, since they had to reconstruct a lot of the railroad through there due to the '52 earthquake.

The little knoll a few feet north - camped there many times - is an undisturbed natural feature, so the track could not have progressed any further than where it is today.

[GaryHinshaw]

Time for a brief update.  I've been biding time until the proto:87 turnout parts arrive, so I decided to go ahead and get started painting rail clips and ballasting the mainline that has already been glued down.  (I plan to finish ballasting before starting scenery because I can't imagine getting neat ballast the other way around.)  By my estimate, I painted about 5000 clips over the past few days.  Sadly that is only about 15' of track...    I started out painting with just the room lights and no magnification.  Towards the end of it, I literally could not hold the brush steady or focus my eyes on the work, so I rigged up my magnifier lamp to finish the job.  I'll use that going forward, and maybe even try an Optivisor.   Based on how this stretch looks in person, the results will definitely be worth it.

I also ballasted about 18" of the east slope mainline, some of which is shown here:



The ballast hasn't been glued down or weathered yet.  I'm planning to give it about the same treatment as my earlier test piece:



though I cut back on the excess ballast between the rails, so it won't be quite as dark as the test piece.

Thanks for looking,
Gary

P.S. On Tuesday, I'm off on my third trip of June, this time to SoCal.  So no modeling this week, but I am planning to hit Tehachapi Friday afternoon and Saturday.   

[GaryHinshaw]

Back from my travels, and I just took delivery of a box of turnout parts from the proto:87 store.  So time for an update on the quest for turnouts.   The basic parts available from proto:87 are 1-piece frogs, planed points, and a throw-bar kit that still has a few issues in my mind.  Here is an overview of a LH #10 that isn't quite finished (obviously):



The ties are Kappler, with 6 PC ties interspersed.  The rail is secured to the wood ties with Pliobond and that seems to be quite solid, so I'm tempted to scale back the PC ties even further because I really don't much care for them (but see below).  If I do scale back, I'll probably use a few strategically placed spikes in their place.  The turnout operates beautifully (even without any guard rails...), so this quest is getting very close.

Here's a close-up of the frog:



The part is a sandwich of 3 layers that forms a one-piece frog with a shallow flage-way.  Pizza cutters will not work with this frog, but no loss there.  Having a 1-piece like this simplifies the build tremendously.  My only complaint is that the web detail is a bit coarse because of the laminated design.  I glued some bolt strips along the sides, but these are all but invisible to the naked eye, so probably not worth the cost & effort.  The other issue was that there was a fair bit of powdery residue that came off during blackening, which made it tricky to get an even finish.

Here's an overview of the point construction (in progress still):



and some (extreme) close-ups of the throw-bar and hinge construction:




Notes:

* Points: these are really nice!  They are milled using the technique Jason noted above and they are very precisely formed.  No issue with a thin weak webbing in this design.  It's also not necessary (or desirable) to file the stock rails with this design.  Between the 1-piece frog and the pre-milled points, there is almost no filing required to build these.  I'm sold.

* Point hinges:  the kit comes with etched parts that slide over the web of the point and closure rail, with a spacer that maintains the correct spacing from the stock rail.  This is a good design that will not fatigue over time, but the hinge is a bit loose, so the point rail can rotate a bit off its base as the points are thrown.  You can see this happening in the right-hand point above.  I might add a standard rail joiner to stabilize the base.  Other suggestions welcome.

* Throw-bars:  this is still in-progress.  The kit comes with a 2-part design: the main throw-bar pushes the points closed using a pair of etched clips that push the web of the point against the stock rail and keep the base of the rail from riding up.   This is a very good (and prototypical) design.  The only issue I'm having with it is that there is too much friction between the wood ties and the base of the points which is contributing to the point rotation.  I think I'm going to replace the head ties with gapped PC ties.  This will give a smoother sliding surface and crudely mimic prototype sliding plates.

The second throw-bar is designed to pull the points open, and this is where I'm still searching.  The points come with a hole pre-drilled in the base of rail, and some versions of the kit have etched clips with hooks on them that engage the hole to pull on the rail.  Alas, this design is not available in N, so one is left to fabricate something else for pulling the points open.  I tried a plastic bar with two wires sticking up through the holes, but there was too much play to be reliable.  The wire shown in the photo works mechanically, but not electrically, so something else is needed.  I'm going to try a basic gapped PC tie soldered to the point base, but I'm open to other ideas.  My main criteria is that it be something I can fabricate in less than an hour...

Getting real close to getting these in production though, and then to finishing off the upper level track work.   

Thanks for listening to my rambles..... 
-gfh

[James Costello]

P.S. On Tuesday, I'm off on my third trip of June, this time to SoCal.  So no modeling this week, but I am planning to hit Tehachapi Friday afternoon and Saturday.   

How was it mate?

[GaryHinshaw]

Very nice, as always!  I spent most of my time trying to get some back-drop panoramas and reference photos, but there was plenty of action to keep up with too.   About an hour before I was to leave on Saturday evening I happened - by chance - to catch the Amtrak Coast Starlight heading around the bend at Cliff.  It must have been detouring off the Coast Line.

If the trial scenes I got with my point & shoot pan out, I may go back at the end of the summer, with a real camera, to take some better shots.

-gfh