Tehachapi, BC

[conrail98]

No. Bena is at the west (RR north) end of the spaghetti-bowl snarl of Tehachapi, and between two significant curves. Nobody's going very fast through there. Anyway, the HSR plan that was just approved by the California Legislature bypasses all that mess with very long tunnels.

Ok, was just a thought and since I don't know the area was unsure of where it was,

Phil

[GaryHinshaw]

Thanks for the great reference photos Coxy and DKS!  In a classic 'what was I thinking' moment I just spent almost 2 days on the hill last week and took ~300 pictures, but not a single shot of a turnout up close!  (What would Freud say?)  So these will be very helpful.

Tim, I appreciate the comments.  I thought for sure that I was going to with Fast Tracks, but the issues I had made me look at alternatives.  My plan is to complete the build of the first p87 turnout (I made some more progress last night), then to have another go at an FT build with the lessons learned from both. Then I need to get back to serious track laying!

To recap, here are the issues I've had with the Fast Tracks:

1. Difficulty getting a clean solder joint with parts in the fixture.  Have you (or anyone else) not had issues with that?  If so, what kind of setup do you use?  I have a 60 W temp-controlled iron, but with a very fine tip.  I think a fatter tip would be better in that setup to transfer more heat, but then there's not much room to maneuver in the fixture.  As long as this remains an issue, the fixture is almost worthless.

2. Delicate points.  The tips of the points in my first build were very thin and fragile.  This is the area I will concentrate most on improving if I do another one -- using the suggestions given earlier. The combination of the thin rail and soldered throwbar was not good: the top of the point would not reliably contact the stock rail when is was pushed from the base of a very thin rail.  This is fixable, but with the p87 parts, this work is done for me.   

By the way, I think the photo I posted is deceiving because the point is not sitting squarely on its base.  I've since improved the hinge to help that a bit.

3. Frogs.  Without the FT fixture, assembling the frog properly requires a lot of care.   Also, with long frogs, I think I'd like to add a floor to the flange-way to minimize wheel drop.   Again, with the p87 parts, that work is done for me.

I like Skibbe's idea of longer p87 points for continuity.  I fired off a note to Andy to see if he's willing and able to accommodate.  In the meantime I'll do a little bit more practice.  Thanks for the feedback all.

-gfh

[ednadolski]

Gary that is one really impressive looking turnout! Before I forget to ask:  what did you use to  paint/stain the wood tries?  The color and texture look great.

Those milled points look really good too.  Still it seems to me that they could further benefit from a bit of 'fine tuning' filing in a few places. I'm surprised to see that the one rail leans over like that.  To me that suggests that either there is too much free play somewhere, or something is pushing the rail into a tipped alignment. A few things that may be worth a look:

 - Are you sure there is nothing underneath the rails anywhere?  Perhaps there is a high spot on a tie or two, or a bit of excess Pliobond (esp at the stock rail base -- hard to see with the points in place)?

 - Are the heel blocks aligned & straight, with no twisting etc?  And are the heel ends of the closure rails likewise soldered flat?  The trimmed rail joiners might be worth a try here.

 - About the only other thing I can think of is, if that second wire throwbar is a bit too long (or not squarely formed), then perhaps that could be enough to push the point rail out of alignment?  Likewise, it may be worth checking the etched throwbars for burrs.

(It's a little hard to tell from pictures, so I'm really just reaching for straws.)

One other thing I noticed working with the P:87 throwbars:  if the etched parts aren't pushed all the way into the plastic strip, then the top edge of the strip can 'float' below the rail base of the stock rails.  This in turn can allow the tip ends of the point rails to sit higher than they should.   Just something to keep an eye out for.

One other question: have you installed any jumpers to the points, to assure electrical conductivity?  The heel blocks or rail joiners may work OK initially, but could develop issues over time, or after painting rails or gluing ballast.

Purism aside, I'm FWIW not convinced that single-piece point/closure rails are a good approach. Even Code 55 rail can be fairly stiff over short distances, and the point rail travel for N scale is comparatively large.   So the stress on any throwbar system will be relatively high.   Also, since the milled points are undercut, there is actually a much smaller surface area to solder to a throwbar, and any solder fillet would likely interfere with the point rail nestling fully up against the unfiled stock rail like it is designed to do. I'll be interested to hear what Andy has to say.   (In the past he's often had backlogs, and I also wonder if there is any concern with meeting a production minimum for a modified part.)

HTH,
Ed

[kiwi_bnsf]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the recap!

1. Difficulty getting a clean solder joint with parts in the fixture.  Have you (or anyone else) not had issues with that?  If so, what kind of setup do you use?  I have a 60 W temp-controlled iron, but with a very fine tip.  I think a fatter tip would be better in that setup to transfer more heat, but then there's not much room to maneuver in the fixture.  As long as this remains an issue, the fixture is almost worthless.

Surprisingly I've had almost no issues with soldering. Not having any prior experience, I followed the excellent Fast Tracks video tutorial on soldering, and opted to use acid paste flux and the solder available from Fast Tracks. I use good quality 35W iron with a 0.5mm conical tip, and this has proved more than adequate to quickly melt the solder and give clean and strong joints. I still find there is quite a lot of excess solder to clean up with a diamond shaped file, but the end result is worth it. I wonder if 60W is overkill for N scale Fast Tracks jig? Fast Tracks recommend a Weller 40W iron. I tried a 55W iron and found the solder "balled" itself rather than tinning the tip — but that may just be a property of the Fast Tracks solder.

2. Delicate points.  The tips of the points in my first build were very thin and fragile.  This is the area I will concentrate most on improving if I do another one -- using the suggestions given earlier. The combination of the thin rail and soldered throwbar was not good: the top of the point would not reliably contact the stock rail when is was pushed from the base of a very thin rail.  This is fixable, but with the p87 parts, this work is done for me.   

I've certainly had issues when filing the point blades with the pointform tool — it usually takes a couple of goes to get a sharp but strong tip on the point. If I get point tip that is too flimsy or fine, I just snip off the end and repeat the filing until I get a perfect one. I've had a few minor issues with the point blades fitting up against the stock rails, but I've learned you can spot these by carefully test fitting before you solder the point rails.

3. Frogs.  Without the FT fixture, assembling the frog properly requires a lot of care.   Also, with long frogs, I think I'd like to add a floor to the flange-way to minimize wheel drop.   Again, with the p87 parts, that work is done for me.

Frogs certainly do take a lot of care, and this is the phase of construction that I spend the most time on, and I've learned a few tricks.

Firstly I make frogs in batches. It is easier to get into a groove and make five frogs in one session, and then you always have a couple to hand when you are finishing a turnout. Making them in batches allows you to get into a groove and really get picky about your filing.

I've found the frog you get from using the point form tool (frog-end) can easily end up being too blunt. This results in a larger gap in the frog, and leads to the wheel drop you speak of.

Daryl Kruse has had similar issues, and uses a #10 pointform tool  to make his #8 frogs a little sharper. I haven't splurged for a #10 pointform or frog helper tool, but I do take special care to make sure that the ends of the rails that form the frog are razor sharp (and almost paper thin). This does require patience, and results in about a 50% failure rate when filing (you end up with a rail end that is too weak or deformed). Again though, the wastage is minimal, and you just snip off the end and keep filing until you get a perfect one. You can do additional fine tuning with a flat file before you solder up the frog.

A nice sharp tip will sit deeper into the frog, and can be tuned to the point that even BLMA wheels don't dip noticeably (but be sure to keep an NMRA gauge and a truck from your oldest Atlas or Kato six axle diesels handy for testing — you don't want to make it too perfect)!



I've had no issues with the solid point rails (i.e. not hinged) being too stiff for a stall motor. The Code 55 rail is very easy to bend, and for a #8 or longer turnout, I can't see this being an issue. The only trick here is to be sure to pre-bend the point rails to perfectly fit the jig (and be careful not to rely on the jig to hold the curve),

(I'm no expert though, as I've only made a dozen turnouts so far).

Cheers

Tim

[ednadolski]

I still find there is quite a lot of excess solder to clean up with a diamond shaped file, but the end result is worth it.

Excess solder sometimes can be cleaned up with a suction tool like this [1].  Not always a great solution, but works OK.   If the solder is not flowing well or is balling up, then sometimes the tip or the work needs to be better cleaned.

Ed

[1] http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00FestHTKWAIcC/Solder-Removal-Tool.jpg   

[wcfn100]

I've certainly had issues when filing the point blades with the pointform tool — it usually takes a couple of goes to get a sharp but strong tip on the point. If I get point tip that is too flimsy or fine, I just snip off the end and repeat the filing until I get a perfect one. I've had a few minor issues with the point blades fitting up against the stock rails, but I've learned you can spot these by carefully test fitting before you solder the point rails.

...

I've found the frog you get from using the point form tool (frog-end) can easily end up being too blunt. This results in a larger gap in the frog, and leads to the wheel drop you speak of.

Daryl Kruse has had similar issues, and uses a #10 pointform tool  to make his #8 frogs a little sharper. I haven't splurged for a #10 pointform or frog helper tool, but I do take special care to make sure that the ends of the rails that form the frog are razor sharp (and almost paper thin). This does require patience, and results in about a 50% failure rate when filing (you end up with a rail end that is too weak or deformed). Again though, the wastage is minimal, and you just snip off the end and keep filing until you get a perfect one. You can do additional fine tuning with a flat file before you solder up the frog.

A nice sharp tip will sit deeper into the frog, and can be tuned to the point that even BLMA wheels don't dip noticeably (but be sure to keep an NMRA gauge and a truck from your oldest Atlas or Kato six axle diesels handy for testing — you don't want to make it too perfect)!

#12, zero wheel drop.

Get off the Fast Tracks teat.

Jason

[wazzou]

Jason, that's nice looking.  Whose is it?   

[kiwi_bnsf]

Jason that's a nice looking #12 turnout — did you make that completely by hand (no jig or filing tools)?

Get off the Fast Tracks teat.

I didn't want to sound like a Fast Tracks evangelist, but I simply would never have attempted hand laying turnouts without their system of jigs, filing tools, and video tutorials. I had zero experience, and no one to teach me the required skills.

I understand they might not be up to everyone's standards, and can definitely be improved upon, but they meet my requirements of being operationally (electrically and physically) sound, quick to build, and relatively inexpensive (I have 50 #8 turnouts to build).

Here's my first attempt:



There is no visible movement with BLMA spines running over the frog, and the insulation gaps seem to contribute most of the noise with metal wheel sets.


…and here is my first custom effort (the two turnouts in front share a common stock rail on both sides):



Cheers

Tim

[Sokramiketes]

1. Difficulty getting a clean solder joint with parts in the fixture.  Have you (or anyone else) not had issues with that?  If so, what kind of setup do you use?  I have a 60 W temp-controlled iron, but with a very fine tip.  I think a fatter tip would be better in that setup to transfer more heat, but then there's not much room to maneuver in the fixture.  As long as this remains an issue, the fixture is almost worthless.

I like Skibbe's idea of longer p87 points for continuity.  I fired off a note to Andy to see if he's willing and able to accommodate.  In the meantime I'll do a little bit more practice.  Thanks for the feedback all.

-gfh

I like the jigs and have a couple custom milled jigs based on prototype CB&Q turnout diagrams (IE a little longer overall).  I actually haven't tried a standard soldering iron in them... I use a resistance soldering setup with tweezer.  Concentrated heat on demand, but you can let off the foot switch and hold the rail in place while the joint cools.  Especially helpful when adjusting gauge or location in small increments. 

I wouldn't try to handlay track without a resistance soldering iron now that I've been spoiled.

Keep me updated on what Andy says.  I'd be in for a couple dozen pairs of extended points, if that helps his interest.
 

[wcfn100]

I didn't want to sound like a Fast Tracks evangelist, but I simply would never have attempted hand laying turnouts without their system of jigs, filing tools, and video tutorials. I had zero experience, and no one to teach me the required skills.

First of all, your turnout looks awesome.

I want to clarify that my comment has nothing to do with preference or standards.  I was specifically addressing the problems talked about in your previous post i.e. wheel drop, ultra thin rails and filing through the rail web.  All of these problems can be overcome by using alternate construction methods.

Jason

[GaryHinshaw]

Tim, those turnouts look fantastic!  Don't forget to start a layout build thread here when the time comes. 

Just to be clear, I haven't had any issues filing the frog rails.  The FT tools work quite well for that job.  The issue I had was that, without the fixture, assembling the rest of the frog is finicky.  I made the flageways *slightly* too wide (maybe 10% larger than the NMRA spec) and with a shallow frog like #10, that produces a large gap between the closure rail and frog point.  I could narrow the gap by re-positioning the rails, but with this one, I just said eff-it and started looking at alternatives.  I'm happy to admit that a machine can make better frogs and points than I can *and* save me time (but not money).  Here's a couple of FT frog close-ups (and a P87 for comparison):




I don't think this wheel drop is a big problem, but it's not desirable.  (And I'm not trying to single out BLMA wheels here!)  The P87 frog avoids wheel drop because of the flangeway floor.

Ed, in the P87 turnout, the ties are stained with Polly Scale Rail Tie Brown (how imaginative...) thinned about 40% with water.  I'll probably give them one more light coat, after I clean up some of that stray glue and solder!  I really like the texture of the Kappler ties.

The tilt in the points is coming from a combination of a loose hinge and some friction against the tie tops.  Since that shot was taken, the hinge was improved by adding a second etched hinge plate to make a stack of two.  (That's how it was supposed to be in the first place).  This fills the rail web more and resists rotation better, though not completely.  The other planned changes are:

* Replace the wire with a soldered PC tie bar.  This will definitely rigidize the points better.  Hopefully it won't have side-effects.

* Replace the wood head ties with PC ties that are smoother (and maybe look like slider plates).  Hopefully I don't need to make *all* the sub-point ties PC ones.

Cheers,
Gary

P.S. No response from Andy yet, but I'll keep you posted.

[wazzou]

Couldn't the flangeway be shimmed with thin styrene in much the same way that Peco Turnouts require for smooth wheel dropless operation?

[GaryHinshaw]

I assume that's a rhetorical question.  Certainly they can, and with the correct width of stock one can use it to place the closure rails in the correct position too.  I would definitely do that with any such frogs in the future.

[Sokramiketes]

In theory the width of the wheel will allow the tread to ride the wing rail on the outside of the tread until the point of the frog picks it up on the inside of the same tread.  If you widen the gap beyond NMRA specs, or use thin tread wheels, then you can get the drop. 

Allowing the flange to ride on a filled frog isn't precise since all your flanges arn't going to be the same depth.  At least not without significant work.

[Sokramiketes]

Just remembered this FastTracks video that illustrates the action through a forg beautifully:

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/videos-a/144.htm?video=MbSmoUH1Cqk&title=How%20The%20Frog%20Point%20Works