Atlas March Announcements

[inkaneer]

Agreed.  First off, it's always been an expensive hobby in context with everything else.  Second, the "wondering how high" comment is unjustified and unwarranted.  No one gets rich manufacturing model railroad products.

You know I am just tickled pink knowing that those 90 ton Atlas hoppers I purchased way back for $2.25 each are now worth $12.95.  Add in some lo pro metal wheels and MT couplers [body mounted, mind you] some weathering and WELLLAH!!! a $40.00 car if there ever was one.  And I know just where to market them too.  EBAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[bbussey]

I wonder how many will have to give up the hobby before companies adapt?  Sucks to be those guys, huh?

I guess is does.  Better that than companies losing money and pulling out of the industry altogether because their product price structure doesn't cover their costs, depriving all modelers of certain product lines in the process.  If people have to debate choosing between paying their mortgage/rent and buying a $100 N scale locomotive, they shouldn't be in the hobby.

Modelers have lower-priced options available to them, which makes the "everything is overpriced" argument a specious one.  Again, the only reason people bitch about it is because the specific models they want are priced higher than what they want to pay.  A viable model railroad can be constructed using Atlas track along with Atlas Trainman and Bachmann equipment.

You know I am just tickled pink knowing that those 90 ton Atlas hoppers I purchased way back for $2.25 each are now worth $12.95.  Add in some lo pro metal wheels and MT couplers [body mounted, mind you] some weathering and WELLLAH!!! a $40.00 car if there ever was one.  And I know just where to market them too.  EBAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

And yet you have absolutely no problem buying ten expensive MTL giraffe cars for speculation purposes, even though the bottom dropped out of the MTL collectible market years ago.

Do you realize those Atlas 90-ton hoppers debuted over thirty-five years ago?  With inflation factored in, buying the model EXACTLY as it was produced then (Rapido couplers, traditional zinc-plated metal wheels) would cost you $9 in 2011 dollars.  Factoring in the new truck tooling, Accu-Mate coupler license, 2011 production costs (better paint and printing with better equipment), and shipping costs easily makes up the remaining $4.

Back in 1976, there were no low-profile wheels of any kind other than the pricey NWSL wheels, so you had to settle for using the Kadee #1000 trucks with ribbed-back wheels and the standard #1023 couplers - add on another $4 for that and the Evergreen styrene or K&S brass sheet that you would need to fabricate a coupler mounting pad.  That puts the price at $24 in 2011 dollars.  Any kind of additional detailing back in 1976, whether a better load or weathering, could easily push the cost to $10, which translates to $38 in today's money.

As I stated before - it's always been a rich man's hobby, so the faux "sticker shock" complaints aren't warranted.  No one is forced to run DCC and incur those additional costs when DC still is a viable option.  And no one is twisting your arm to buy specific product -- whether its buying ten Trainman 90-ton hoppers, or ten giraffe cars.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I think the angst comes from the fact that, for a while, model railroad stuff wasn't keeping up with inflation. For example, while that $12.95 hopper wasn't that much just a few years ago. I feel like the hobby was under the curve for a while, and while it's only just catching up now, the perception is that it's far above now.

It's not about reality, it's about perception.

[Mark5]

For years the yuan was fixed (by China) at an artificially low exchange rate, which favored stuff made in China (ie made it really cheap for us).

Over the past decade there has been a lot of pressure on China to let the yuan "float" like other free market currencies and China has been moving in this direction. This translates into higher cost of product in the USA.

Cost of Yuans in dollars:


This is really basic stuff gents - not sure why so many people have a hard time understanding it ...  :

Mark

[CBQ Fan]

First off, what are the engines those announcements refer to and what is the price differential juxtaposed with their prior releases.  Every locomotive that Atlas makes isn't the same price point.  You can't go by what an RS3 would be priced as in April, followed by what an H-16-44 would be priced as in May.  And what about the number of variations being offered on a particular locomotive, and the number of deco schemes, from month to month?  You're not comparing apples to apples.

Second, the issue isn't what I personally would or wouldn't pay for a locomotive, it's what the market would bear in general.  If the sales decline due to the price point, then Atlas will adapt.  To insinuate that the largest N scale locomotive manufacturer would be forced to leave the market because they somehow would refuse to manage their marketing properly is ridiculous.

Third, it depends on the locomotive and what the appeal is.  If Bachmann ever tooled their Virginian EL-C in N scale and offered it decorated for New Haven, I'd gladly pay more for that model than I would an H-16-44. or one of the steamers.

Fourth, you imply that Atlas quality is somehow sub-standard since you state there are no "major improvements" to justify the price increases.  Name another manufacturer's motive power product line that is noticeably superior in quality.  Atlas maintains state-of-the-art quality in its releases - which of course requires regular tooling modifications that you seem unwilling to pay for.  They also offer body variations and paint schemes that no other manufacturer will do, which you also seem unwilling to pay for.

And finally, I think I pointed this out the last time you went down this road - why don't you ask Atlas directly instead of constantly and annoyingly bringing it up here, where no one can give you the answer you seek?

You just don't get my point.  It is not about what the market will or will not bear.  It is about a concern for a flawed business model.  For example the GM and Chrysler went bankrupt because of a flawed system with their labor force.  Health care expenses skyrocketing, labor wages out of line for skill sets required, inability to adjust labor force as the marker dictated.  Demand for the product can only offset a failed business model so long before things level themselves out.  How long would people be willing to a $1,000 more for the same car as the competition when the product was equal or lessor. 

1) There is no rhyme nor reason behind Atlas pricing.  They won't even tell you the difference between Classic, Master and Trainman.  I asked them...no response.  The latest GP7/9 batchis a master, there is no real difference than the same models I bought in the 90's.

2) If Atlas has a flaw in their business model they may be unable to adapt to the market demands because we won't pay $200 for a Classic U25B.  That is my concern.  So if the market decides they are only willing to pay $25 for any brand new Atlas engine you say that they will adjust accordingly.  That's is ridiculous!  If they are forced to price their engines at a price that people are not willing to pay they are not going to give it away at a loss.

3) We all have that one road name or one engine we would pay almost anything for.  For me it is anthing Q that is not DCC or any new model/paint scheme not released before.

4) I did not imply anything.  You are reading what you want into my comments.  There quality is fine but at some point people are going to expect more based on the price.  Say like little details such as lighted number boards instead of blanked out panels.  Painted handrails, thinner handrails, ditch lights, different colored lights, etc...

And finally I have and have not had an answer from Atlas.  If you follow their forum much they don't interact with the N scale forum much beyond locking new announcements, locking posts they don't like and be sure not to comment on new product announcements.  I am not sure who appointed you as the guardian of Atlas but if you don't like what I say than don't read my comments.  In this case I am responding to others comments.

[bbussey]

You can't see the differences yourself between Trainman, Classic and Master level motive power?  You need someone to explain it to you?  Really?

Even with ignoring your flawed automotive analogy, you're spitting in the wind.  You're position is representative of a minority that has complained about pricing issues periodically over the last twenty-five or so years, whether with Atlas, or Kato, or Micro-Trains, or another manufacturer.  As usual, you miss the obvious points - that you have no idea what it costs to produce a model; that the companies know how to market their products far better than you do; and that the current business model works just fine.  If circumstances dictate it needs to be changed in the future, it will be.

[Sokramiketes]

You can't see the differences yourself between Trainman, Classic and Master level motive power?  You need someone to explain it to you?  Really?

Even with ignoring your flawed automotive analogy, you're spitting in the wind.  You're position is representative of a minority that has complained about pricing issues periodically over the last twenty-five or so years, whether with Atlas, or Kato, or Micro-Trains, or another manufacturer.  As usual, you miss the obvious points - that you have no idea what it costs to produce a model; that the companies know how to market their products far better than you do; and that the current business model works just fine.  If circumstances dictate it needs to be changed in the future, it will be.

Damn Facebook.  I keep looking for the "Like" button in vain on Railwire.   

[CBQ Fan]

You can't see the differences yourself between Trainman, Classic and Master level motive power?  You need someone to explain it to you?  Really?

Even with ignoring your flawed automotive analogy, you're spitting in the wind. You're position is representative of a minority that has complained about pricing issues periodically over the last twenty-five or so years, whether with Atlas, or Kato, or Micro-Trains, or another manufacturer.  As usual, you miss the obvious points - that you have no idea what it costs to produce a model; that the companies know how to market their products far better than you do; and that the current business model works just fine.  If circumstances dictate it needs to be changed in the future, it will be.

Being in the minority does not make me wrong.  There are always going to be more people lacking intelligence than those who have it, so I am fine being in the minority.  The auto analogy is not flawed and if you don't understand it I am not going to take the time to educate you on it.  I have to wonder what exactly makes you the expert and final ruling on any issue anyway?  You have no clue exactly what my knowledge is on marketing and production.  Also my comments have been directed to one company and one product line within that company.  I don't know why my thoughts and opinions get you so upset and fired up but you are really becoming amusing.  You can't argue with the fact that Kato brings to market new products with new tooling at a price that is more competitive than Atlas.  By your line of reasoning companies never go out of business, never have to hire people from the outside to improve/save them, and never make the wrong decision or make a mistake.  You might want to have your water checked.

[Brakie]

The scary part is they keep rising the prices knowing full well there's gotta be a price ceiling or they will join the long list of closed manufacturers that couldn't see their own demise in sight for poor business practices...And I don't see any real improvements..

[Mark5]

Pretty safe bet that "improvements" are not driving the price increases ...

Mark

[SkipGear]

Atlas's cost to manufacture the product is rising, they are passing that cost along to the consumer. Pretty simple and basic business. They are at the mercy of the company they contract to build their products.

Kato controls their own manufacturing facilities. They control the production schedule and control manufacturing costs. All the little things that people seem to have to complain about with Kato, are the reasons their cost is kept down.

#1: Kato's primary market is Japan. The market there is so much larger than the US. This allows them to make MUCH larger production runs and keep production costs down.
#2: Kato only do a couple road names a year on each loco model, then re-run road new numbers on the same names over and over.
#3: They lack the extra details and printing that Atlas has come to be known for.
#4: They stick to the Big Ones, garunteeing larger volume sales.  If you are not interested in the big class ones, they really do nothing that you can use (Passenger equipment excluded) without firing up the airbrush.
#5: The recent trend to building screwless chassis is not a technological leap, it is cost savings on the production line. Snap together in the right jigs builds faster than having to install screws. I bet that alone kept the price in line for a year or so on the newest releases.

BTW - Kato is not imune, their prices are creeping up also. The most recent ACE, the GW Bush, went up to $120 and I forsee future loco's will be right there with it. If you notice, most new releases have a TBD in the price listing. The MP36 is estimated at $110-$120. In all reality, the MP36 is no harder than any of the F units to produce but it carries a $25-35 premium over them.

New tooling costs money, manufacturing costs are going up, labor costs are going up, everybody is effected. Some have better control over it than others. Atlas had the knife stuck in their back when Sanda Kan was slipping, then Kader twisted that knife and thrust it deeper when they bought Sanda Kan.

Sanda Kan/Kader ditched all their small contracts in efforts to streamline (and free up production schedules for their big contracts). Unfortunately, it looks like Atlas is not a big enough fish for Kader adjust schedules for them. It looks like the big winner in this is Athearn and Bachmann. Athearn products, both N and HO have been on time for the most part, even through the turmoil of the take over. Bachmann will not be effected as Kader is their parent company and I'm sure gets preferential treatment. This may give you an idea of just how small the Atlas production runs might really be.

Until Atlas finds or creates a new production source, they are at the mercy of their competitors.

[Sokramiketes]

You can't argue with the fact that Kato brings to market new products with new tooling at a price that is more competitive than Atlas. 

That sounds like a challenge!  Kato doesn't do safety paint on step edges or end railings like Atlas.  Kato doesn't do all the warning labels like Atlas.  Atlas even has select items with separate grab irons applied.  Kato is still doing the same level of paint and lettering as they were 15 years ago, poor color separations and all.  Is that competitive?

[Brakie]

That sounds like a challenge!  Kato doesn't do safety paint on step edges or end railings like Atlas.  Kato doesn't do all the warning labels like Atlas.  Atlas even has select items with separate grab irons applied.  Kato is still doing the same level of paint and lettering as they were 15 years ago, poor color separations and all.  Is that competitive?

And Atlas has some modern road name locomotives that stil have foot boards.

I would be more impress if those modern road name locomotives had their footboards removed and plows installed instead of pretty labels nobody can read.

[sundowner]

Sanda Kan/Kader

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. This is the reason Atlas prices are up, the fluff piece they had for Kader on there web site did not do any good. The bad part is that with the prices of the latest CSX -8, I did not order all that I wanted since they decided to do six different numbers at the same time, I probably pick up the other ones on close out from MBK when the time is right. If they would have done two or three then no problem but six is a bit of a stretch specially at $100-110 street prices.

Atlas really need to get a new manufacturing source because this will hurt them.

[Mark5]

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. This is the reason Atlas prices are up, .

Still not getting how people don't understand that the dollar has been getting weaker against the Yuan ... and that this is driving the cost of anything made in China .... yep, you guessed it - up!

The cost of a Yuan has gone up 24% since 2006.