Lighweight Layout Construction for Ed

[rswinnerton]

Hyperion,
I will bet you money that sitting on the above pictured layout in any position will cause failure of the foam (not the glue).

Personally, I think that building a layout without some kind of wooden base/frame is asking for trouble. I've told Ed this many times and am just biding my time until I can give the remnants of his hard work the 'Simpsons-esque' "Ha-ha!". All it takes is one guest operator to bend over and pick something up and whack their head on the way up and lots of layout damage could be done. (If it's wood framed, he'll just need some Tylenol and a beer)

Russ

[wm3798]

Russ and Dave have it right.  And operating the layout is only half the battle.  I've got the room just about surrounded with benchwork now, and am up there on a nearly daily basis crawling around with a soldering pencil gripped in my teeth, all kinds of tools and other implements of destruction at hand.  I regularly run into the peninsula, which occupies the middle of the floor, and stands right about at gut height.  I shudder to think of what havoc I would wreak if the the primary structure was a pile of foam.

Sure, sticking in a few trees and running a train around poses no threat at all, but coming into the room with an arm load of supplies and misjudging a turn could destroy everything you've worked on.

Or worse, what if Mrs. Model Railroader decides she doesn't need to turn on the light while hefting the laundry basket down to the basement...  I'd go for more is better.

Lee

[Dave Schneider]

9. Can support over 150 ponds of weight (when I fell on it).

Just curious how many members of the CRHS are in this weight class?

Best wishes, Dave

[JDouglasFisher]

Try PVC piping as your frame.
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9. Can support over 150 ponds of weight (when I fell on it).

uummm, when you fell on it? Care to explain how you "fell" on waist level (or higher) benchwork?

J....

[squirrelhunter]

Lee, if your layout was at a more optimal viewing height, you wouldn't have to worry about bashing it with stuff.  ;D

To me there are two big reasons why people overbuild their benchwork- 1st is that it is a holdover from antediluvian days when it had to hold up scenery made with wood, plaster and chicken wire on top of some big heavy O scale equipment. 2nd is that many layout built below chest height are directly in harms way or eventually get used as a temporary table. If you build your layout higher up, you won't whack it with stuff you are carrying.

There is a place for heavy benchwork, but eye level shelf layouts aren't it.

[SkipGear]

I have to agree, most people over build the sub structure. I will be opperating on a basement size layout (designed specifically for opperations) that uses very little if any wood sub structure. Most of the layout is a giant spiral helix around the basement. The layout is supported by shelf bracketing. The verticle posts were offset by equal amounts around the room to maintain the constant grade of the layout. There are brackets about every 2 ft. with luan upside down t-beam screwed to the top of them. Foam module sections then slide inbetween the brackets like drawers. The design tucks the brackets up into the foam so they don't hang below the benchwork and intrude on the scene below. Much of the layout is only 18" deep or so, areas where a the depth increases there is additional bracing.

[wm3798]

The viewing height of my layout is predicated by one of the significant 'givens' I had to deal with, that being the sloped attic ceiling.  Every inch of elevation costs me 2" in horizontal space.  I'm not sure I'd go that much higher either if I had the choice.  I've found that everything is pretty easily accessible, even the deepest part of the layout behind Cumberland (about 4'), and track heights still reach about 42" on the peninsula, and Elkins is up at 54".

It's nice to keep things relatively low.  The yard crews can sit on a stool to do their back and forth work, and Ed can see the whole layout without standing on a box...

Oh, and there was another significant consideration...  I had a pile of lumber on hand that didn't cost me anything.  I think for the whole layout, I purchased one sheet of plywood and some leveling bolts.  The rest was leftovers from working on my house.

[MichaelWinicki]

I think the key factor here is just getting something built... Good, not-so-good... Whatever.

You build it, you learn from it, you tear it down and you build again.


A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-George S. Patton

[wm3798]

A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-George S. Patton

Patton obviously never built a house.  I've always stood by the saying "if you don't think you have time to do it right, what makes you think you have time to do it over?"

Lee

[John]

I use a lot of foam for my layout construction .. in my steel mill area, a good portion of the high line roadbed is going to rest on 1 inch foam sandwich .. ie .. 2 pieces of foam glued together with hot glue for structural stability .. pink foam is easy to use for subroadbed for small areas .. I doubt that I would make the entire layout out of it, unless it's 2 inch .. but hey .. it wasn't that long ago that we used 2x4s and nails for building benchwork ..

[MichaelWinicki]

Patton obviously never built a house.  I've always stood by the saying "if you don't think you have time to do it right, what makes you think you have time to do it over?"

Lee

LOL!

I understand totally Lee.

It's not a huge project that's being contemplated here... Pitch into it and make adjustments if and when necessary.

I mean you've done that with your layout.  You built it, made some mental notes, tore things apart and put it back together again to suit your current mindset.

Nothing wrong with that.

[DKS]

uummm, when you fell on it? Care to explain how you "fell" on waist level (or higher) benchwork?

My N Scale White River & Northern started out as foam on shelf brackets, quite similar to Ed's. It was 52+ inches high, so it was high as layouts go. I kept bumping into it with my shoulders, each time derailing most of the rolling stock, and a couple of times I was leaning over near it and rose up right under it, which was a very bad thing. I don't think I'm that much clumsier than most people, but there was just one too many disasters, and the layout couldn't take it. So I added a wooden superstructure made from 1x2s, and used heavier shelf brackets.

That was fairly early on, and it was a good thing I did it, because as construction continued, I found that the reinforced benchwork was still barely adequate. There were times I needed to lean on one part to work on another (even though it was only 24 inches deep), and I had to be ultra-careful. There were times I needed to add weights to hold things in place while glue dried, and I could only add so much weight. Just cleaning the rails with a Brite Boy required a lighter-than-normal touch. One time I was working on the lighting (which had a Foamcore valance, requiring extra care), and I dropped a tool on the layout; there was much more damage than there should have been.

Certain aspects of layout construction were made much more complicated. For instance, control panels: with a Foamcore fascia over a 100% foam layout, I had to get creative making--and in particular installing--the panels. I couldn't just cut some holes and screw on a panel, as I might have if the fascia had been more substantial.

In short, I learned by direct experience why layout benchwork needs to have adequate strength. Perhaps it need not be as "overbuilt" as some layouts we see here, but far stronger than the foam-on-bracket approach. The next layout I started after my (nearly) all-foam one, I used steel 2x3s and 2x4s for framing, with 4 inches of foam glued on top, and a Masonite fascia. While the layout was never finished, I got far enough along to learn that I'd made some good choices, and any future room-sized layout will be built that way.

Finally, if I was to build a large layout that was going to be worked on and operated by a group, it would be built like a battleship. I think it's unfair to place extra burdens on visitors to be super-careful about a layout. Accidents happen, and I believe the builder has a responsibility to make sure those accidents don't result in disaster.

[davefoxx]

Finally, if I was to build a large layout that was going to be worked on and operated by a group, it would be built like a battleship. I think it's unfair to place extra burdens on visitors to be super-careful about a layout. Accidents happen, and I believe the builder has a responsibility to make sure those accidents don't result in disaster.

I think you hit the nail on the head with these statements.

[sizemore]

While I like the advancement in ultralight materials, I just see this coming down hard in pieces due to an accident. Quit being lazy Ed!

The S.

[lock4244]

I started work on my staging yard over the weekend. Once the cross bracing is installed, it should be able to support foam insulation.