Horseshoe Curve

[FrankCampagna]

Catenary on Horseshoe ... sweet

PRR actually planned to wire Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Decided it was easier to dieselize.

Frank

[Bob Bufkin]

Believe I just read where Amtrak is still thinking about wiring to Pittsburgh for their trains.

[Blazeman]

Electrifying to Pittsburgh always is on the wish list. Don't know why they'd do it for a couple passenger trains daily.

Looking at the mock up, I recall setting something up for my youngest many years back using the 19" sectional curves and I thought that was fabulous as to the "look" of wider curves.

[eric220]

Electrifying to Pittsburgh always is on the wish list. Don't know why they'd do it for a couple passenger trains daily.

Looking at the mock up, I recall setting something up for my youngest many years back using the 19" sectional curves and I thought that was fabulous as to the "look" of wider curves.

In my history, the wires went to Pittsburg at the same time that the rest of the NEC electrification project was completed.  By 1950, the wires over the Curve would have seen over a decade of use.

I got very lucky with the space that I have available for my layout.  I've been able to design it with 18" radius being my minimum on the mainline.  It's going to be a lot of fun, even at the "plywood prairie" stage.

[keystonecrossings]

PRR actually planned to wire Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Decided it was easier to dieselize.

Frank

Actually, it was WWII that prevented it. The steel wasn't available. By war's end diesels had improved and you had F units coming out. That sealed the deal for dieselization.

As for the other comment about Amtrak... they don't own any right-of-way to Pittsburgh... so it'll never happen. Don't know where that rumor came from!

[conrail98]

Actually, it was WWII that prevented it. The steel wasn't available. By war's end diesels had improved and you had F units coming out. That sealed the deal for dieselization.

As for the other comment about Amtrak... they don't own any right-of-way to Pittsburgh... so it'll never happen. Don't know where that rumor came from!

The rumor came from the High Speed rail studies being performed, one is the continuation of the electrification from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh to create a high speed rail corridor,

Phil

[Dave V]

PRR actually planned to wire Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Decided it was easier to dieselize.

Frank

According to my collection of Rails Northeast, Conrail gave very serious thought to wiring the Curve again in the 70s, inspired in part by the energy crisis.  It even demoed a new electric from EMD:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=72633

[rswinnerton]

Actually, there were GG1s in Altoona and they did run under their own power (and under wire, at that!) at Juniata Shop, there was an electric test track about 1/2 mile long. The poles are still there and can be seen from the bridge over Rose yard.

That makes Gs on the curve OK to me. Can you imagine a pair of E44 helpers?
Russ

[delamaize]

since we are on the topic of what if electrification, and he seems to be using GG1s in modern times, I want to ask a question that has been a long standing arguement.

we know that the GG1's for the most part had their transformers drained, and removed. My buddy says that the ones that have the transformers in place still, they are filled with dirt?!?! (dunno if that is true or not)

ANYWAYS, the big question was about the feasiblility of seeing a GG1 running under its own power now a days. he insists that all that needs to be done is refill the transformers and you would be good to go. I say that the transformers need to be totally replaced, all the electrical will need to be upgraded, and the traction motors, (or quill drives I don't remember what the GG1's had) would have to be gone though and upgraded. The other thing I always argue is that even if they did all that, they would still have modify them to the diffrent current on the NEC.

so who is right here? and what is the story that eric uses to keep the GG1s running?

[rswinnerton]

Oh God I feel like I'm on RYPN all over again. (This question pops up about once every 6 months or so...)
Anyway, the answer is yes and no. No, you could not just top up the transformers and give her the juice. Corrosion and age have rendered them useless (not sure about the dirt thing, that's a new one) a major overhaul of the electrical system would be required before you could apply power. Now one theory that's been floated on RyPN is to take out the old tech and put in the 'guts' of an AEM7 or similer. While this is theoretically possible, the only place to run it won't let you (Amtrak) and you'd still have to deal with the cast frames cracking (the big thing that sidelined the Gs in the first place). So that's the no part. The yes part is that it is theoretically possible to put in new electronics, re-cast or repair the frames, and perhaps operate it at some trolley museum on 600vDC, but for all the time and money involved, why bother? Plus the fact that no railroad in their right mind would move it for anything less than the cost of a few new SD70ACEs.

So feasable? Yes. Cost appropriate? No.
Spending this much on rebuilding something you can't run anyway is like building a layout without benchwork. It can be done, but common sense says it shouldn't.

Russ

[Bob Bufkin]

Amtrak might have upgraded their wiring but the current is still the same as when PRR ran trains.

[Blazeman]

Considering that Conrail pulled wires down on the high line and has very little presence on the corridor and Harrisburg line now, the decision to remove the wire made sense. Leaving the high line and cutoff catenary in place made no sense then.

But if they had continued the project west to Pittsburgh, would that same decision have been made in the Phila area (taken down) have been extended to the western extension we are discussing?

[jmlaboda]

"K4 Pacific 1361...  Now I do not know where it is, probably Strasburg, but I don't know."

Its at Steamtown.

"It even demoed a new electric from EMD:"

It was two electrics, the original GM6C and GM10B... both received new numbers once Conrail was created, above other electrics.  The GM6C concept was used to develop the BCOL GF6C electrics, though, like the prototype, those units were removed from service several years ago.

EMD GM6C
http://rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=32187
http://rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=138856

EMD GM10B
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=32186
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=42974

BCOL GF6C
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?mid=1306

[Ed Kapuscinski]

"K4 Pacific 1361...  Now I do not know where it is, probably Strasburg, but I don't know."

Its at Steamtown.

Part of it might still be, but I think other parts of it have made their way back to the ARMM in Altoona (its owner).

I think this is the best source for the latest news: http://www.rypn.org/forums/search.php?keywords=1361&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

[inkaneer]

PRR actually planned to wire Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Decided it was easier to dieselize.

Frank

The first part was true but the second only partly so.  Prior to 1930 Pennsy did many feasibility studies on electrification and all of them said the same thing, the traffic west to Pittsburgh was great enough to make the investment in electrication infrastructure profitable.  At Pittsburgh, however the mainline split with the Ft. Wayne line going to Chicago and the Panhandle line going to St. Louis.  Traffic density on either line did not justify electrification.  With the development of the GG1 the Pennsy finally had the electric motor they needed to make it all work.  The plan was to move the PRR steam fleet west where grades were almost nonexistant.  With an abundance of displaced steam locomotives in the East, steam development was curtailed.  It all looked good on paper but what wasn't on paper was the economic catastrophe called the great depression and WWII.  With dwindling traffic the electrification stopped at Harrisburg.  Traffic only caught up during WWII and by that time the electrification was not a war time priority so PRR could not electrify.   Pennsy's steam fleet worked their guts out hauling wartime supplies to East coast ports.  After the war with worn out steam engines Pennsy went into dieselization big time.  Even then feasibility studies showed electrification would be marginally profitable.  But with advances in diesel locomotives any idea of electrification from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh was shelved.