Beer Car Etching Project

[Dave Schneider]

Hello all,

I am in need of a fleet of a unique series of (bunkerless) RB cars for beer service on my Beer Line "project". These cars were originally built starting in 1951 for Schlitz service in the DSDX series, rebuilt starting in 1963 with wider plug doors, and then renumbered in URTX and then MILW for Pabst service in the late 1960s and early 70s, respectively. For those who are interested, my entire collection of Beer Line cars can be seen at: http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll290/djs_ank_ak/BeerRailcars/

After a number of attempts at various methods I am now about to attempt to produce the car sides as etched brass overlays onto Deluxe Innovations boxcars. Bryan Bussey has been extremely helpful to me with suggestions and examples, but I thought I would seek the advice of the wider group of etch-meisters. Here is a jpg version 1.0 of my artwork produced with Adobe Illustrator for this project:



Here is the link to a slightly larger version: http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll290/djs_ank_ak/RBL%20Project/URTX_Etch_v1.jpg

My intent is to submit this to PPD Ltd. for etching on .2 mm brass. On the artwork, Black is "No Etch", Red is "Half Etch" and White is "Full Etch". The rivets are .2 mm as per Bryan's instructions, but they seem to specify 2.4 mm. Will the smaller size work? I didn't think that the door rods would look good etched so my intent is to use wire for these. Hopefully this won't be a "good idea, poorly executed".   I would really welcome other thoughts on the plug door. The door opening mechanism is also a bit worrisome to me, and I am not sure how this will come out. The side ladder is also a bit crude with no relief or back side etching. I thought that .2 mm was about as thin as I should go. Perhaps this is better done in a thicker sheet, possible stainless instead of brass? I was thinking about adding full etch slots in the car side and inserting the ladders sides through them. Finally, I did not attempt to produce the panel lines adjacent to the closely spaced vertical rivets as I thought it might be too crowded. I might submit a version with panel lines...

I am still a bit unsure about how the final dimensions work out. Will a .2 mm diameter hole or rivet produce a .2 mm diameter feature, or does it depend on whether is is full or half etch?

These cars had a long and distinguished career hauling beer all around the country. Everyone needs one of these...in fact, here is one that was spotted this past July in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin! http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll290/djs_ank_ak/BeerRailcars/?action=view&current=MILW_10318_2010_sm.jpg
Best wishes, Dave

[wcfn100]

I am still a bit unsure about how the final dimensions work out. Will a .2 mm diameter hole or rivet produce a .2 mm diameter feature, or does it depend on whether is is full or half etch?

I looked at some etching projects a long ways back and here's part of what I remember.

Features such as rivets and holes will depend on the thickness of your material.  The reason being is the etchant goes in all directions, not just 'down'.  This is also the reason that the smallest hole you can have is equal to the thickness of your material.

This is also the reason why if you want true 90deg corners, you can compensate on the drawing.  Inside corners get a sort of rounding and outside corners get a little 'blob'.  Based on what I've seen done here, you probably don't need to worry about this too much, but I believe there is a formula if you're interested.



Jason

[Chris333]

PPD's prices are pretty reasonable. You could submit 3 or 4 drawings like what you have, but with little changes on each. Once you get the etchings back you can combine all the parts you like best into one drawing.
Many places give you figure for undercut depending on thickness, but a rivet is a bit different since it's a tiny dot being etched all around. Bryan's milk car rivets look great so if he used that size you should be fine as well.

[bbussey]

Looks good.

A 0.2mm diameter drawn hole will produce a slightly larger diameter result.  I've found that the diameter rivets I use for that thickness (as opposed to what PPD recommends) gives you an actual hemispherical shape rather than a sharp-edged cylinder posting as a rivet.

The only change I would make in this preliminary artwork is the runner tabs should be more of a tall trapezoid rather than rectangular.  Since the body is half-etched as are the runner tabs, you want as little contact there as possible so that the part does not distort when cut from the runner.  0.20 brass is strong but distorts easily until you get it laminated to your core part.

I agree on the door rods, use brass rod instead of including them in the etch.

[sirenwerks]

I always get in trouble when I do this. I dread the "Honey, do these jeans make my butt look big?" type questions, Aspergers makes everything logical and, ergo, makes it hard to 'lie'.

Anyway, grain of salt Dave, here are my thoughts...

If the ladder sides seat flush with the car side, consider doing the adding the slots on the car side as you mentioned, but 1/2 etch the ladder with tabs at full etch on the face of the ladder side. Bending those tabs may be a problem.

OR If you want some rung relief, and this is a bit of a stretch, consider etching just the ladder sides with tabs as I mentioned, and full-etch notches on the 'insde' of each ladder side, and etched holes that correspond to the notches, and then use bent wire for the rungs.

Half etch the door locking mechanism rather than leave it on the door. That way you can bend it out to meet the wire you're gonna use.

I ahevn't the foggiest what the proper terminology is but... Consider full-etching the welded-to-the-door-on-the-prototype saddles that would hold the wire, and the arm part that's hinged to the 'wires' at top and bottom. I know the former won't wrap completely around the wire, as would be prototypical, but the wire placement's pre-set for you for ease of construction and you may be able to fill in on the face of the wire somehow, with a small piece of styrene or, dare I say it, a thick application of paint.

Full etch the bottom seam below the rivet line; and the roller stop on the left lower-hand side of the door, and the different style roller stop at the right end of the lower sill.

Can the panel seams be hand-etched in, using an awl?

How are you handling the top door guide?

Last question, kinda... is this the side for that Minitrix (?) car you were working on, and where can I pick up a few of these badboys and decals?

[TrainCat2]

I would have done it differently. I would have preferred to use .010 brass and .009 rivets. I would also have used used two images that folded to create a total thickness of .015 instead of etching .020 down to .010. The thinner metal gives crisper holes, corners etc. I would also do the ladder differently. Half etch a .003 line where the rung meets the side. When building, bend away from the bend line. This will cause the rung to "pop-out" and look realistic.

[Dave Schneider]

The only change I would make in this preliminary artwork is the runner tabs should be more of a tall trapezoid rather than rectangular. 

Bryan, Thanks again for the help up to this point. I noticed in the artwork you sent me for your milk car that your tabs were quite a bit smaller and had a different shape than mine. I was just following PPDs specs but it sounds like these are not hard rules. What size did you use? Also, what is the minimum sized line that you use (for the panel seams).

I always get in trouble when I do this. I dread the "Honey, do these jeans make my butt look big?" type questions, Aspergers makes everything logical and, ergo, makes it hard to 'lie'.

Bryan,
This made me laugh. I did ask for a critique...plus I have a teen age son who is on the cusp of Aspergers so I am used to getting "the truth".

Can the panel seams be hand-etched in, using an awl?

How are you handling the top door guide?

Last question, kinda... is this the side for that Minitrix (?) car you were working on, and where can I pick up a few of these badboys and decals?

Thanks for the thoughts on the doors and ladders. I have some good ideas on how to improve those. As for the panel seams, I will produced a version with them to see how it looks. I might also just try one panel seam between the two vertical rows of rivets. I don't plan on a bunch of super macro photography, and my eyes ain't what they used to be. As for he top door guide that will be a styrene strip.  My previous efforts on this car was using a cut down Atlas mechanical reefer with Archer rivets, but that wasn't very satisfying. Once I get the sides worked out I would be happy to have some extras made. I have the decals just about done including the huge Milwaukee Road logo (as an AI vector path...it is sweet). The nice thing about this project is that there are a number of door variations, the original 6 foot hinged door, two types of 8 foot plug doors, and a 10 foot plug door, so it can be used anywhere from the 1950s through the 1980s easy, with a few stragglers lasting longer. There are also a variety of paint schemes and the weathering on the panels is very interesting.

I would have done it differently. I would have preferred to use .010 brass and .009 rivets. I would also have used used two images that folded to create a total thickness of .015 instead of etching .020 down to .010. The thinner metal gives crisper holes, corners etc. I would also do the ladder differently. Half etch a .003 line where the rung meets the side. When building, bend away from the bend line. This will cause the rung to "pop-out" and look realistic.

Bob, I think that you would have done this perfectly....in fact, I wish that you did or would! The DSDX 8000 series is also very cool, but I know that you have plenty on your plate. I hadn't thought about this two ply method. I may try that at some point once I get the hang of this. Thanks for the ideas on the ladder. Do you think that this would look good in brass or do you think stainless is a better material? BTW, I saw that the Milwaukee Road transfer caboose is on your to-do list. I am in for five of those! Then all I need is a nice FM H12-44 switcher body to mount the VO-1000 mechanism and life would be great.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Please keep them coming as this is a work in progress.

Best wishes, Dave

[tom mann]

Dave,

I would like a few of this "kits", if possible!

[sirenwerks]

Then all I need is a nice FM H12-44 switcher body to mount the VO-1000 mechanism and life would be great.

Maybe, AHEM, Walthers can help with that one? I'd be interest in a couple of those as well myself. Or Chris333, seeing how beautiful his HH660 is.

[bbussey]

Bryan, Thanks again for the help up to this point. I noticed in the artwork you sent me for your milk car that your tabs were quite a bit smaller and had a different shape than mine. I was just following PPDs specs but it sounds like these are not hard rules. What size did you use? Also, what is the minimum sized line that you use (for the panel seams).

PPD provides general guidelines that insure your parts will come out perfectly, but there is some leeway in their specs and I like to push the envelope to see what is possible.  I generally make runner tabs 1.5mm long, with 1mm width tapering to 0.5mm.  I don't like to worry about distorting parts on removal or cleaning up too many edges - especially with delicate thin brass parts, and 0.10mm brass post-etching is thin.

The panel seams on the milk car are 0.1mm wide.

I definitely would stay with brass as the medium.  It's softer than stainless and allows the "cheating" of rounded edges that allows us to make rivets and seams.  Stainless gives a true hard edge regardless.  The advantage of stainless (other than the finish) is that very small and thin parts can be made and still have strength and sharp detail.

[TrainCat2]

Bob, I think that you would have done this perfectly....in fact, I wish that you did or would! The DSDX 8000 series is also very cool, but I know that you have plenty on your plate. I hadn't thought about this two ply method. I may try that at some point once I get the hang of this. Thanks for the ideas on the ladder. Do you think that this would look good in brass or do you think stainless is a better material? BTW, I saw that the Milwaukee Road transfer caboose is on your to-do list. I am in for five of those! Then all I need is a nice FM H12-44 switcher body to mount the VO-1000 mechanism and life would be great.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Please keep them coming as this is a work in progress.

Best wishes, Dave

Check PM . . .

[Sokramiketes]

While half etch stainless has some tooth, paint flaking can still be an issue down the road.  I'd stick with brass.

Cool project Dave.

[Dave Schneider]

I have modified my design a bit and incorporated many of the suggestions into another version of my artwork. I submitted it to PPD and they should have some test runs done in a couple of days. Here is a version of my artwork that I colorized to give it more of a Milwaukee Road feel and overlaid my decal graphics. The door rods will be .2 mm brass, and they should fit between the brackets on the door. I hope to have one of these done in time for Trainfest in early November...we will see. Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.



Best wishes, Dave

[Sokramiketes]

Sweet.

[Philip H]

Dave,
I fthis comes out even 1/2 as good it looks, you will be able to sell a ton of these as kits!