PRR Track Plan

[DKS]

I'd have to echo Ed's request. It seems as though some aspects of operation are at odds with some scenes and visual effects, so if we can get the priorities sorted out, the layout design may benefit.

[eric220]

The part that most interests me is over the road running.  I also want setups to do switching (Newark/Panther Creek) and train assembly (Paradise).  "Operation" in the sense that Ed is talking about (if I understand it correctly) is not as high a priority.  I do want to have cars move around without assistance from the 0-5-0 from the sky, including setouts and pickups at industries, but's that's more on a whim as opposed to a schedule.  Right now, I'm not planning on doing car cards or dispatching.

With regards to Paradise, I do plan to use that for sorting as opposed to staging.  I have plans for a simple staging yard under Morrow.

Does that help?

I will admit that this is my first attempt at designing a large layout, hence the requests for feedback.  On that note, thank you to everyone who has responded so far.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ok, that helps quite a bit.

So let's break this down into a systems design exercise, because, when you're dealing with a large layout, that's what it really is (I know... I know how to suck the fun out of everything).

I'm going to dig into the requirements you stated a little more, because I think there are some details that need to be worked out (and we all know where the devil hangs out).

Let's talk first about "setups to do switching" and "train assembly" (Paradise) in a second, but here's the general idea.

What I see as quite possibly the most fulfilling plan here is to essentially overlay two operations plans on the layout.

The first is simple over the road trains, ie, from staging, to staging. The makeup of these trains does not really matter so much. This is a great thing, because it means you can run whatever arouses your interest at the moment: The Broadway, a Q2 with 100 H21s, a detour of the Empire Builder, etc...

For this, all you need (in order of importance) is staging, passing sidings, and cool scenery.

I'll address the other operations plan in a minute.

[GaryHinshaw]

I like the big picture concept, but I'm having a bit of trouble picturing how trains will be made up & broken down in Paradise.  The yard lead will either be part of Horseshoe, or around the roundhouse (if I'm reading the plan correctly).  The latter might work fine though.

-Gary
 

[eric220]

a Q2 with 100 H21s

I WISH I had that kind of cash laying around.  I gave serious thought to how I could justify the expense of a Key Q2, but I just couldn't do it.  I can always dream...

Gary- the yard lead is one of the tracks of the Curve. Originally, the Curve was going to be the beginning of the passenger station throat.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ok, part II.

The other layer is the actual "operations" aspect. This is the complicated part, because you need more things, and you need to stop thinking about "trains" and start thinking about "cars".

1. Staging (somewhere for cars to come from and go to).
2. Yards (an intermediate stop on a car's journey).
3. Spots (where cars change from loads to empties, or empties to loads).

Here's the general flow:
Staging ==Road Train==> Yard ==Local==> Spot (Industry) ==Local==> Yard ==Road Train==> Staging

The size and format of all of these are dependent on the others, so that if you have X # of spots, you need Y yard tracks, and Z number of staging tracks.

I wish I knew the exact formula. But you need to pay attention to balancing all of them. The important thing is realizing how truly interconnected they are. For example, if you have twenty industry spots, but only enough room in your yard for 20 cars, you're going to run into trouble. Why? Because odds are that there are two cars for that spot in the yard, one empty (from yesterday's local) and one load (for tomorrow's local). It also doesn't make sense to have a 300 car yard when you only have 10 industry spots and one local.

The trick to melding the two ops plans is to treat the road trains and the locals as part of the first plan (ie, keep a staging track at each end for each through train, and assume it needs them both, so that it can go to each as it needs to, otherwise).

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I'm gonna take it piece by piece.

Altoona

What's that yard there?

What are all the engine tracks for? Will you have that many trains terminating or departing, and do you actually want to model engine servicing? If so, I see some problems there. If not, then just arrange it so it looks hot.

River City
I see what looks like a yard at the front, and a passenger station toward the rear. How do you envision that all working? Is that a coach yard? Are you planning on making up / breaking up passenger trains there (it can be a lot of fun)? If so, it'll warrant more attention. If not, and it's just a place to show off or stage passenger equipment, I like how it's arranged.

[DKS]

This is an excellent thread to peruse to get ideas about yard design. I still refer to this thread regularly.

http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,17651.0.html

[wm3798]

It's good to follow Ed's line of thinking.  Although you don't have to much worry about math part.  It's all about ebb and flow in the yard.  The key is to make sure that you have enough tracks in the yard to keep things moving, and enough sidings on approach to the yard, so you can properly stack up trains waiting to be worked.

I understand where your head is, though, in terms of operations.  You're not ready to fuss with cards and clip boards etc.  But if you do in fact build out this plan, you'll get to a point where you'll start using the gateway drug, the switch list.  Once you start making up local trains and jotting down where you want the cars to go, you'll start looking more at the logic of how a railroad works.  Then, in addition to thinking about the set out at the widget mill, you'll start thinking about where that load of widgets might be going after the N scale forklift is done loading it.  Is it going east or west?  Which train will it be inserted into for that trip?  Is it high priority and need to go into a fast freight?  Or does it just need to get there by next week, where a rambler can get it to the next yard?

Suddenly, it's fun to watch those long road trains, because you know where all the cars are going.  Or if it's an inbound, you get to discover where all the cars are bound.

It adds considerably to the play value of the layout.
Lee

[71jeep]

I understand where your head is, though, in terms of operations.  You're not ready to fuss with cards and clip boards etc.  But if you do in fact build out this plan, you'll get to a point where you'll start using the gateway drug, the switch list.  Once you start making up local trains and jotting down where you want the cars to go, you'll start looking more at the logic of how a railroad works.  Then, in addition to thinking about the set out at the widget mill, you'll start thinking about where that load of widgets might be going after the N scale forklift is done loading it.  Is it going east or west?  Which train will it be inserted into for that trip?  Is it high priority and need to go into a fast freight?  Or does it just need to get there by next week, where a rambler can get it to the next yard?

Suddenly, it's fun to watch those long road trains, because you know where all the cars are going.  Or if it's an inbound, you get to discover where all the cars are bound.

It adds considerably to the play value of the layout.
Lee

Thank you Lee for this post I have never thought about operations in this way or maybe its I have never seen or heard it put so simply or I have been living under a rock :.The fun of knowing where my cars are headed where they came from ect. ect. sounds fun.
Allot of my ideas and assumptions on operations have now changed now I believe it will allot more fun to operate my model layout as opposed to just playing with trains  ;D ;D ;D kidding of coarse!
This forum is great I get so much more here than any of the others.

Thanks allot for info guys

Allen....

[eric220]

This is an excellent thread to peruse to get ideas about yard design. I still refer to this thread regularly.

http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,17651.0.html

But I don't have a closet...

[eric220]

I understand where your head is, though, in terms of operations.  You're not ready to fuss with cards and clip boards etc.  But if you do in fact build out this plan, you'll get to a point where you'll start using the gateway drug, the switch list.  Once you start making up local trains and jotting down where you want the cars to go, you'll start looking more at the logic of how a railroad works.  Then, in addition to thinking about the set out at the widget mill, you'll start thinking about where that load of widgets might be going after the N scale forklift is done loading it.  Is it going east or west?  Which train will it be inserted into for that trip?  Is it high priority and need to go into a fast freight?  Or does it just need to get there by next week, where a rambler can get it to the next yard?

I can definitely see that happening.

[eric220]

I'm gonna take it piece by piece.

Altoona

What's that yard there?

What are all the engine tracks for? Will you have that many trains terminating or departing, and do you actually want to model engine servicing? If so, I see some problems there. If not, then just arrange it so it looks hot.

Altoona is already built, so it's going to be very difficult to change.  The yard started out as storage space for the layout while it existed only as Altoona, but I'm trying to incorporate it into the new main yard.

River City

I think you're looking at the plans I originally posted at the beginning of the thread.  I decided to swap the yard and River City, so the next thing after Altoona is Paradise.

[eric220]

I've been thinking more about the branch line.  My thought as I was developing it was to have a small coal yard at Paradise, and the branch locomotive could haul the empties from that yard up to the mine, and then through to the power plant into Newark, and loads vice-versa.  I realized that a branch line really just redundant.  The outside track on the Curve was originally part of the throat into Penn Station River City, but when I moved River City, it kind of lost its purpose and became mainly aesthetic.   If I connect the Panther Creek mine into the curve on the right side (now that I know that it's permissible), I can use the outside track of the curve the same way that I was going to use the branch line.



I took David's advice and read through the thread on the development of Lee's yard.  Closet comments aside, I now remember why I completely omitted a yard in my first drafts: they're friggin' complicated.  I was going to wait for Ed to continue before doing any more designing, but I got to getting ideas about the yard and took another stab at it.  I divided it in about 2/3 into an arrival/departure yard and a classification yard.  I also added a cabin car track, a MOW track, and the small coal arrival/departure yard.



Here's a color-coded version to make it clear as mud.
Red - Mainlines
Green - Coal branch arrival/departure
Blue - Main arrival/departure/staging
Purple - Classification

The cabin car track is the black track below the arrival/departure yard, and the MOW track is the black track between the coal yard and the mainline.

[conrail98]

Eric, since I didn't see any staging in your plan, are you looking at the A/Ds at Paradise act as your visible staging? If so, it looks pretty good, if not, that's an awful lot of A/D tracks, almost as many as class tracks,

Phil