NE Caboose coming from Walthers???

[Bruce Bird]

You know, I've followed this thread and part of me is thankful that Walthers is F-ing all of this up.  What with the awesome Bluford WM hoppers coming out and the BLMA six-pack of 60's TTX brown flats the old model railroad budget really couldn't take a hit on a home-run NE cab that I would need 20 or so copies of.  So the budget is preserved and the hope that some manufacturer that gives a crap will see that there are a lot of roadnames and paint schemes that you can put on a NE 'boose.

And a better jewel case for the model to travel in?  Are you effing kiddin' me?!  The rat bastard that uses that for an excuse HAS to be a former staff member to some politician somewhere.  Totally clueless but completely enamored with their own smugness.  I imagine this guy thinking to himself "I can't believe these guys are buying this!"

Walthers- please stop trying to do ANYTHING in N scale.  Everyone but you (apparently) knows that you suck at it.

Bruce

[Bob Bufkin]

Was trying to think of something to say about this but I think this says it all:

[Dave V]

I might have to write up this turd in The Conrail Modeler.  Is it wrong to review a product wihout buying it?

[Dave Schneider]

I might have to write up this turd in The Conrail Modeler.  Is it wrong to review a product wihout buying it?

No, but I think that in all fairness you should have one in hand. Perhaps contact Walthers and ask for one to review.  :
I have no real interest in this caboose, and have been known to give Walthers and Kalmbach (and even Bud Selig) the benefit of the doubt over the years due to my Milwaukee roots, but this release is truly bizarre. The comparison to what Atlas can provide at half the cost is astounding.

Best wishes, Dave

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Dave, lets wait to see the production run first. They could easilly have just slapped on a paint sample shell on an old LL chassis which would explain the high ride height, old end rails and LL trucks.

IF this was a paint sample and IF those parts are revised on the production run than the car could still be salvaged.

I have about 6 of these cars that were painted for Amtrack as part of LL's F40/dummy F40/Caboose set that sold for $19  years ago.

[Rossford Yard]

Wow, 7 pages bashing a yet to be seen reissue at a higher price?

Out of curiosity, did we bash Athearn for reissuing the MDC line of rolling stock with minor upgrades, better paint, and twice the price ($6 at some point, about $12 now)?  Did we do it sight unseen?

Or do we just like to bash Walthers, even though they are bringing out some new tooling for N now (not to mention all their wonderful structures) of a much needed modern car?

As to the cab, I think anyone who models a NE road that needs it will buy it as the "best available" match to their needs, until something else comes along. Are we totally past the point of accepting near misses as stand ins?  For all those complaing about the lack of quality that will "ruin" your enjoyment, I would sure love to see your layout and scenery.....it must be magazine quality to let some small roughness on the caboose ruin it all!

I would think that such a specific model, with very limited production needs, might account for the $24.95 MSRP, compared to if they re-issued a ballast car, 70' Reefer, etc.  For that matter, the limited appeal of the caboose might be the economic reason not to retool substantially.

As always, I could be wrong.

[Dave V]

From my perspective, the frustrating thing is that Walthers is capable of so much better.  I just bought a Walthers Amtrak 10-6 sleeper and it is not only gorgeous, it's very well made.  I also just bought their upgraded 2-8-8-2 and it is clearly the best locomotive I own by a wide mile.

So imagine our incredulity when Walthers steps back in time and makes obvious paint mistakes and then charges $15 more for a new box?  A new box?  Sorry, now that's worth bashing.  Less the model, and more the half-a$$ed way in which the model came to be.  Re-using tooling is fine, but they need to do more than add knuckles and a new box.

The analogy to Athearn is a good one except for two minor points; the MDC tooling was far more up-to-date than this carbody, and Athearn did a much better research job in my opinion with regard to paint and finish.  Conrail is a pretty darned easy scheme to get right; you almost have to try to get it wrong on purpose given the near bottomless bucket of free photos online.

[bbussey]

... I would think that such a specific model, with very limited production needs, might account for the $24.95 MSRP, compared to if they re-issued a ballast car, 70' Reefer, etc.  For that matter, the limited appeal of the caboose might be the economic reason not to retool substantially...

It's actually not that limited as far as roads are concerned.  At least 25 railroads (which includes at least 11 Class 1 roads) at one time or another had them on their roster, and long enough to have been decorated in multiple schemes for most of those roads.  That's far greater appeal than just about every prototype of which an N scale model has been based upon since the scale existed.

[wm3798]

Rossford,
I know you like to apologize for incompetence on the part of manufacturers, and there are many times when I too roll my eyes at some of the bashing.

But this is a case where it's so blatantly ridiculous that even you have to see the flaws, not only in the model itself, but in the way Walther's is idly expecting no one to notice.

We're not talking about Athearn/MDC, where they took something that was pretty good and made it a little better for a modest price increase ($6 was an unbuilt MDC kit... the $12 Athearn is built up, and on par with Trainman, Micro Trains and other rolling stock).  Walther's has done NOTHING to improve this car, save for couplers, and has quadrupled the MSRP, setting it as one of the most, if not the most expensive plastic caboose model on the market!!  I'm sorry, no matter how you slice it, they're dropping the ball big time with this one.

And as for people buying them because they can?  Why on earth would someone shell out $25 for a car that is identical to the one you can scan ebay for 15 minutes and find for $5?  Why should anyone want to pay for a car that they will still have to modify heavily if they want it to look even just better?

I'm sure there are folks who will pay whatever, but in this economy, if I'm going to pay out any kind of money, I'm going to want value in return.  Walther's is not providing that in this instance.

And as for your snarky comment about people who's layouts are absolutely ruined by having this car, well friend, I've got a fleet of the old ones that I've been steady working on making better, because I want my work to be reflective of my pursuit of something better.  I'm to the point in my hobby experience where I want value for my buck.  I'm willing to put in the effort to make something myself, but I don't expect to have to do that for the price they're asking.

Lee

[Rossford Yard]

Dave, (and Lee)

No doubt its frustrating, and I won't be buying any because its out of my need zone, out of my want zone, and I don't have enough money to buy all the stuff I want to, so I wouldn't be buying anything that was less than 100% satisfactory.

I am just trying to figure out the Walthers perspective on this.  At the point of any MRR career that you would need a really road specific cab, I would think the target buyer would want state of the art detail. Maybe they weren't looking so much at reissue of MDC stuff, but looking at how well IM's road specific ATSF and UP cabeese sold, and thought they were in the same ballpark.  They may be, since we are bashing on pre-production photos that may still get signifigant upgrades.

Maybe some folks would buy any cab, early in their collection because of road names, I don't know.  Maybe they got some feedback that the cabs had sold out and were needed again.  Maybe they figured wrong, but time will tell.

BBussey,

I guess that is a good point over the entire caboose era many roads used that style.  It is probably especially important for cabs, since they are often a signature item on many roads.  

Overall, I am still comfortable with the points I made. I don't think all of us on this board may represent the acual N scale market. Maybe Walthers knows something about it, even though we disagree.

[wm3798]

Walther's knows they can milk an old piece of tooling because it's easier and cheaper than actually putting any effort into into doing it right.  They know they can slap an absurd price on it, because they're the 600 lb. gorilla, and if they end up dumping it, they end up dumping it.  They'll still make a pot of money because there's little or no cost in producing it.

Lee

[Rossford Yard]

Lee,

Based on all the posts in this thread, its hard to see how you think they can do this, when in previous posts you have basically said there is no way anyone will buy it.  I don't really get the logic in you contradictions, nor the anger.  Good for you if you got the ones pre-inflation and have the talent to upgrade them.

If others do buy them, for any reason whatsoever, you actually benefit.  Further, there is no real downside to anyone else buying them, even at prices you think are absurd (to you)  For all we know, in another ten years there will be a release and people will long for the day when they could have paid $25 for them!  (hey there may be a day when we long for the days when we could buy anything)

If its a flop, I agree there will be some small general negative consequences, like Walthers shying away from N even further, and producing less new products for N.  Maybe.  Or maybe they will learn and stop re-issues from LL, junking that tooling.  I will buy their new shorty hoppers because I need them, they fit my era, and I hope to teach them what to make via my wallet, as has been suggested.  On a specific basis, you might be affected IF they had considered but dropped a specific project that meets your exact needs, but then, I doubt we would ever know if that happened, would we?

You may think I apologize for the mfgs needlessly, but I guess I just reacting to the tone of your last post (as just one of millions of examples on internet forums) that seem to think that any n scale mfg is making boatloads of money. Last time I checked, there were no MRR companies on ANY Fortune 500 list, and maybe not on a 5000 or 5,000,000 list.  On other posts and forums, I have run the math on how much they can make when selling, in some cases, just hundreds of structures.  It ain't much, so I really dislike posts about how they are making a "pot of money" off of us poor N scalers.

Other mfgs who have always picked up the slack, given how little walthers has made for us in the rolling stock dept. anyway, so the industry will survive this, and so will Walthers if its a flop.  While a small industry, luckily its big enough to survive.  I just tend to think these kinds of threads are huge overreactions, for reasons listed.  I can ONLY HOPE that this release isn't the most important event in any of our lives, or the event that puts us over the edge of sanity (as we all know, many of us are quite close!)

I also think its a fnctio of how much some of us hate Walthers.  Hey, I love them, because I couldn't have built an urban theme layout without their structures.

[sizemore]

Out of curiosity, did we bash Athearn for reissuing the MDC line of rolling stock with minor upgrades, better paint, and twice the price ($6 at some point, about $12 now)?  Did we do it sight unseen?

Or do we just like to bash Walthers, even though they are bringing out some new tooling for N now (not to mention all their wonderful structures) of a much needed modern car?

As to the cab, I think anyone who models a NE road that needs it will buy it as the "best available" match to their needs, until something else comes along. Are we totally past the point of accepting near misses as stand ins?  For all those complaing about the lack of quality that will "ruin" your enjoyment, I would sure love to see your layout and scenery.....it must be magazine quality to let some small roughness on the caboose ruin it all!

I would think that such a specific model, with very limited production needs, might account for the $24.95 MSRP, compared to if they re-issued a ballast car, 70' Reefer, etc.  For that matter, the limited appeal of the caboose might be the economic reason not to retool substantially.

As always, I could be wrong.

Wanna know why nobody bashed Athearn for the reissue of MDC cars...inflation. Those cars were still worth the $12 MSRP and we can't forget they were assembled too.

A near miss is the Atlas Trainman Magor Caboose with a $13.95 retail having every conceivable road name that the NE caboose had in prototype. That's a near miss.

It's not a lack of quality, functionally it works. It can ride on the rails, it can couple to other cars with knuckle type couplers. However that is not the gripe.

"Best available" is the same exact caboose from Wallyworld's predecessor Life-Life, which can be purchased for $5 dollars and repainted by anyone who models an NE road. I have 15 of these destined for the paint shop (even when the factory painted re-release is available for my NE road name). This is where the gripe begins, I can buy a turd for $5, or I can buy the same turd for 20% off of $24.95 and still have to do the same amount of work to make it "magazine worthy". And even though it hasn't been released, we can still bet that even with a lower MSRP, it will still be higher price than finding a "previous run" on e-Pay.

Bowser proved that a decent caboose could be made to basic standards with their N5 cabeese and still demand, AND GET, a higher than average (at the time) price. They released it in about a babillion different schemes all correct (ok fine, probably 90% correct). The difference between the Bowser N5 and the Wallyworld NE Caboose, the NE Caboose isn't very "specific" its about as common as a 40' boxcar. 20+ different roadnames, and probably twice the number of roads in paintschemes....

I do agree that the it's a "wait and see" in regards to the retail price, but I wont hold my breath since the tooling hasn't changed one bit, and I highly doubt the MSRP will either.

The S.

[Rossford Yard]

A friend in the biz once showed me the wholesale price sheets from a distributor.  For whatever reason, while most of the wholesale was 60% of retail (plus a few % off for prompt payments, volume, whatever)  LL and ConCor always were about 35-45% of MSRP.  In other words, they basically build in a lot of room to discount later, which as has been noted, is self fulfilling in many cases.  Like Denver Road Doug, I think these will hit the Walthers Flyers at some point after release on the sale bin, not unlike Model Power FP40H.

Why they don't adopt a more industry standard pricing, I do not know. But I am guessing (totally unfounded) that their cost to wholesales is only like $6, which under normal pricing would put it in that $12 range, which is what it may really be worth to a knowledgeable buyer.  I don't disagree that most of us compare pretty closely.

I recall looking at the first release in the LHS and figuring I wouldn't buy it because it didn't match up to Atlas standards.  As mentioned, there is no compelling reason for ME to buy it now.  I hope others decide its worth something to buy for reasons also stated.  Its a big market out there and lots of folks prefer to buy new, and hate EBay, etc., so I think they will sell a few.

[mcjaco]

A friend in the biz once showed me the wholesale price sheets from a distributor.  For whatever reason, while most of the wholesale was 60% of retail (plus a few % off for prompt payments, volume, whatever)  LL and ConCor always were about 35-45% of MSRP.  In other words, they basically build in a lot of room to discount later, which as has been noted, is self fulfilling in many cases. 

That's pretty typical for every manufacturer.  It's not really a secret.