NE Caboose coming from Walthers???

[SkipGear]

Rossford,

Walthers is the wholesaler here. There is no supply/distribution chain. LifeLike is gone, Walthers is the sole owner of the tooling. They may pay a subcontractor to manufacture the car but they are the ones to sell the car to customers and to hobbyshops. It's not like before where LifeLike sold the car to a distributor, which then passed the car on to the shop or the consumer. This car will not go through 2-3 markups before getting to the customer. Even a hobbyshop with the absolute best terms with Walthers will not get the car for 50% off of retail, let alone the 35-45 you mentioned. This should make the car cheaper to produce, not more expensive as they are getting everybit of the markup percentage from manufacture to shop or customer.

This is just too big a jump in price when there are better products out there had 40% less price. I posted this to the Walthers facebook page....

"For people that just want a Conrail or WM caboose (etc.) they will choose the Atlas at 40% less price with better printing and detail.

For those that really want the NE car, painted correctly, it's down to striping and painting your own. These are so far off of the accepted standard, at least relative to the photos posted on the website"

If average joe on the street walks in, want's a (since this is the topic of discussion) Conrail caboose, which do you think he will choose? We currently have on the shelf at the shop:

MT Bay window ~ $25 (Crisp paint and detail, windows, MT couplers, foob)
Athearn Bay Window ~ $25 (Superb Detail and low height, windows,  McHenry Couplers, foob)
Atlas Trainmain Major ~ $13.00 (Great detail and price, windows foob)
Atlas Std/Ext Visions ~ $20.00 (good detail, windows, foob?)
Walthers NE ~$25 (Logo's too small, cupola painted wrong, nice new box)

I would say 7 out of 10 customers will pick the Trainman simply because it looks better and they don't know where the coupola is supposed to be.

[wm3798]

You misread me.  It's not anger, it's frustration.  Since Walther's has the tooling for this car, and Atlas has done the Magor in paint schemes that should be on a NE caboose, that means that there is little or no chance that someone will step forward with an improved and updated version.  When it was first announced (see the beginnings of this thread) there was some faint hope that, based on the Bowser level MSRP, that we'd at least get a Bowser level car.

The fact that Walther's has determined that the 20+ year old architecture of this model was good enough for them means that for the foreseeable future, we're stuck with it.  Or, if we want a better quality car that's close, we're stuck with an inaccurate, but very nicely rendered Magor.  That's my main problem with this whole thing.  

The fact that they think they can command $24.95 for it is just insult added to injury.

If they had bothered to tool up window inserts and modified the bolsters to ride a little lower, I would be lining up to pay the $18 - $20 street price for as many as I could carry.

Lee

[Rossford Yard]

Skip,

I should have made clear that the wholesale sheet I saw was probably pre Walthers buying Life Like.  Even if it was later, that wouldn't explain why ConCor and Model Power had similar pricing structures.  It obviously had something to do with lesser lines leaving themselves some pricing wiggle room, hoping to get full fare on a new product, but fully expecting the big discounts.  (I think, but don't know)

As to this caboose, I already know I ain't buying, I can sure see your argument about why you won't buy and don't think others will, and really don't see why it would be a great seller.  But, we aren't everyone.  Maybe we can reconvene this thread in a year and see if the deep discounts we predict will materialize.  In truth, we don't know, Walthers doesn't know.  I am sure they had this kind of debate in the corporate office before going ahead, no?  While I have the same reservations you do, they had to have a reason to proceed, and a reason its priced the way it is, based on current production costs and projected volume.

And, they have to know what competitive products sell for, too.  Its all figured in. We just don't know exactly how or why they do what they do.  The one scenario I would hate to think is happening is that they had a secret industry conference, and business conditions are such that they all at least hinted at huge price increases, and Walthers just happens to be the first one out of the chute with the new pricing.

[Rossford Yard]

Lee,

I guess I missed the part where you would still be in the market for more, given all the old ones you had.  I can feel that frustration.  In my case it was Metra Commuter cars.  Kato does them in HO, I missed the Wheels in Time, and I don't want to pay for those brass ones that seem really nice.  So, I buy Con Cor stand ins and hope for Kato to do them in N, or WOT to reissue them (thinking I may paint the undecs, but there are no N Scale Decals that fit the scheme I want so even that is a foooooob)  And the new run CC aren't cheap either.

I can think of a lot of products I waited for and was slightly dissapointed in - IM Tunnel Moters spring to mind.  And I know that if they aren't up to par, then they don't get run very often. And, I buy less and less because my standards get higher and higher, too. But, when forced, I run the foobs and its better than nothing. 

Thus, my original comment as to whether we are really that advanced in N scale where our rolling stock fleets are so perfect, that we need them to keep getting perfecter......that is the goal of course, but I doubt any of us are there.  Many posters tell us that they try for a small percentage of great cars, but "fill out" freight trains with less expensive cars to save money, hoping that the overall mass and a few great looking cars carry the day.

That said, I agree that once a standard is set, its hard for us to go back to average cars.  However, I recently compared box cars in the LHS (like I need more boxcars) and the price comparison of the IM to the Trainman on similar schemes was such that I would easily go the TM route on those to save a few bucks.

It all comes out in the wash.  Sometimes on these threads we get so focused on what is wrong with the products we love, that we forget that in other cases, we work around the flawss easily, or just accept them until we have time to correct them, like you did with the previous run.

[Dave V]

Thus, my original comment as to whether we are really that advanced in N scale where our rolling stock fleets are so perfect, that we need them to keep getting perfecter......

Not perfect, but at least up to Walthers' own standard and the current industry standard.  That's the least we can expect for the price.  I disagree that that is snobbish.  

It's like releasing a CRT television today while charging a flat-screen LCD price.  Why?

[wm3798]

But there's a difference between boxcars, which can roam the layout pretty anonymously, and only the hardest of hard core rivet counter will call you out something glaring.  A caboose, as Athearn, Atlas, Bowser, and even Micro Trains have discovered, is a little different.  For those of us modeling a particular railroad at a particular point in its history, having the right caboose bringing up the markers is as important as having the right road number, paint scheme and details on the locomotive pulling it.

You can't authentically portray the PRR without an N5c, or the B&O without a wagontop, or the WM without a proper NE center cupola.  Sure, you can play trains and get away with it, and I'll agree, there are a lot of fellows out there that will be just fine with Walther's car...  But I bet they think twice before pulling out their wallets when they see what else is available!

[Ed Kapuscinski]

If they had bothered to tool up window inserts and modified the bolsters to ride a little lower, I would be lining up to pay the $18 - $20 street price for as many as I could carry.

Shoot, I wouldn't even care so much about the bolsters, lowering these is a 5 minute job thanks to the plastic underframes.

The windows would be VERY nice. It's almost unfathomable that they're releasing cabooses in this day and age without windows.

I think my annoyance with this is that it shows that they really don't care enough to produce a quality product.

[bbussey]

Atlas Std/Ext Visions ~ $20.00 (good detail, windows, foob?)

Nope.  Legit.  Class N20 if I remember correctly, ex Reading.

[asarge]

Personally, I would ratehr walthers spend the effort to put out some new structures rather than more and more rolling stock. If they can't make a profit on the NE caboose tooling w/o jacking the price then maybe they should let it die and concentrate on new tooling.

Also, I'm starting to think the future of N scale at Walthers might just get better. On monday Walthers announced they hired a new VP of Proprietary Products. Michael Stephens who I think was president at Athearn when they expanded into N scale.

He is highly regarded throughout the industry as a strong leader with the ability to cultivate strategic partnerships. In his new role, Stephens will provide strategic direction for Walthers brand managers along with members of the marketing team in the areas of product selection and development, portfolio and inventory management, brand definition and message, promotions and other marketing initiatives.

Ok so they F'd up the caboose, we are all frustrated and in awe of how stupid they can be. But this could mean that N scale may get more of a fair hearing at WKW......or maybe not.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Atlas Std/Ext Visions ~ $20.00 (good detail, windows, foob?)

Nope.  Legit.  Class N20 if I remember correctly, ex Reading.

Yep, and there's even a few still floating around. I'd love to make one of these part of the CRHS collection someday... just because they're so nice.

[Rossford Yard]

Personally, I would ratehr walthers spend the effort to put out some new structures rather than more and more rolling stock. If they can't make a profit on the NE caboose tooling w/o jacking the price then maybe they should let it die and concentrate on new tooling.

Also, I'm starting to think the future of N scale at Walthers might just get better. On monday Walthers announced they hired a new VP of Proprietary Products. Michael Stephens who I think was president at Athearn when they expanded into N scale.

He is highly regarded throughout the industry as a strong leader with the ability to cultivate strategic partnerships. In his new role, Stephens will provide strategic direction for Walthers brand managers along with members of the marketing team in the areas of product selection and development, portfolio and inventory management, brand definition and message, promotions and other marketing initiatives.

Ok so they F'd up the caboose, we are all frustrated and in awe of how stupid they can be. But this could mean that N scale may get more of a fair hearing at WKW......or maybe not.

Hey, maybe the guy woo authorized the caboose was fired because of it.  Who knows, and I hope it means positive changes.  I kid of wonder if we need a lot more rolling stock from another company, but it can't hurt, I guess.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

N scale has a few great eastern cabooses for Conrail:
Atlas Wide Vision
Bowser N5
Bowser N5C
TrainCat's bay windows and transfer cab

There are some foobs that are so good they make it on the list:
Athearn bay window
Atlas Magor
MTL bay window

And, yes EVEN Life-Like managed to get the right paint scheme on the right body in the right paint on their NE cab.

But Walthers? They make NO improvements, and lied to the public TWICE when announcing the pre-order:
1. The paint was correct on the illustration/announcement flier.
2. They state these ride on Swing Motion trucks. They photo shows otherwise.

And they did this on top of a 400% markup over the original car. Those cars retailed for less than $6 new in the early 90's. Walthers was blowing these cars out for as little as $2 a few years ago.

This goes beyond a casual disregard for our scale, this is downright vicious. Someone over at Walthers doesn't like N scale and does what he can to mess the releases up.

[H Lee]

Also, I'm starting to think the future of N scale at Walthers might just get better. On monday Walthers announced they hired a new VP of Proprietary Products. Michael Stephens who I think was president at Athearn when they expanded into N scale.

Not trying to throw cold water on the optimism, but wasn't Stephens the Athearn Pres that left Athearn when Horizon bought them? And had kept them in Irv's 'no N scale not now not ever' philosophy.


Isn't it the CURRENT Athearn Pres that has been in charge since Athearn/Horizon has expanded into N scale?

[Rossford Yard]

But Walthers? They make NO improvements, and lied to the public TWICE when announcing the pre-order:
1. The paint was correct on the illustration/announcement flier.
2. They state these ride on Swing Motion trucks. They photo shows otherwise.

This goes beyond a casual disregard for our scale, this is downright vicious. Someone over at Walthers doesn't like N scale and does what he can to mess the releases up.

First, do you really know that those photos show the final product and aren't taken from previous releases (expedient, but not too smart if it causes doubt) I recall some early photos of the Bachman DD40X had old style open pilots, but I think the final version was enclosed, for one example?

Second, do you REALLY think an mfg would spend any amount of money trying to screw up an existing scale it sells many products to?  I mean, REALLY?


No question Walthers has been a bit hit and miss in the N market.  LL was, too.  I just can't believe any one thinks they screw us on purpose.

[asarge]

Not trying to throw cold water on the optimism, but wasn't Stephens the Athearn Pres that left Athearn when Horizon bought them? And had kept them in Irv's 'no N scale not now not ever' philosophy.


Isn't it the CURRENT Athearn Pres that has been in charge since Athearn/Horizon has expanded into N scale

No that was Tim Geddes. Stepehns got hired after Horizon Bought them and Athearn bought MDC. Hired in Jan. 2007.