Question about Layout Room/Basement Prep

[conrail98]

What are people's experiences with "finishing" the layout room? I really hadn't planned on doing much other than painting the foundation walls and putting in some kind of flooring and ceiling system, but as I was down in the basement this weekend, I realized I'm going to need more insulation and that putting "walls" up would make a more friendly environment to work in. The reason I ask about finishing is that in my case, depending on how I finish out my basement (if at all) I can take away anywhere from 2 to 6 inches from each wall. Here are my basement "parameters"

• Block Wall foundation
• French Drain with a system like http://www.waterproof.com/index.html around the bottom
• 2 "windows" at the top of the walls
• Both the water and gas meters along portions of the wall
• Exhaust pipes for the heater going outside

I'm leaning towards 2x2s mounted to the block wall around the perimeter with bead board insulation in between, however, I've heard of about 100 different ways of doing this from putting bead board insulation (3/4") down first then putting on the furring strips and the other (1 1/2") insulation between them to using plastic wraps, etc. If I can ever get a hold my neighbor I'm going to ask him as he's finished his basement (which is an exact copy of mine) for a living space. Since I'm not going to be using it for additional living space, I'd thought I'd ask here as we tend to be more focused on what we need out of a space to put a layout in. Also, with the drainage system in place, I've had no water problems in the basement in the almost 3 years I've lived in the house and that's through some pretty heavy rains and snow melts (our neighbors yard has a nice 1"-2" lake in it after heavy rains). Also, I'm definitely going to be putting down some kind of flooring, probably a carpet as well as a suspended ceiling in. Thanks in advance,

Phil

[Philip H]

Phil, lots of options to consider.  As long as everything stays dry, it can be an easy installation, but I would plan it so that wetness can be managed pretty easily.

first, is there a waterproof barrier on the outside of your basement walls, or just inside?  Even with the system you linked to, there is always the possibility of water working its way through the blocks At higher levels.  If your block is unfinished, there are several epoxy-based coatings that will help, but they nee the rough surface of the concrete to adhere properly.

Second, I prefer attaching the furring strips to the block directly, especially if you intend to put weight on them (as in around the walls benchwork).  Both Tapcon and Hilti make fasteners that are up to the job, but they will punch holes in the block which may become weep points if you have high ground water and/or a failure in your hydrostatic system.

third, I'd stay away from beadboard insulation, and go with either the pink/blue extruded foam, or the more expensive but higher R-value yellow Polyisocyanurate board.If you go with a 2x2 for your "stud" you will only be able to add a 1 1/2 inch think foam board to the cavity since the 2x2 is really a 1 1/2x1 1/2.  Depending on your budget you can also get spray foam kits that will adhere to the walls and the studs, and then get sheared off when they set.

Finally, make sure you layout your electrical system before any of this, and check you county building department for height from floor requirements.  Even in dry basements, outlets are generally put 3 feet above the floor.  Running the wiring and installing the boxes with the wood in place but before insulation is probably also a code requirement, as is keeping certain kinds of insulation a certain distance away from the wire.  And you will probably have to use plastic outletboxes as well.

Hope that helps,
Philip

[conrail98]

Philip,

Thanks for the suggestions. The walls do already have one of those epoxy/paint coatings on them but I would definitely need to put another layer or two on. I don't know about the outside of the basement walls, everything's mostly underground and the house was built in the late 60s. The french drain is the main point of removing water from the sides and I believe it is only running around the basement walls. We do have a high water table, so much so that when we drained our pool this past summer, we had to leave a pump in the drain to make sure no water seepage ruined the new paint going on. For the fastners, do you use the masonry screws and go directly through wood or do you use the bolt system (can't really remember what it's called)? I believe you are correct in the 3' above the floor but will double check. I do know I need to use metal conduit going down to the outlets within the wall itself,

Phil

[Philip H]

Tapcons are screws that can be run through the wood (in a pilot hole) to the masonry.  I believ the bolts are the Hilti product.  I'd also chek on the conduit issue - lots of places have gone to pvc conduit for undergroun dinstallations, because when the joints are glued PROPERLY the whole thing is waterproof.

You may also have to install a GFCI or two in the out line.

[oakcreekco]

If you plan on staying for a lng time, I would consider using metal studs against the walls.

All basement walls will eventually leak/seep, it's a matter of when????  Metal will "last" longer, and not have any moisture issues.

You're thinking right.............stud/insulate/cover..........and install extra wiring/outlets at "under the layout" level.  A nice drop ceiling and tile or carpet the floor.

You'll never regret finishing the room before layout construction............it makes a HUGE difference, and is easier to do without a layout in the way.

[wm3798]

Basement?  What's a basement? ;D

Lee

[cec209]

I've done 4 train rooms so far. Sometimes it seems like I've spent more time on the room than the layout.

I agree with the comments so far on finishing the walls and putting in electrical outlets. You might want to consider putting the outlets you'll be using for the layout, on a separate switch so you can kill all power between operating sessions as a safety measure.

If your looking at carpet for the floor, I've used carpet squares with great results. I believe they ar 18" x 18" and when fitted together really look nice. Besides being very easy to put down, all or a few squares can be removed/replaced in case of a spill or flooding.

Charlie

[conrail98]

Oh, I already know (and have lamented with Ed K.) that I have to add 4 circuits down there (only 2 open circuit slots left, <sigh>): 1 for the layout, 1 for the layout lighting, 1 for general circuitry (which may include any non-lighting, I'll see on wattage usage), and 1 for a refrigerator. I have looked at the carpet tiles also, I think the ones I saw were 24"x24".

Lee: I tried to get the 2-car garage that was finished but the wife has this crazy idea it should be for the kids playroom.

As for steel studs, while I'm not opposed and another neighbor used them on a recent remodel, I think what I'm trying to avoid is the 6" of space I'll lose if I put any kind of free standing wall up. By that I mean the waterproof system thing around the base of the basement wall on the floor similar to that product I linked to juts out anywhere between 1"-2" away from the basement wall so putting a stud wall up would mean losing almost 6" of layout space along the walls (22'x27' area, minus all the utils). That can equate up to 40 square feet of less basement space, believe it or not. Thanks,

Phil

[DKS]

Phil, if it were me, I'd give up the floor space to free-standing walls for a number of reasons. First, attaching firring to a sealed wall means puncturing the seal in many places--kind of defeats the purpose. Second, the added wall depth provides added insulation for more comfort. Also, you can frame the walls to compensate for the possibility that the foundation is not true (the one in my first house sure wasn't). The added wall depth makes running utils much easier, and it makes modifications more convenient. Just some food for thought.

[Ian MacMillan]

Here is what I did for mine:

House footprint 22'x50': Layout footprint: 22'x40'

I had all of my utilities installed on one side of the basement by the bulkhead, creating a 22'x10' room with bulkhead exit. The wall separating the utility room and train room is 2x4 wood stud with R-12 instulation and 1/2" fire drywall on BOTH sides. Bulkhead has a door installed on the stairs to assist in further keeping the drafts out. An exterior door is installed for access from layout room to the utility room. The section around the furnace was also finished off to help the forced hot water tank retain as much heat as possible. Insulated jacket installed around the forced hot water tank as well. Router and switch rack for house network is in this room as well on a SquareD dedicated surge protected circuit breaker.

Rest of the basement was prepped with 3mil vapor plastic and then 2x4 studs on 16" center were put up. Outlets were installed every 6' at standard height for plenty of power. R-12 installed between the studs and then rocked with 5/8" GP.  Tape, mud, done. Walls were not primed or painted as they would not be seen due to the layout and backdrop.

240v ran for electrical heat. I was planning on adding another zone to the furnace but for the amount of time I am down there a day it was easier to run electric baseboards and not FHW.

Ceiling- Open rafters at this point with  complete plastic encased R-25. The plumbing guys decided not to run all the pipes through the joists like the contractor had pre drilled for them so they are currently all hung from the joists with clips. Current desire to change them to the proper configuration is low on the list at this point and I do not mind the open ceiling.

No carpet at this time but it can be easily added. Entire layout except for one peninsula is cantilevered from the walls so future carpet install is a snap. I was thinking of maybe doing carpet tiles, but who knows.

Electrical:
Circuit 1 - Layout "House Lights"
Circuit 2 - Layout lighting
Circuit 3 - Layout Outlets
Circuit 4 - Surge protected Server outlet
Circuit 5 - 240 Heat
Cat7e - Computer Network
Cat5e to RJ12 - LocoNet dispatch computer connection
 

[bobcat]

I took the time, and it seemed even longer, but I am bery happy that I took the time to carefully plan out and finish the basement first. It is even more comfortable in my train room than the living room upstairs.

For the flooring, I used the following product, http://www.dricore.com/en/eIndex.aspx. I used to live in a basement apartment and the hard concrete floor, even carpeted is hard on the feet, especially if you will be standing. I can stand on this all day and the floor is not only easier to stand on, but it acts as an insulator too.

I studded all the walls, ran electric, insulated and rocked them. My basement used to be real cold and without even running any heat, it is very comfortable. I was planning on running baseboard heating, but I when it is very cold out, I can get by with a small heater easily.

For the ceiling, which I haven't done yet, there is a product at both Lowes and HD that uses ceiling tiles, but hangs them from the joists saving head room which I need to do since the basement heigh is only 80".

Take the time and prepare the room, it will add to the enjoyment later on.

[conrail98]

For those that used the metal studs, what was the size/gauge of them? I know they are about $1.50 more than wood studs right now at HD/Lowes. I must say, I was leaning towards the furring strips but seeing what others have done/recommended actually has me leaning the other way,

Phil

[mmyers]

There's no minimum height requirement for electrical outlets in the NEC. Local codes may vary. ADA says no lower than 15 inches from the floor but that's for commercial and special needs residential.
You want to locate them where most convenient. It's also better to put more in than you think you will need. NEC has no stated maximum on the number of outlets allowed on a circuit but 6 duplex outlets is the norm.

As far as furring the block walls... I wouldn't worry about fasteners causing leakage. They seal tight in the hole if done right. Plus if there is enough moisture inside the block to weep around a tapcon, redhead, case hardened nail, etc. you should probably get some foundation work done first.  BTW, they make metal furring strips.

Martin Myers

[conrail98]

I went back into the basement last night and looked around. There are some wood strips holding things up like our security system box, paneling down the stairs (which is attached to both the first floor wall and the foundation), and framing for a plug for the sump pump so I'm not too worried about fasteners and leakage as these all look nice and dry. I don't know about the rest of you, but I was worried about basement water Christmas weekend with the 2' of snow melting from the couple of inches of rain we got. I remembered the last time that happened around Philly ('03, I think) a lot of basements got water in them, including this house. I think at this point I should probably do some kind of cost analysis on the whole thing and see what's cheapest, gives me the best options in terms of insulation, etc.

My friend who used the metal studs used the 2in. variety and only put paneling on them, no insulation or anything. His house does not have as high a water table as mine does, but his is also more above ground then me, I've got the "windows" at the top of the foundation and that's it above ground. The only insulation he did actually was in the ceiling and when I was over New Year's it was pretty nice in his basement. He also did not stud out one of his walls due to the large window (almost walk-out) he has.

Martin, you mentioned metal furring strips, would these be the 1 1/2" kind? I asked and got gift cards to cover the start of benchwork/layout room construction for Christmas, so it's a matter of where to start at this point,

Phil

[John]

You want to locate them where most convenient. It's also better to put more in than you think you will need. NEC has no stated maximum on the number of outlets allowed on a circuit but 6 duplex outlets is the norm.

Martin .. by circuit .. are you defining it as a leg coming from the breaker, or would a circuit also include a branch out of a box .. for example, 20 amp out of the pannel, then split out in a box to two or three legs, then each of those with a max of 6 outlets ..