Exactrail.com

[lashedup]

BTW, the US has a manufacturer who has produced (in nominal quantities to date) an all electric car with a 220 mile range, that can recharge in 3.5 hours, can accelerate from 0 to 60 in under 4 seconds, and has a top speed of 125 mph. If GM, Ford, or Chrysler was serious about fuel efficiency they could have pulled that off years ago and we could afford and would be driving them already. The aforementioned company, Tesla Motors, is one that deserves the bail-out money more than the big 3.

Tesla's car is a fun beast, however it also expensive for a reason. All those lightweight materials necessary to bring the weight down (which is necessary to get the performance and economy numbers quoted) come at a substantial cost. Carbon fiber, aluminum, Li batteries and more are all very expensive - even with substantial volume investments.

Hydrogen will be the future - that is about the only thing *all* manufacturers agree on. I've driven a number of hydrogen test vehicles and they behave and sound like just like gasoline counterparts, except that nothing but water comes out of the tailpipe. We're at least ten years away before we'll see any kind of distribution system for consumers to easily get hydrogen. Until then research continues on new ways to produce hyrdrogen, new ways to store and transport it and generally improving the cars that will run on it.

- jamie

[3rdrail]

Hydrogen is superior to any battery for energy storage. I see us eventually using solar collectors to generate electricity, using part of the electricity to break water into hydrogen and oxygen. At night, part of that hydrogen will be used to generate electricity and the rest will be used for transport vehicles throughout the day.

[DKS]

A car with a 220 mile range would be totally useless in most parts of this country.

Perhaps, but it would sure satisfy the needs of a substantial number of urban commuters, particularly in the Northeast, with how many million of us doing our 20-100 mile round trip every day. Plus all of those soccer moms and dads carting kids around, and the countless errands out to the store and back. It may represent activity in relatively small parts of the country, but I think the impact is enormous.

[DKS]

Hydrogen is superior to any battery for energy storage. I see us eventually using solar collectors to generate electricity, using part of the electricity to break water into hydrogen and oxygen. At night, part of that hydrogen will be used to generate electricity and the rest will be used for transport vehicles throughout the day.

Unfortunately this technology has some issues. Water electrolysis is currently inefficient; only about half of the electrical energy is converted into chemical energy. Plus, it's a very slow process. Adding an electrolyte to speed up the process introduces toxic byproducts and shortens electrode life. To make useful amounts of hydrogen by this means would require vast solar collector arrays and enormous electrolysis systems. Add to this the fact that fresh water is an increasingly dear commodity, I have a suspicion that other technologies may prove more desirable.

[Robbman]

I I have always found it exceedingly odd that the liberal left, who purport to be champions of the working union man in this country, also claim that that same worker is incapable of building a decent car.

Moderator abuse.  Please retract this statement. 

[sirenwerks]

I'm not so sure about the inefficiency of hydrogen system. It wasn't long ago that I read an article (in what mag or paper escapes me) of a mostly-off-the-grid home on one of the islands in Puget Sound, that makes it's own hydrogen using solar cells and then consumes it during peak hours, which bumps up the efficiency of the system as a whole. That's a prime example of how a non-grid system could work. Yes, the economy of scale's not there yet, but if you turned the type of money Obama has threatened @ strengthening or rebuilding the grid, towards developing non-grid alternatives (gosh, I hate that world, so 80s) and making it market affordable, the fuel has a much greater potential. This is especially true if you can replace (stationary) batteries with a technology such as Beacon Power's flywheel storage system, which depends mostly on precision rather than expensive, rare harvested ores & chemicals like batteries do. Couple those to mobile systems by either using the hydrogen created as direct fuel for a mobile drive or to charge an electric drive and we're talking much more efficiency. Of course, we're also talking major cultural shift too.

Perhaps, but it would sure satisfy the needs of a substantial number of urban commuters, particularly in the Northeast, with how many million of us doing our 20-100 mile round trip every day.

Speaking of major cultural shift, the best move Northeastern US residents can make is better hub-based community design, centered on public transport incorporating a variety of modes including train, bus, car, and pedestrian. Look @ Amsterdam. Again, major cultural shift, as we would need to relearn how to slow down and potentially do less, or really be more efficient. Let's face it, we're spoiled & while we think our multi-tasking is efficiency in action, it's horribly wasteful much of the time because of it is for inane reasons. Soccer Mom's follow careful schedules and are proud when they carry them off, but why not allow the child to ride the bus (the one they just cut off in traffic) and gain important social skills while at it? Oh yeah, the world's a dangerous place... Not if there are less people in their cars and more on the street watching. The biggest problem is, who will volunteer to go first? But that movement's afoot through those who sacrifice ease and ride the bus or their bike (can we talk about the personal and systematic health benefits of this, and ultimately cost benefit too?). The government is not the one that needs to do for us, because ultimately it's a civic machine driven by us. So who will join the pre-machine civic movement next? My apologies for going on. I just wasted a lot of energy.

[DKS]

I just wasted a lot of energy.

True, sorry to say.

Think about the carbon footprint of a hobby like model railroading, and it gets really depressing.

Might be time to change the subject...

[Mark5]

Hydrogen is superior to any battery for energy storage. I see us eventually using solar collectors to generate electricity, using part of the electricity to break water into hydrogen and oxygen.

There aint enough fresh water on the planet to supply this, agriculture, drinking water, etc.

Hydrogen power is a dead end in terms of mass implementation.

[tom mann]

Getting back to ExactRail.com, did anyone order from them?  They haven't shipped my order yet >

BTW, I am ExactRail customer number 15...

[Chris333]

Tom,
If you want to talk about Exactrail, please start your own topic  ;D

[tom mann]

Tom,
If you want to talk about Exactrail, please start your own topic  ;D

lol...almost spit out my drink... ;D

[bobcat]

I I have always found it exceedingly odd that the liberal left, who purport to be champions of the working union man in this country, also claim that that same worker is incapable of building a decent car.

Moderator abuse.  Please retract this statement. 

Gimme a break :, did he mention any French people running for cover, surrendering due to fireworks at EuroDisney? ;D

[Walkercolt]

T. Boone Pickens wants us to use his natural gas of motor fuel. Fine. The CNG Honda Civic has the trunk-space of less than 1/4 cubic foot because of the CNG tank, and only has a range of about 240 miles and take 6 hours to refill, just like our old CNG church bus did. The first half a tank(300 psi) goes in quickly, but the last 300PSI takes hours. Hydrogen is even worse. A standard pick-up(200HP) running on hydrogen needs a tank 6 feet long and 5 feet in diameter to travel 150 miles. Why can I be so exact? Tulsa University and Oklahoma State Universities Mechanical Engineering students hold an "alternitive energy" vehcile competion each year. Some years, OU plays too. BTW, if you cover the entire state of Arizona with the brand new "thin-film" solar panels they make(go to Sanyo.com), and 365.25 days a year the sun shines without a cloud in the sky, and you can "store" the energy at night some way(not a way known to man at this time) it wouldn't power Las Vegas. Nevada transmitted thru superconductors. Do you realise, the International Space Stations' solar arrays(and light at 300 miles up is 4 times brighter than on Earth...no atmoshpere) are larger than three football fields? And the station's "climate control" is adjusted by it's orientation to the sun. The water distillation unit they sent up(to turn urine into drinking water) took more energy than they expected, so they can't use it yet. Solar power...the sun don't shine all day...wind power...the wind don't blow from the right direction at the right speed all the time. Both are "perpetual motion" gimmicks. How much energy does it take to MAKE a solar panel, vs: it's output over it's life? About twice as much. Wind Turbines? The blades take about 12 times the energy to make than the wind turbine will produce in it's life. My cousin was working for Trinity Industries here in Tulsa as a engineer, 'til they shut down the plant making really big wind turbines last Dec. Now he works for Arrow Engines, who make 1900's technology engines to run pump-jacks for oil wells. Guess which company is making money?

[Mr. G]

I I have always found it exceedingly odd that the liberal left, who purport to be champions of the working union man in this country, also claim that that same worker is incapable of building a decent car.

Moderator abuse.  Please retract this statement. 

Gimme a break :, did he mention any French people running for cover, surrendering due to fireworks at EuroDisney? ;D

Is there something in the water here lately?  I'd like to remind the folks here that we're on this forum to discuss grown men (and women) talking about playing with tiny trains.  TINY TRAINS!!!  Let's maintain perspective.

[Mark4]

Both are "perpetual motion" gimmicks. How much energy does it take to MAKE a solar panel, vs: it's output over it's life? About twice as much.

Ah, yes. The proclamations of the wilfully uninformed.
Energy payback on a typical thin-film silicon module is around 18 months. Expected lifetime? > 25 years

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf