From four came 10,000 - steam locomotives

[3rdrail]

Several ideas were mentioned on the InterMountain steam locomotive topic, so I thought I would reintroiduce an idea I had some years back. Do y'all recall the MDC Roundhouse mid-sized steam locos that were sort of interchangeable? There were basically three boiler shells, three tender bodies, and four wheel arrangements, which were 4-4-2, 2-6-2, 4-6-0, and 2-8-0. The boiler shells were ATSF, PRR, and Harriman, but each would fit all four mechanisms.

Why not carry it a little further? Add a fourth boiler shell, perhaps B&O or NYC,  even NP, or make history with a Camelback!  Then, add three different cylinders, slide valve, inboard sloped piston valve, and standard piston valve, which would require outside valve gear. With separate cabs, wood and steel types, or in the case of PRR, single and dual window could be offered, along with centered and high headlight smokebox fronts. Tenders could be uniform height, raised coal bunker, raised coal bunker inset, and Vanderbilt, with oil "tops" for all.

If you then add a variety of pilots, like steel, wood, boilertube, and footboards, air pumps in Westinghouse dual singles and compound, and NYAB, and a half dozen tender trucks, you'll be able to make hundreds of models from four basic sets of parts.

Ready to run? They could be assembled after the order is placed and delivered in a week or so.

So, what do y'all think?

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Isn't that essentially what MP was working toward with their 2-6-0 and 4-4-0s? I believe that lots of parts were semi-interchangeable, and the undecs came with most if not all the parts.

I'd love to see that line continue and grow to include a 4-6-0, 4-4-2 and maybe even a 2-8-0.

Shoot, I wonder how much compatibility there is between their USRA Mikes and Pacifics and these too.

[3rdrail]

Isn't that essentially what MP was working toward with their 2-6-0 and 4-4-0s? I believe that lots of parts were semi-interchangeable, and the undecs came with most if not all the parts.

I'd love to see that line continue and grow to include a 4-6-0, 4-4-2 and maybe even a 2-8-0.

Shoot, I wonder how much compatibility there is between their USRA Mikes and Pacifics and these too.

Yeah, it was. The undecorated 4-4-0's and 2-6-0's came with alternate cylinders, pilots, cabs, smokebox fronts and tender trucks. Both sets were included. I just carried it much further, but Clarence Menteer at MDC started it.

[wm3798]

Yes, that's what I was talking about...  And to carry it a bit further, set up the boiler so the steam dome and sand domes could be changed out also, or even rearranged depending on your prototype.

This is where the whole RTR thing has ******** the creativity of the hobby (and I mean that in the sense of a retarder slowing down equipment rolling into a yard...).

20 years ago, this type of product would have greeted with enthusiasm.  These days, however, hobbyists are less inclined to do the finish work, so I'm not sure how well it would fly.  I know you mentioned "built to order" but I have a feeling the cost of this would put it out of the ballpark price wise.

Lee

[wcfn100]

These days, however, hobbyists are less inclined to do the finish work, so I'm not sure how well it would fly.  I know you mentioned "built to order" but I have a feeling the cost of this would put it out of the ballpark price wise.

Of course we all know that just because people don't actually model that much anymore, it doesn't stop them from buying, even kits that they'll never build.  I would look at more of a limited run situation that isn't dependant on pre-orders but say just 50 kits. You could sell 5-10 to people who would actually put it together and 20-30 to those who buy thing to have and then the remaining when the good builders show their work on some forum and a second wave of buyers comes through.  As for price, some people won't mind paying a premium for a quality product, and there are those who won't mind paying extra if it's something that not everyone will own (still has to be quality).

To put in a different perspective.  You could do the same thing with interurban kits.  If you had a quality "steeple" cab type kit with lots of modifications available, you could sell out a small run at about any price within reason.

The main key is showing the finished work.   I think companies like Father Nature" and JnJ miss out on a lot of sales because they only show the shells in their crude form.  And the work needs to be done by "regular" guy.  If you've ever had a chance to see the GHQ display you would be very impressed. But in the back of your head you expect these models to be flawless since he has builders working for him and it's probably 5x harder to make the master than put the pieces together.  But if you show the same model on an on-line forum from a regular member, there becomes a big buzz and people are very interested.


Jason

[jmlaboda]

"I would look at more of a limited run situation that isn't dependant on pre-orders but say just 50 kits."

At 50 kits the price would be so high that they would never be able to recover their tooling costs, let alone sell all of the kits.  500 is more of a figure that would be reasonable and even then, depending on the way they are made, the costs could be out of reach for all but a chosen few.

No matter which way a person looks at it it is expensive to bring out a product.  A steeple cab would likely be easier than steam, as an example, because such could be etched brass (like what the Model Railroader Warehouse does), assembled possibly on one of the critter power chassis that Kato offers. 

Steam on the other hand could be more costly since casting them is expensive irregardless of whether you use styrene, resin or some sort of relatively soft metal.  But the idea of what M.D.C./Roundhouse did in HO could be done in N, with a lot of shared parts being a benefit in regards to production.  The problem there is simply to get a company to buy the idea, which would be harder than people might believe.

[wcfn100]

At 50 kits the price would be so high that they would never be able to recover their tooling costs, let alone sell all of the kits.  500 is more of a figure that would be reasonable and even then, depending on the way they are made, the costs could be out of reach for all but a chosen few.

I'm not dilutional enough to think that a major manufacturer would ever do this.  It would have to be a small company doing castings. 


Jason

[Walkercolt]

GHQ lost his shirt on the boilers he made for Kato Mikes. I think he's lost money on everything he's done in N-scale, truth be told. There isn't nearly as much money to be made as it looks like on kits, modifications, etc. Getting the master made(usually needs to be brass) is a killer. More masters, more money. Like it or not, N-scale is an R-T-R scale, and except for the extreamly few, always will be. Micro-Trains got outta the kit business(which I hate, because I liked putting them together), there has to be a reason. Oh, I got it! MONEY! Even paying minimum wage, it costs something for the cars to be assembled. So obviously, they make more money selling assembled cars than kits, even when the kits were only .40 cheaper than RTR's. So did InterMountain get out of kits. Sadly, the market ain't there. There's a company that in HO, makes some of the finest resin freight car kits imaginable. They looked at N-scale, and walked away. Would have offered prototype correct cabooses...just not enough market for them. :'(

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Interchanability? Proto specific parts? Talk to Intermountain. I received a few kit versions of their F series. Think of N scale versions of the Highliner shell. The DB hatches, fans, doors, grills and other parts are all produced on a sprue. So doinf different style sand domes, and cabs woulden't be so far fetched.

What would need to be done is find a driver set/size that fits the most prototypes. Then once the boilers and other parts are done, see what can be adapted to other driver sizes while sticking to prototype specs. It would be hard and require a lot of research but it could be done.

I think they should focus on the biggest steam sellers: BO, PRR, NYC UP, SP BM, NW, CO.... see what could be adapted from their plans.

[Iain]

What would be good would be 'catalog' steamers, such as the ubiquitous Baldwin 4-6-0 etc.

[ljudice]

The problem is that this forum represents the extreme 5 percentile of modellers...

I was at the LHS last week and a guy was there who said he modelled the New Haven, but he was buying a Big Boy and a set of Kato Coalporters. There was less angst in the transaction than when I debate myself for a week over models that have conspicuity stripes.

The manufacturers (possibly with the exception of Atlas), seem to be exclusively catering to this type of buyer now, with a few crumbs here and there (freight cars, etc...) to fill out the production schedule in the factory in China (assuming the Kids Meals toys are finished).

[Ed Kapuscinski]

We are indeed the 5%. Maybe less.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't get what we want... because here's the thing.

If 95 people don't care and would buy anyway, but 5 more will only buy if it's "correct", wouldn't it make sense to make it correct and get 100 sales instead of 95?

That is, of course, only if getting it "right" takes less than 5% more money.

[Dave V]

I was at the LHS last week and a guy was there who said he modelled the New Haven, but he was buying a Big Boy and a set of Kato Coalporters. There was less angst in the transaction than when I debate myself for a week over models that have conspicuity stripes.

I have never in my life understood that mentality. 

When I model a railroad and era, that's what I buy.  In fact, I've been sitting on the fence for a year now on expanding my era to include CR and PC.  But even so, there will be no Big Boys, Challengers, or SD70MACs on my layout.  Neither will I jump on the "iconic" models like the Daylight or the Super Chief.  It only so happens that Kato's new icon, the Broadway Limited w/ GG1 fits my era.

Are we really that small a minority that we care what we run?  That "looks really cool" is not the only litmus test we give something before we place it in service?  Or are we missing out on fun?  To me, anyway, I always felt re-creating a plausible scene was more fun than just running cool stuff.

Food for thought, I guess.

[FrankCampagna]

Are we really that small a minority that we care what we run?  That "looks really cool" is not the only litmus test we give something before we place it in service?  Or are we missing out on fun?  To me, anyway, I always felt re-creating a plausible scene was more fun than just running cool stuff.

There will always be people who think differently from you. That does not necessarily make either of you wrong. Just different. What if every model railroader modeled the same scene, in the same era, with the same equipment, and with absolute accuracy? Would you consider that model railroad heaven?

Frank

[Mr. G]

I can't say I agree.  I'm more likely than you guys to be one of the buyers who picks up something that I may never run, just because I can and fear I should.

While this is largely limited to engines, I feel that one has to grab what comes out these days, even if there's only a remote chance of using it.  For example, I'm a die-hard steam and SP fan, but I'm working (slowly) on pieces for an Nn3 logging layout.  While I won't buy a Big Boy, I had to reserve an AC-12 and pick up the relatively recent 4-4-0, 2-6-0s, and 2-8-0s.  I've developed a Depression-survivor mentality with models.  For so many years, N scale had very little and it was a matter of picking through hobby swaps to find super rare brass just to have anything to run that wasn't a Pacific or a Mike.  Now that we have the models, and manufacturers have pinned us down to reserving what we want, I want to know I'll have the engines should the need arise.  The engines may not be dead on, but I'd much rather have a reasonable basis for a project.