Offboard sound

[ATSF_Ron]

I have several BLI steamers and an Athearn diesel with DCC/Sound.  I'm just not knocked out with onboard N scale sound.  It's too wimpy and "tinny" sounding to my ears.  I recall reading Lance Mindheim's write up using offboard sound a while back.

https://lancemindheim.com/about-us/wireless-headphone-sound/

Has anyone tried this?  Please provide feedback if you have.  I'm seriously considering buying the components and wiring it up.  My thought is a good quality set of headphones or even computer speakers would give me the effect I'm looking for.  That deep bass rumble from a prime mover or steam loco chuffs just isn't possible with the itsy bitsy speakers we have to contend with in our N scale locos.

Thanks!

ATSF Ron

[peteski]

No, no bass rumble from N scale locos, but when I look if from the angle that we are long scale from the tiny model, the sound doesn't sound all that bad.  Think about how a 1:1 loco would sound like from 1/4 mile away.

Years ago one  of my NTRAK club members built a diesel sound simulator and connected it to the DC throttle output which ran locomotives on his engine service facility module on his NTRAK module.  He had that simulator connected to his home HiFi audio and connected to a 3-way speaker system from his home (with something like 12" woofer.  That show was housed in a large Shriner's auditorium. He had that thing cranked pretty loud. Loud enough to feel the bass rumble in your stomach when you were within around 20 feet of the speaker.  You could clearly hear it on the other end of the auditorium (few hundred feet away).  After few hours of this auditory torture few of us developed headaches.  Not for me.

Basically, the loud sound to me is a gimmick.  I much rather hear the lower volumes sounds where my ears can hear the sound moving around the layout with the model itself and not tied to listen to a single sound decoder hardwired to the headphones (as each loco will have different sounds of the engine/chuffs, whistles and bells).

BLI also has the Sound of Thunder  ^TM system which can give you those loud   sounds from every Paragon3 and 4 decoder.

[nickelplate759]

No, no bass rumble from N scale locos, but when I look if from the angle that we are long scale from the tiny model, the sound doesn't sound all that bad.  Think about how a 1:1 loco would sound like from 1/4 mile away.

Years ago one  of my NTRAK club members built a diesel sound simulator and connected it to the DC throttle output which ran locomotives on his engine service facility module on his NTRAK module.  He had that simulator connected to his home HiFi audio and connected to a 3-way speaker system from his home (with something like 12" woofer.  That show was housed in a large Shriner's auditorium. He had that thing cranked pretty loud. Loud enough to feel the bass rumble in your stomach when you were within around 20 feet of the speaker.  You could clearly hear it on the other end of the auditorium (few hundred feet away).  After few hours of this auditory torture few of us developed headaches.  Not for me.

Basically, the loud sound to me is a gimmick.  I much rather hear the lower volumes sounds where my ears can hear the sound moving around the layout with the model itself and not tied to listen to a single sound decoder hardwired to the headphones (as each loco will have different sounds of the engine/chuffs, whistles and bells).

BLI also has the Sound of Thunder  ^TM system which can give you those loud   sounds from every Paragon3 and 4 decoder.

I remember that!   Sooooo irritating after 10 minutes.

[sirenwerks]

I always thought wearable sound units would be an option for larger, better sounding speakers. If one will wear a hat with beer cans or a cheese block, why not?

[ATSF_Ron]

Peteski, it’s not so much about volume as it is sound quality. I have a small layout room anyway and don’t care for loud volume emanating from the trains or having the sounds follow the trains. I do recognize that at lower volumes most of the sounds aren’t too objectionable. The low frequencies are the bigger disappointment for me.

[ednadolski]

This was recorded 'live', that is, with the camera mic picking up the ambient sound coming over the subwoofer, so it sounds a lot louder on the video than in-person.   I try to keep the volume as low a possible, but not any lower, to balance out the level from the subwoofer with the sound level of the onboard decoder.  Overly-loud sound levels wear thin pretty quickly, at least to me.  Overall I find this to be fairly effective forthis use case, as one does get the impression that the sound 'moves' along with the locos, at least to some degree.

This vid is getting a bit long in the tooth, as I have improved the operation by going to the ProtoThrottle.  I'll probably make a new video once I get the cars updated with Andrew's new N-Possible coupler.

FWIW, I don't think that 'offboard' sound is all that effective in the case of larger layouts, with multiple consists operating in near-proximity.  The competing sounds from too many sources gets to be pretty cacophonous.

Ed

Edit - I like to imagine the plumes of diesel exhaust coming from the models, as in this vid:

[peteski]

Peteski, it’s not so much about volume as it is sound quality. I have a small layout room anyway and don’t care for loud volume emanating from the trains or having the sounds follow the trains. I do recognize that at lower volumes most of the sounds aren’t too objectionable. The low frequencies are the bigger disappointment for me.

Then I think wearing headphones would give you better low frequency sound than an external speaker/subwoofer.  Wavelength of low frequency sounds is so long that they bounce around a room (reflect from the walls) in a way that in certain spots where you stand they will be actually amplified and sound louder, but just a foot or two away they will partially cancel out and the sound will be lower.  With headphones that effect doesn't exist because the transducers in the headphone feed your ear directly (acoustically coupled).

[Rasputen]

  That deep bass rumble from a prime mover or steam loco chuffs just isn't possible with the itsy bitsy speakers we have to contend with in our N scale locos.

How is the speaker mounted in that Athearn diesel you are referring to?  If it does not have an enclosure, change it for one and re-evaluate it.  Regarding the BLI steam locomotives, all of them have a pretty poor chuff sound that never seems to be synchronized with the drivers from the factory.  You can change a CV to fix the chuff rate, but I have been unable to get a decent chuff sound out of any BLI decoder.  Go listen to a TCS Wow-sound steamer with a proper speaker/enclosure and you will hear what is possible.   Similarly, listen to an ESU equipped diesel with a proper speaker/enclosure.

[jdcolombo]

How is the speaker mounted in that Athearn diesel you are referring to?  If it does not have an enclosure, change it for one and re-evaluate it. 

This.

I have yet to encounter a really good factory speaker installation.  I understand why - they have to have something that is "assemble-able" and therefore can't engage in the kind of custom work that we can do with our own locomotives.  The results are poor enclosures; enclosures that are not air-sealed; or even just bare speakers mounted on a board.  But that in turn means that factory sound is always inferior to what you can achieve on your own.

As others have pointed out, it is true that you won't get any really low bass from an N-scale sound install (nor will you in HO scale, either).  Low bass requires large drivers, or small drivers with extended excursion sitting right next to your ear (e.g., headphones).  But you can get frequency response down to 200 hz, which is either at the high end of bass or low end of midrange depending on your definition.  You get this by using the largest cell-phone style flat speaker with extended excursion you can that is set in a completely air-tight enclosure that is as large as you can make it.  In steam locos, you should easily be able to use a 13x18mm speaker in a fairly large enclosure (8mm deep) in all but the smallest tenders; if 13x18 won't fit, use 11x15.  In diesels, try for a 9x16mm and get as much enclosure size as possible; sometimes this requires being creative with the enclosure shape, like using an "offset" box where you extend the enclosure on one end of the speaker to add internal space.

Using "best practices" on speakers, here is what is achievable even with very little room:

And here is what you can get with more room:

None of this sounds "tinny" to me, although I admit the lack of true low bass.  But having the sound come directly from the engine is far more realistic to me than the "under table" option for anything other than a very small layout.

John C.

[jdcolombo]

Actually, I should have posted a video of a BLI steamer, since you said you have several of them.

Here's a video of a BLI Mikado with an ESU Loksound decoder and an 11x15 speaker in an appropriate sealed enclosure (I stripped out the factory speaker and Paragon decoder):

Again, I don't think this falls on the "tinny" side, although the original factory sound did . . .

John C.

[tehachapifan]

If anyone turns up their nose at John's video examples, they will never be satisfied. That said, all we can do is keep fighting the good fight in showing that incredible sound is possible in N scale with onboard sound.

[wmcbride]

Actually, I should have posted a video of a BLI steamer, since you said you have several of them.

Here's a video of a BLI Mikado with an ESU Loksound decoder and an 11x15 speaker in an appropriate sealed enclosure (I stripped out the factory speaker and Paragon decoder):

Again, I don't think this falls on the "tinny" side, although the original factory sound did . . .

John C.

John is the speaker/sound man!

I looked ruefully at my latest ScaleTrains purchase with the HOLES in the fuel tank to let the sound out...

[jagged ben]

I still say that, while it's true that we'll never get incredible base out of tiny onboard speakers, the full potential of sound file editing has also yet to be realized.  Add this on top of John's apt comments about speaker enclosures etc.

[ATSF_Ron]

Rasputen, I’ve never popped the shell off my ATSF F45, but looking at spookshow Mark’s pics it appears there’s no actual speaker enclosure other than the loco shell. So even though that particular loco sounds ok, I’d think it could be improved with an actual enclosure.

I have an Athearn challenger w/sound that’s far superior to the BLI steamer sounds. Idk the reasons for that, but it’s definitely more realistic than the BLI sounds.

John, even on my crummy computer speakers I can tell your install is better. I just don’t have the energy or will to tear apart several N scale sound equipped steamers and do the work. Kudos to you for your efforts! 👍🏻