Squeaking ConCor/Kato S-2 Northern

[mmagliaro]

I understand, Max. It all depends on the squeak, though. When the brakes were squeaking on one of my Hudsons, it drove me batty because it was too cyclical and constant and that's not realistic. Real railroad noises tend to be random like the metallic zinnnnggggs from brakes against wheels, for instance.

My Big Boy very occasionally squeaks a bit but it's very seldom and random so I leave it alone. I know it's lubricated OK so I'm not worried about wear (although I DO wonder where the heck it's coming from). If it gets worse, however, I will investigate.

Some of my really old RoCo-built freight cars (A1G, Minitrix, etc.) squeak a bit as the plastic in the journals have developed a powdered plastic coating from wear and the axle ends, which also have the powder on the ends of them, squeak while turning in there. I clean them and lube with LaBelle 106 if they get too bad.

Doug

Absolutely.... If it were cyclical or had rhythm to it, it would be maddening.  But it does it only when
the drivers go through certain switch frogs or coming out of certain curves, which is where real
engines squeal anyway.  And it isn't nearly so loud anymore.   Pretty crazy.
My best guess is that it is coming from multiple sources.  The wheels grazing across the rails were probably a major
source of it, so by smoothing them, I got rid of a lot of it.  But it is still possible that those bearing-less
axles could squeak sliding back and forth in the brass frame. 

[Doug G.]

You know, now that I went in and listened to my Big Boy again, it's doing a very similar thing that doesn't sound like bearings or anything like that. The squeaking is more like a long duration thing like something rubbing on something else and it does it the same way as your S-2, in some curves or coming out of them or through some switches.

Like I said, though, it is pretty seldom it does it and only at certain (slower) speeds so it doesn't bother me because it almost does sound like scaled down real railroad metallic sounds.

Doug

[victor miranda]

well....

take the traction tires off and see if the squeek goes poof.

... if you are still chasing the reason...

guessing is always fun.

victor

[mmagliaro]

I now have my friend's S-2  temporarily in my possession.  This is a completely unmodified ConCor
(later, Chinese, non-Kato)  4-8-4 S-2.   It squeaks in almost exactly the same way at exactly the same locations
on my layout as my own engine does.

This rules out any blackening, driver swapping, or other things I did to my customized engine as the source of
the squeak.  I'm surprised more people don't grumble about this.  It's a pretty annoying noise.

[victor miranda]

Hi Max,

I guess I need to state this another way.

I am thinking that the squeek is from drivers having mismatched speeds.
... I'll get back to that...

As I understand it the center two axles have a lot of vertical freedom.
in very tight curves the center two should be able to have the flanges ride up
onto the rail head. 

If the driver can go up onto the flange or start to rise, it can see the drop causing a sound.

I am not sure I can do it buuuut  springs on the center axles may fix it.


victor

[peteski]

I'm surprised more people don't grumble about this.  It's a pretty annoying noise.

Maybe it is your layout/track after all?  Would it be possible to run these on other layouts?  Has the friend whose loco you have mention anything about the squeaking on his layout?

[mmagliaro]

Maybe it is your layout/track after all?  Would it be possible to run these on other layouts?  Has the friend whose loco you have mention anything about the squeaking on his layout?

Too many facts contradict that possibility.

1. No other engine I own does this on my layout
2. This engine made this noise on my previous layout
3. My friend's engine make the noise on his layout, which is Kato Unitrack code 80, whereas mine is Atlas 55.

----------------------------

Victor:
None of the drivers on these two S-2's have any vertical freedom to speak of.  I certainly cannot get any of them
off the railhead without lifting the whole engine.  The engine also makes the noise quite regularly
running straight through a switch, running on the straight, not the diverging, route.

The rear traction tire driver on the S-2 is geared, but not pinned to the siderods.   Drivers 2-3 are geared and pinned.
Driver 4 is pinned only.  When I removed drivers 1 and 4 from mine, and ran it only on 2-3 (the two center drivers,
which are pinned and geared), it still made the noise.

I hear what you are saying about uneven speeds: perhaps there is a moment where a driver gets a little hung up
and it drags along for an instant.   I would be be pretty hard to see this.   But I have already eliminated
the traction tire driver as the problem by running without the whole driver.   It could be a forward sliding thing,
but it seems to me it must be a sideways slide that causes this.  That would explain it happening coming
out of curves and going through frogs (where the guard rails pull the drivers left or right to align them through
the switch).

[victor miranda]

not your loco in particular.

anyone know what causes squeeks?

I know hinges can groan and squeek
and chalk done wrong on black board can screech.

besides the noise itself, what is in common with a loco...
 why does the noise get made?

.... you don't suppose the round bearings move a little for some reason
and do a hinge kind of noise?

victor

[peteski]

not your loco in particular.

anyone know what causes squeeks?

This is somewhat helpful:
https://books.google.com/books?id=q6sxBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA588&lpg=PA588&dq=mechanism+of+squeal&source=bl&ots=LSttFlEKoz&sig=Uwn9m6so31VrzNmJnUryfPWPb4A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD0Q6AEwCGoVChMIw46L3senxwIVxm4-Ch0MQg50#v=onepage&q=mechanism%20of%20squeal&f=false

They contribute it to the slip-stick negative instability mechanism (between 2 surfaces).

[Doug G.]

It's a Con-Cor thing.



Doug

[mmagliaro]

Continuing on, I am trying to eliminate the squeak from my friend's S-2.  Let's call this one S-2 "B" just to make things easier.

It squeaks in exactly the same way and locations.   I tried polishing drivers 1-2 with the 2000 grit, but the noise is still there.
I had to do several rounds on mine before I eliminated most of the noise, so I will try some more.

I also realized that all S-2's, even the later Con-Cor ones, do NOT have bearing blocks.  I misread Spookshow's model
locomotive encyclopedia page and I thought that Con-Cor put bearings in these.   Nope.  This one is built just like
the Kato in that regard.

I do have some ideas.  I am going to put a thin layer of Bullfrog Snot onto driver 1 (the one pushed around by the rods.
That will lightly coat the tread and inner flange with rubber.   I will check the noise, then coat driver #2.  That should
pretty readily expose where the noise is coming from.