lets visit "old school"

[victor miranda]

Hi Loyalton,

I have to start with I had not considered "old school"
as a possible path to lower prices.

It is certainly possible.
bachmann has a small steam engine that is close.
in the 0-6-0 and 2-6-2 (I consider them to be the same)

they seem sturdy.  is the approx 40-50 dollars low enough?

other than greed, the final retail prices for the Rivarossi steam
that ConCor sold was without reason.

so we have some evidence that old tooling will not become
lower priced beginner/new-bee equipment.

and then there is the thought that the old shells are pretty good,
how much to raise them to recent standards....

more or less can a far improved loco be made with the old tooling.
so far we have been told and I repeat without emphasis... NO!

who knows ? I think old tooling may be a good path.
it is not exciting though.

right now I am still trying to find a way to keep
old school ideas from reappearing in brand new models.

.... I am not sure we all agree about what the criticisim 'old school'
could mean other than opinion about some aspects of the model's manufacture.

and since you bring up prices.... or possibly keeping them down
the fact is that a lot of models use lower price options
and that does not translate to a lower price at the store where I buy it.

... b-mann charges a lot for a heavy mountain. I am not a believer that the
'precision can motor' in it is worth more than the spectrum motor that preceded it.

there are other examples.

the kind of bargaining you propose seems not to exist except buy or do not buy.

I have no Athearn steamers for that kind of reasoning.

victor

[mmagliaro]

GRAMMAR AND SPELLING EDITS...

Well, since I was mentioned by name, I will just say this:

I suspect a lot of people stay out of conversations like this because they are fraught with the potential for argument.

As for my own opinions:

If "Old school" simply means that a better method has surpassed the old one in terms of quality and reliability,
then yes, I would avoid "Old School" methods.
The devil is in the details of judging "reliability"

Mostly, I'm with you guys on things like axle wipers.

But on the soldered wire thing, not so much.  They are probably a bad idea in a commercial model, but for me and my
own engines, I love them. Why?
Because a soldered wire between engine and tender is 100% perfect, unlike the pressure drawbar wires which, even in engines
as well-made as the Kato Mikado, sometimes lose contact, stall the engine,  and need adjustment or cleaning by me.
In contrast, I can count on one hand the number of times a soldered wire has actually broken off on me in some 20 years.
Granted, I know I have to handle them carefully, I use super flexible wire, and I try to arrange the connections and wire
routing to minimize stress on the wire or solder joints.

So for me, that "old school" method is much preferred because it works perfectly until the odd moment when one of them
breaks, which is rare.  I would rather have something that rarely fails, but is 100% perfect when it has not failed,
as opposed to the more modern drawbar connections that may not suffer from broken wires, but fail to perform
more often.

In a commercial model, the reverse might be true, since repairing a drawbar wire is something that anyone can probably
manage (remove truck, clean or bend wire, etc), as opposed to opening the engine or tender and resoldering.

-----------------------
I tend to agree with some of Victor's sentiment about the low-cost engine options.   I don't see companies using
simpler, cruder methods to make very reliable, if not super-detailed, engines that are good for entry level into the hobby.
People often bring up the old Athearn HO stuff as an example of this: they were famous for making "maybe not the most beautiful"
models, but darn dependable ones.  The old Mantua HO stuff from the 70s was like this too.

But I don't quite see anything like that in our N Scale world.   Perhaps the 1990s Life-Like diesels: they were cheap,
pulled like tanks, ran slow and smooth.  Maybe they had some soldered wires, and the body detailing wasn't the greatest,
and they didn't run like a Kato, but boy, for $15 - $20, it was hard to beat them.  That was a good use of "old school" to make a product with the right balance of cost, dependability, and performance at a lower price point.

[johnh35]

I think the biggest problem with soldering a mass production N scale model is just that, mass production. Soldering when properly performed is great, but in the production world of N scale lokies manufactured in third world countries it is hit and miss. The move to reduce wiring was a great step forward, but proper material is important to ensure proper function over the long haul. The Life Like SD7/9 wipers on the trucks are a prime example. If the wipers are properly bent to make contact, they perform flawlessly. Perhaps a better material for the wipers that retained it's ability to spring back to place better would have helped.

In looking at the new GMD-1, I ponder the path that was chosen. While I have not held one in my hand, I don't like what I see in terms of the mechanism and will probably take a pass.

[mmagliaro]

Excellent point, John (about assembly variability).

One of the reasons I like Kato's engine designs, in general, is that the parts tend to only be able to
fit one way, and they tend to lock solidly into each other without any play or guesswork.
In contrast, Bachmann engines often allow parts to fiddle this way and that, even motor mounts, gears, etc.
When folks "loosen the screws" on a Bachmann cover plate to make the engine run better, that tells
me that the parts tolerances are not good enough, and you are at the mercy of whoever assembled it
to get it right.   Since they can't test every one (or even every 100th one), it not becomes a bit of a crap shoot
as to whether an engine will run well off the assembly line.

And yes, point taken: soldered wires could be big trouble in a mass-production environment like this.

[loyalton]

What are we thinking about when saying "old school"? First generation N scale maybe, or just an older method of doing things? Or?

One thing that has been around for some time now is split frame guts. There already has been a recent discussion about internal frames, but something like that would allow adding chunks of tungsten for traction plus room for a decoder and speakers in a smaller switcher or smaller profile engines like the RS-1/RS-3.

[peteski]

What are we thinking about when saying "old school"? First generation N scale maybe, or just an older method of doing things?

Well ... both.  At least to me. Early N scale uses high-friction mechanisms with brass friction fingers for electric pickup and lots of individually-soldered wires inside. Or steam locos where the tender and the loco each picked up power only on one side of the track.

Those were surpassed by the newer designs. In the cases where the newer designs have proven themselves better (more reliable and better performing and maybe even easier to service) then the previous designs are old-school to me. The actual age of the design is irrelevant to me.

For example Kato introduced the best yet low-friction external bearing/pickup design in 1989. Chronologically it could be considered old, but design-wise nobody has come up with a better performing solution yet.

[Albert in N]

I'll second Kato's design from 1989 forward.  Also, Kato seems to use better metals for their electrical pick up.  Unless gummed up by running on dirty track with fiber (including hair or cat fur), a Kato diesel can sit in a box for years and still run well immediately.  Most other brands require warm up with use of wheel cleaning or more in order to run reliably after storage.  For old guys like me, "old school" refers to the old rubber band drive like Lone Star 000 or Athearn HO Hi-F drive diesels and RDCs.  Also, does anyone remember the vertical single-truck drive Rivarossi N diesels?  Also, remember the old days when an N scale locomotive motor would get really hot after running for 30 minutes?  The plastic shells would almost melt and sometimes the plastic motor parts would melt around the brush plates.  For me, old school also included light bulbs that were fairly dim unless running on more than 6 volts and would get hot enough to melt the plastic body shell area near the bulb.  I  cannot praise enough the diode lighting that arrived with the 2000s.

[peteski]

I'll second Kato's design from 1989 forward.  Also, Kato seems to use better metals for their electrical pick up.  Unless gummed up by running on dirty track with fiber (including hair or cat fur), a Kato diesel can sit in a box for years and still run well immediately.  Most other brands require warm up with use of wheel cleaning or more in order to run reliably after storage.  For old guys like me, "old school" refers to the old rubber band drive like Lone Star 000 or Athearn HO Hi-F drive diesels and RDCs.  Also, does anyone remember the vertical single-truck drive Rivarossi N diesels?  Also, remember the old days when an N scale locomotive motor would get really hot after running for 30 minutes?  The plastic shells would almost melt and sometimes the plastic motor parts would melt around the brush plates.  For me, old school also included light bulbs that were fairly dim unless running on more than 6 volts and would get hot enough to melt the plastic body shell area near the bulb.  I  cannot praise enough the diode lighting that arrived with the 2000s.

Right on Albert - you get the picture!

[Freight Train]

When I think of old school I think way back to the 1960's and the infancy of N scale. You had loco's that had electrical pickup in the front truck and powered trucks in the rear. Running short wheel based equipment meant flying through turnouts as going scale speed or slower would cause stalling at the insulated portions of the turnout. And anything made from zamac metal would eventually crumble like a pillar of salt.  Many Rivarossi engines have died from this. Plastic frame locos didn't far much better either. Were not user friendly if they ever needed servicing inside. And god forbid if the plastic frame ever got tweaked you could pretty much forget about having a good running loco. But through all that their were glimmers of light that shown n scale had a life. My first decent running loco was a Arnold Rapido UP F unit with a all metal frame. Sure it sounded like a coffee grinder but the weight of it gave it good electrical pickup and traction force. And the big plus it had all electrical pickup and geared on both trucks! Fast forwarding to the 1980's Kato gave us a new kind of frame that would open the world up to a new way of thinking. And it was something that worked so well that other companies copied the design....i.e. Atlas, Lifelike(Walthers), Athearn and such. Metal to metal contact and the elimination of rat nest wiring. And I personally love the friction free axle cup wipers inside the trucks. Getting away from the soft metal wipers that rub up against the back of the wheels is a big plus here. Microtrains developed the pilot conversion and we filled those gaping holes with truck mounted couplers. Later on it became the norm for manufacturers to design those enclosed pilots on their shells. Rapidos gave away to knuckle couplers and soon others copied those to create a coupler of their own. When I look back at "old school" I once dreamed of n scale running trouble free and effortlessly. We did get there along with some hiccups along the way.  Their is still some manufacturers that just will not give up those old school ways even though it's been proven it can be done much better. Not knocking Model Power but they did try on that last diesel release of all metal FP-7's. Supposably a whole new design. But on receiving mine it harked back to the older Minitrix metal frame F-7's with the soft metal wipers that rubbed against the back of the wheels, wiring from the trucks to the frame. And this loco was suppose to be MT friendly too...well sort of. The metal frame had a hole designed into the frame for mounting the coupler. Two problems here with one that the frame mount was too high and the hole in the frame was larger that the 00-90 screw used to mount the couplers with. Since I couldn't find the Intermountian F unit I really wanted I had to settle for this. It will have to be old school here until Intermountain can make it new school once again. Today some complain about what they got never living though the old school stuff a lot of us went through to get to where we are today. You just don't know how good you got it!

[nscaleSPF2]

A history lesson.

After we destroyed Japanese industry during WWII, the U.S. government sent a few experts to Japan to help them rebuild.  Among these experts was Prof. W. Edwards Deming, an engineer and statistician.  Two of the concepts that he championed were continuous improvement (called kaizen in Japan) and fool-proof design (poka-yoke).  The Japanese not only embraced these concepts, they made them a part of their culture. 

Another significant part of Japanese culture involves a collaborative, group effort that de-emphasizes the individual.

Meanwhile, in this country, most discussions about design and manufacturing are still dominated by individuals who can most effectively "sell" their ideas.  These dominant individuals eventually become "the Boss".  That, friends, is our culture.  We have all seen this happen thousands of times in our careers.  Well documented by Scott Adams' "Dilbert".

So what does this have to do with anything?

Team efforts most often provide better results than a single individual's.  Particularly if the team strives to make continuous improvements.  Difference between old school and best practice.

[peteski]

Team efforts most often provide better results than a single individual's.  Particularly if the team strives to make continuous improvements.  Difference between old school and best practice.

How about Chinese culture? After all, they are the ones who design most of the N scale models sold in US.  Sure, the U.S. companies provide some of the parameters for the new model, but the nuts and bolts design is usually done by the design engineers in China.  Yet, unlike the Japanese designs, they seem to design their models to be as cheap as possible. The quality just doesn't seem to be there (in both materials and execution, and even in assembly).

[Albert in N]

Anyone ever notice that Chinese brass products often rust?  I had this happen several times on plumbing items and noticed that a magnet stuck to it.  Yes, the product package said brass, but it was actually brass plated ferrous metal.  Also, some kitchen and decor items (like lamps) of Chinese brass also fail the magnet test.   It seems logical that brass strips in some of our China made N scale locos are not totally brass, thus part of the problem. 

[victor miranda]

there are a few words for items that do not meet specification.

fraud is often used.

so is that "old school"  or are we going to call it something else?

It is strange to me that steel is used in place of brass
the price of brass is enough higher that it is still
cheaper to form steel...

I am not sure how to go from here.
part of the reason for new school is that the designs are hard to do poorly
unless you work at it.
soldering wires is one example
substituting brass or steel springs for ph-bnz springs will fail pretty quick
and there is not much cheaper than zamac.

victor

[nscaleSPF2]

How about Chinese culture?

I think that you answered your own question, Peteski. 

There are more differences than similarities between the two cultures.  Which helps to explain why there are so many substandard products (not just model railroad stuff) sold here, made in China.

[victor miranda]

I had not thought we'd get a japan/china culture comparo.

when it comes to making n-scale locos
my thinking is that minitrix was very consistant
and Rivarossi was determined to be as low cost as possible and then some.
and whatever outfit is was in Yugoslovia was the worst of all possible
too many parts and none fit and badly assembled.

Old school had a lot of classrooms

right now, I am thinking even the You-go guys would be hard pressed
to make a bad version of the recent Atlas diesels.
(not a challenge, just pointing out how good the design is.)

victor