Author Topic: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima  (Read 3326 times)

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peteski

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2015, 05:59:44 PM »
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Damn that is a lot of reading!

 :D :D :D :D

Yes, lots of reading.  But no photos of the autopsies.  That would have been the crowning touch.
Sure nice of Atlas to keep the forum archive online. There are plenty more of gems like these in the Atlas forum 
. . . 42 . . .

daniel_leavitt2000

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 02:20:36 AM »
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Mashima made motors for things other than trains. The CC and Atlas MP motors use the same casing and plastic components as the smaller Mashima. There are two possibilities: 1. Mashima sourced the casing and other common components from a supplier and simply made the windings and assembled them. 2. Mashima made low end motors for shavers, slot cars, telescopes, CD tray loaders etc.

Does it matter?
There's a shyness found in reason
Apprehensive influence swallow away
You seem to feel abysmal take it
Then you're careful grace for sure
Kinda like the way you're breathing
Kinda like the way you keep looking away

Chris333

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 02:43:42 AM »
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Or someone copied the design and Mashima had nothing to do with it.

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 08:38:34 AM »
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Ok is the Atlas MP15 the one Victor ran till it stopped?  At least say I remembered something correctly  :|  :D

Yep, that's the one. It was to test out the lifespan of the finger brushes.

mmagliaro

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 07:52:29 PM »
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Or someone copied the design and Mashima had nothing to do with it.

Exactly.  Why is it even being considered that these MP15 motors had anything to do with Mashima?
Of all the motor makers in the world who could have made these for Atlas and for Con-Cor, why Mashima?
Just because the cases look the same?  Heck, I've got a bag full of little motors that are about
that size and shape.  That doesn't mean anything.






peteski

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2015, 08:37:03 PM »
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Exactly.  Why is it even being considered that these MP15 motors had anything to do with Mashima?
Of all the motor makers in the world who could have made these for Atlas and for Con-Cor, why Mashima?
Just because the cases look the same?  Heck, I've got a bag full of little motors that are about
that size and shape.  That doesn't mean anything.

Ok then, I'll bite:  If all those motors are pretty much the same, what makes Mashimas so special?  I know the name is highly regarded, but why?  It is after all a conventional permanent-magnet DC motor with iron-core rotor.  Doesn't even use rare-earth magnets or is a coreless motor.
. . . 42 . . .

nkalanaga

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2015, 01:40:04 AM »
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Maybe better quality control?  Since I don't, as far as I know, own any Mashima motors, it's just a guess.
N Kalanaga
Be well

Chris333

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2015, 02:04:52 AM »
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Well I know from the Atlas MP15 motor. It had 3 poles and finger brushes while the same looking Mashima motor has 5 poles and carbon brushes. So what's  inside makes it better or worse.

peteski

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2015, 02:42:21 AM »
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Well I know from the Atlas MP15 motor. It had 3 poles and finger brushes while the same looking Mashima motor has 5 poles and carbon brushes. So what's  inside makes it better or worse.

Ok, that makes sense.

But even Bachmann makes a skew-wound 5-pole motor with replaceable carbon brushes. Max made a general statement that Mashima motors are better than other similar generic motors.  So there has to be something else which makes them better than the rest.
. . . 42 . . .

daniel_leavitt2000

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2015, 03:01:49 AM »
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Or someone copied the design and Mashima had nothing to do with it.

The parts are interchangeable and have the same tooling seems. This would be highly unlikely to come from a knock-off.
There's a shyness found in reason
Apprehensive influence swallow away
You seem to feel abysmal take it
Then you're careful grace for sure
Kinda like the way you're breathing
Kinda like the way you keep looking away

peteski

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2015, 03:13:12 AM »
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The parts are interchangeable and have the same tooling seems. This would be highly unlikely to come from a knock-off.

Well, by the same token you can compare the "real" Kato motor to the Atlas China motors and I'm pretty sure the parts will be interchangable. Knock-offs are copies (so they have same dimensions).  Communist Russians used to copy all sorts of things from the evil Western Empire (from watches to airplanes). If Russians did it, so can others.
. . . 42 . . .

Mastertech

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2015, 09:17:28 AM »
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good now that's covered, how can we find a good replacement, something with a lot better crawl speed, I know right now mine is parked, cause it runs like ^ #@!! I have a lot better other locos that i use for switching. did we ever do a thread on replacement motors?

mmagliaro

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Re: The Con-Cor MP15DC motor is not a Mashima
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2015, 12:12:22 PM »
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good now that's covered, how can we find a good replacement, something with a lot better crawl speed, I know right now mine is parked, cause it runs like ^ #@!! I have a lot better other locos that i use for switching. did we ever do a thread on replacement motors?

Yeah.... um, a Mashima 1015 would be a better motor.  It is about the same size, and it would probably have more
torque and a lower starting speed.  It has a 1.5mm shaft, so you would have to adapt that somehow.
Personally, I'd run the motor and gently grind the shaft down a little with a diamond stone or drum held against it - works quite well actually.

What Chris said is pretty much my answer to Peteski's question: The Mashimas are 5-pole skew-wound motors
and they have a lot of power and low RPM.    What makes them better?  Well a 5-pole skew is going to get
you smoother low speed than a 3-pole straight-wound.  Will it have more torque?   I don't know.  I only
know it's a darn powerful motor for its size. 

The 1015's specs are here:
www.hollywoodfoundry.com/MHK1015.htm?id=32

A maximum power output of 0.35 W  compares to, say, a Faulhaber 1016's max power of 0.36 W.  That's mighty
impressive.  It won't be able to deliver as much torque at lower revs as the Faulhaber, but it's still a darn
powerful motor.

There is a little footnote under these specs posted at Hollywood Foundry that says, "Courtesy of the Eighteen Millimeter Society"   Elsewhere in their pages, they say this:
"We have gone to the trouble of producing drawings for each type of motor, even though Mashima themselves do not provide this information. We also publish both the official Mashima motor specifications and an independent set of specifications and performance figures produced by the Eighteen Millimeter Gauge Society, for which we are grateful."

As for the Bachmann 2-8-0 motor: That is a good motor.  I have a few.  But I do not think it has as much power
as the Mashima 1015 and although it is a little shorter, it is a little bulkier.  The 1015 fits easier into small models.

Remember, the Mashima is a closed can while the Bachmann is open-frame.  That allows the Mashima to
have magnets that more completely surround the armature and get closer to it, which should allow it to
produce more power.  Also, doing a little digging, I found it stated that the Mashima 10mm motors use
neodymium magnets.  I'll see if I can verify this.  If that's true, that would be the ballgame right there.  That's how Maxon started beating Faulhaber in the power competition before Faulhaber started using neodymium (some of there's still use samarium cobalt, which is a "rare earth", but does not generate as strong a magnetic field as neodymium).


I have a "Torque Watch" coming on order.  I finally broke down and bought one.  So soon I will be able to test
the Mashima vs the MP15 vs a Bachmann vs a Faulhaber and report what the real torque numbers are.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 12:19:23 PM by mmagliaro »