Underwhelming sound in Kato Big Boy. Suggestions welcome.

[Vaderta]

So as the title states I have a Kato Big Boy with an ESU sound conversion . It has dual sugar cube speakers in the tender . I have the volume CV set to 192 . I have not messed with individual bell, horn CVs . But the whistle is whisper quiet. Having a few Kato GS4s with one sugar cube speaker in the tender. I can say the Big Boy is disappointing in comparison to the GS4s. I have to turn the volume down in the GS4s because they are too loud. Having stood next to the 4014 as it passed blowing its whistle my Kato Big Boy is not a good representation of real life. Now the other sound on the Big Boy like chuffs and dynamo seem ok. So I am wondering if it is just a sound file from ESU that is not great? A friend suggested that maybe the tender is sealed very good not allowing the sound to escape. But before I drill holes experimenting I was hoping to get some suggestions. I am probably overlooking something that would help. Thanks

[Jbub]

So as the title states I have a Kato Big Boy with an ESU sound conversion . It has dual sugar cube speakers in the tender . I have the volume CV set to 192 . I have not messed with individual bell, horn CVs . But the whistle is whisper quiet. Having a few Kato GS4s with one sugar cube speaker in the tender. I can say the Big Boy is disappointing in comparison to the GS4s. I have to turn the volume down in the GS4s because they are too loud. Having stood next to the 4014 as it passed blowing its whistle my Kato Big Boy is not a good representation of real life. Now the other sound on the Big Boy like chuffs and dynamo seem ok. So I am wondering if it is just a sound file from ESU that is not great? A friend suggested that maybe the tender is sealed very good not allowing the sound to escape. But before I drill holes experimenting I was hoping to get some suggestions. I am probably overlooking something that would help. Thanks

Did you do the install or have someone do it for you. Speaker choice matters when comparing SPL and ohm ratings. Another consideration is the size of the speaker baffle. If they are not big enough for the speaker, they will sound wimpy at best.

[Vaderta]

I had someone do the installation.  The install on this one is beyond my abilities.  That being said I am confident that the installer has everything matched properly.

[Vaderta]

So I made a little progress.  I checked CV 32 to see if it was set to 1 as specified in ESU V5 instructions. It was set to 0. Changed it to 1. Then checked CV 274 and it was value 64. Changed the value to 128 and it is definitely some better. Not perfect but definitely better

[Vaderta]

CV 275 not 274

[Vaderta]

Ok, have it to my GS4 levels. Updated the decoder firmware then raised CVs 196 and 197 to 32 and now it sounds great. Don't know but it seems the firmware update made a big difference

[GGNInNScale]

Hi   There are also adjustment CVs for bass and treble control.  It looks like you found CV 196 (bass) and CV 197 (treble).  From ESU:  "In order for the Tone Control to work, the decoder firmware must be updated to version 5.9.159 (or higher). This is done using the LokProgrammer software 5.2.5 (or newer)."  I think your firmware upgrade took care of a number of issues as well.  I have found that most of my installs with ESU LokSound I have to turn the sound levels down in almost all cases.
Reread your post--  one thing that may have happened also is the speakers (usually 8 Ohm impedance, about 6.8 Ohm DC resistance) may have been wired in series??  If so, your sound levels will have dropped by about 3dB, which is easily detectable.  The newer ESU decoders have a good design for the audio amplifier which allows them to be used with 4 Ohm loads.  If you wire the speakers in parallel, the impedance will be 4 Ohms, and your sound level will increase by 3dB.
It appears you have solved your issue though.

[Vaderta]

Hi   There are also adjustment CVs for bass and treble control.  It looks like you found CV 196 (bass) and CV 197 (treble).  From ESU:  "In order for the Tone Control to work, the decoder firmware must be updated to version 5.9.159 (or higher). This is done using the LokProgrammer software 5.2.5 (or newer)."  I think your firmware upgrade took care of a number of issues as well.  I have found that most of my installs with ESU LokSound I have to turn the sound levels down in almost all cases.
Reread your post--  one thing that may have happened also is the speakers (usually 8 Ohm impedance, about 6.8 Ohm DC resistance) may have been wired in series??  If so, your sound levels will have dropped by about 3dB, which is easily detectable.  The newer ESU decoders have a good design for the audio amplifier which allows them to be used with 4 Ohm loads.  If you wire the speakers in parallel, the impedance will be 4 Ohms, and your sound level will increase by 3dB.
It appears you have solved your issue though.

Thank you. Definitely something I will double check. I am glad to know the firmware was part of the solution.  Sometimes you do something as simple as a firmware update not thinking there will be any noticeable difference. In this case there was at least for me.

With several F7s I have done lately, with just a sugar cube speaker and the plastic bottom and no baffle. The sound has been satisfactory to the point I don't know if I am going to go through the hassle of milling and channeling frames in E units etc. With base, and treble adjustments it almost doesn't seem like it would be worth the while to clearance the frame to fit extra speaker baffles

[tehachapifan]

My money is on there not being an adequately sized and sealed speaker enclosure (or no enclosure at all) on one side of the speaker. In my experience, it is absolutely imperative that one side of the speaker is completely isolated from the other for quality sound (often including increased volume). This is the case with typical N scale installs anyway. You might be able to get away with an open ended "baffle" set up in larger scales or a situation where the sound from one side has to travel quite a distance, thus still isolating it from the other side. In N scale, there is typically not enough distance that can be created for an open-ended baffle set up, so a completely sealed enclosure on one side is usually necessary. A speaker just sitting inside a model with both sides of the speaker openly exposed to each other simply won't cut it. Any chance we can see a photo of the speaker installation? Also, is this N scale?

[peteski]

Kato only made N scale Big Boys.

[Vaderta]

My money is on there not being an adequately sized and sealed speaker enclosure (or no enclosure at all) on one side of the speaker. In my experience, it is absolutely imperative that one side of the speaker is completely isolated from the other for quality sound (often including increased volume). This is the case with typical N scale installs anyway. You might be able to get away with an open ended "baffle" set up in larger scales or a situation where the sound from one side has to travel quite a distance, thus still isolating it from the other side. In N scale, there is typically not enough distance that can be created for an open-ended baffle set up, so a completely sealed enclosure on one side is usually necessary. A speaker just sitting inside a model with both sides of the speaker openly exposed to each other simply won't cut it. Any chance we can see a photo of the speaker installation? Also, is this N scale?

I don't have a photo. But you can see the install video in the DCC forum under ESU installs Kato Big Boy. That being said everything is correct.  In fact every Kato Big Boy I see online the whistle is underwhelming.  The tweaks i did on the Lokprogrammer above has remedied my issues. Now it sounds as it should. So nothing with the install was the issue. I think whatever sound file ESU used is so low tone it needs some adjustments to the CVs to make it sound like the train should instead of it sounding like it is another room. If you listen to most online they all sound similar which is muted. So I am happy I was able to find the correct settings and firmware to make everything sound to scale.