Fast Tracks Turnout Point Assistance needed

[mike_lawyer]

Hey guys -

I have a difficult circumstance with a Fast Track #7 turnout that I have already installed and I need some advice.  Long story short is that I need to replace the Throwbar on the switch below, as the copper cladding has come loose from the tie, and I don't know the best way to do it.  One of the problems I am having is that when I try soldering the points to a new throwbar and try to get them nice and tight to the stock rails, I keep accidentally soldering the points rail to the stock rail.  I have tried inserting a piece of paper between the point rail and the stock rail, but I still am getting the two rails soldered together.

Here are some photos of the situation:





I am also having trouble generally with getting the points just right on my Fast Track switches. I try to get them so they close nice and tight, but I am getting situations where the switch is in the divergent position, and my Kato Mikado will want to climb out of the switch and proceed straight, even with the point nice and tight to the stock rail.  Any help with getting points perfect would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

Mike

[prr7161]

One thing to try on keeping the throwbar free is to wrap the paper around the stock rail like a sling, so that the foot of the stock rail is separated from the throwbar.  A slip of paper on edge in between the rails can still have solder slip under and weld the throwbar to the stock rail.

On the Mikado, I would get out the trusty NMRA gauge and check the flangeway at the first soldered tie behind the throwbar.  That area can get tight for 8-drivered locomotives and encourage them to hop, which could lead to the bad behavior at the switch.  It could also possibly be solder buildup in the web of the diverging point, which will affect steam locomotives more than other rolling stock because of the greater exposure of the driver flange to whatever is going on with the rail.

[nkalanaga]

When I have to repair one of my throwbars, I throw the switch the other way, and use a piece of stripwood between the loose point and the stock rail.  Choose a piece that fits the gap you want, and the point should be properly positioned without sticking to the rail.

[mmagliaro]

On the Mikado climbing... you sound like you are focussed on making sure the point rail closes tight against the stock rail so that a wheel can't roll up on the edge of it.  That's good.  But when you see the Mikado climb, check to make sure that it isn't actually climbing up onto the OPEN point rail, due to the wheels or point rails being out of gauge.  If the wheels are a hair narrow, that opposite wheel will roll right up on the open point rail tip.  Conversely, if the point rails are spread a bit too wide, the same thing can happen even if the wheels are in gauge.  I have been fooled by this more than once, filing the closed point rail and otherwise fiddling with it, only to find out it was the OPPOSITE OPEN point rail that was causing the climbing. 
As for the soldering, I do what the other posters have already suggested. If you solder the point rail while it's closed, that piece of paper has to go UNDER the stock rail and up the other side, like a sling.  But I usually just solder the open point rail, then move the throwbar over and hold it in place to lock that point rail against its stock rail, and then solder the other open rail.  I don't get the throwbar stock to the stock rail that way, but if you do, use the paper "sling".

[Angus Shops]

On the Mikado climbing... you sound like you are focussed on making sure the point rail closes tight against the stock rail so that a wheel can't roll up on the edge of it.  That's good.  But when you see the Mikado climb, check to make sure that it isn't actually climbing up onto the OPEN point rail, due to the wheels or point rails being out of gauge.  If the wheels are a hair narrow, that opposite wheel will roll right up on the open point rail tip.  Conversely, if the point rails are spread a bit too wide, the same thing can happen even if the wheels are in gauge.  I have been fooled by this more than once, filing the closed point rail and otherwise fiddling with it, only to find out it was the OPPOSITE OPEN point rail that was causing the climbing. 
As for the soldering, I do what the other posters have already suggested. If you solder the point rail while it's closed, that piece of paper has to go UNDER the stock rail and up the other side, like a sling.  But I usually just solder the open point rail, then move the throwbar over and hold it in place to lock that point rail against its stock rail, and then solder the other open rail.  I don't get the throwbar stock to the stock rail that way, but if you do, use the paper "sling".

This. I have found that Fastracks jigs do have you place the point rails too far apart, so that there is not a wide enough gap between the open point and the adjacent stock rail. I’ve adjusted a far number of my switches. I’ve found that my Atlas GP 7/9’s were very prone to picking the open point, while my IM and Kato F’s just sail through no problem, even after check and double checking the sheet gauge.
Geoff

[robert3985]

I've had to do this to several of my older-build turnouts when the cladding got weakened from repeated re-solderings and finally ripped off.

I've got Tortoises underneath, so I have to dismount the Tortoise to put another throwbar in, but, this isn't what your problem is, so I'll ignore that part of doing new throwbars for myself.

Before you get started, throw the old solder covered throwbar into the trash.  It has been rendered not functional for this fix.  Now remove any excess solder from the adjacent stock rails.  Ideally they should not have any solder on them at all, but since you've already soldered your closure rail point toes to them, get as much off as possible...particularly any that might be underneath the rail foot, and any that's sticking to the flat surface that mates with the flat surface of the closure rail point toes.

First, cut the new throwbar to its proper length.

Now, carefully gap the new throwbar, either off center, or with two fairly closely spaced shallow gaps at the center of it, wide enough for the hole you'll be drilling next to go between them...but just deep enough to get through the cladding.  Any deeper gaps will weaken the throwbar.

Then, I drill the hole for my Tortoise lever to stick up through, using a larger drill bit to slightly chamfer the hole, both top and bottom.

Also, make sure all the edges are totally de-burred.  LASER-cut PCB ties probably don't have any burrs, but mine are all sheared PCB tie stock, so I have to lightly file the edges of my throwbars, which are standard width tie stock.

Feel the edges and gaps with your fingers to determine if they're de-burred.  Just looking at them won't work...you have to feel them.

Next, I burnish the top surface where I'll be soldering with a pink pencil eraser, that's still mounted to a very sharp #2 or HB pencil. This rubs off the oxidation and give a slight tooth to the copper surface.

I then swipe the throwbar's top copper surface with a Q-tip soaked in Bestine or Heptane rubber cement thinner to remove all of the grease and wax that may on it.

Now, when I'm handling the throwbar, I'll use my angled fine tweezers to keep my greasy fingers off of it, or hold it by the very tips.

Insert the cut-to-proper-length, gapped, drilled and de-burred throwbar into its space between the two headblocks under the detached (from the throwbar) closure rail point toes.

I use toothpicks...square ones that taper to a flat...inserted below the throwbar, bearing against the cork roadbed and the new throwbar, wedging it firmly against the bottoms of both rail feet. You might have to cut the wide ends with a sharp #11 blade to sharpen them up a little so they'll insert easily between the cork and throwbar.

I then take one of the loose closure point rail toes and space it how far I want it from the adjacent stock rail and press down a bit with my finger to make it stay in place...not covering the throwbar with my finger.

Then I take a piece of masking tape and put it across the tops of all the rail close to the closure point rail toe I will be working on...this holds it in place and frees up both of my hands.

I then take my very sharp #2 or HB pencil, and completely cover the space between the flat surface of the closure point rail toes and the flat surface of the adjacent stock rail with a covering of pencil lead markings on the copper cladding of the throw bar.  Blow the excess lead powder off. It's okay to get some pencil lead on the flat surfaces of the closure point toe rails and the adjacent flat surface of the stock rail.

I then carefully place a little drip of Superior No. 30 Supersafe Soldering Flux on the inside edge of the one closure point toe with a small pointy paintbrush...not the vertical side that bears against the stock rail..that I'm working on, and on the copper surface of my PCB throw bar.  One small drop should hit both, and capillary action should suck the flux inside the gap between the closure rail point toes and the top surface of your PCB throw bar.

Since your closure rail point toes are already tinned, you probably aren't going to have to apply much solder to them if any.  This is good and allows you to press down on the closure rail point with your curved stainless tweezers.  Touch the part of the inside of the closure rail point toes where the rail foot sticks out, and watch for the solder to melt after the flux pops and evaporates...hold it a second longer...then remove your iron while still pushing down carefully on the closure rail point with your tweezers.

Let it cool until you see the solder (which should be 96/4 Tin/Silver solder) freeze.  You will note that where you have marked the PCB throwbar with your sharp pencil acts as a barrier, and solder won't stick to it, or even go on it.  That's called an "anti-flux".

Okay, test the joint by wiggling it gently just a bit, then remove your toothpick wedges and masking tape, and press the closure rail point toes against the adjacent stock rail...they should mate perfectly and smoothly.

Time to do the exact same thing to the other side and start by re-inserting the toothpick wedges, but with the side you just completed closed. 

This time, use your NMRA N Standards Gage to determine how wide your gap is going to be.

Ideally the hole you drilled for whatever sticks up through your throwbar to actuate your switch should be in the middle between the two closure rail point toes...but, that's basically for cosmetic effect and has little to do with actual switch function.

After you've done both sides using the toothpick wedges and pencil lead markings as anti-flux, you should be fine, and if you've used 96/4 silver bearing solder and the best flux made, your solder joint should be about as strong as the small surface of the closure rail point toes rail foot allows.

Have FUN!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[robert3985]

After looking at your photos, it appears that there is no foot left on the closure rail point toes you are making. 

And, you're not making your closure rails/point rails quite long enough.  The throwbar doesn't attach to the very tip of the closure point rail toes, but back from those, allowing the point rail toes to rest on one headblock tie, then the throwbar is attached, then there's another headblock tie.  The throwbar is between the two headblock ties and the point rail rests on BOTH headblock ties...prototypically on steel plates attached to both of them so the point rails will slide back and forth, and not be pushed below the height of the adjacent stock rail railheads when a train travels on either point rail.

Uh oh...I see your headblock ties are laser-cut wood...probably from the Fast Tracks tie underlay thingy.  Your long headblock ties should always be PCB ties because they form the bearing for your point rail toes to glide on, and to not go below the stock rail railhead height...which is a major design flaw if Fast Tracks expects this to be robust and long-lasting.  I can see that one of the wooden headblock ties is lower than the rest of the ties and maybe the other one too...major problem.

Photo (1) - Although my turnout construction is different than Fast Tracks, I believe their instructions are for the point rail toes to rest on the headblock tie that is furthest from the frog point, with the throwbar in-between the two headblock ties...which is prototypical, and gives added support to this fragile part of the turnout...both prototypically and on our models:


The rail foot of the half of the point rail on the inside at the point rail toes needs to be present.  Even with it, there's not much for solder to stick to, and with it gone, there is virtually nothing for solder to stick to.  It should form an "L" with the bottom leg of the "L" being what gets soldered to your throwbar, the flat vertical side bearing against the filed down adjacent stock rail.  Without that little horizontal leg, it's an "l"...with nothing to solder to the throwbar. Your closure rails/point rails need to be re-built correctly...correct length, don't file away the inside rail foot.

Photo (2) - Showing the inside railfoot, which on your turnouts should get soldered to your PCB throwbar...and on mine, provide "meat" through which I drill a hole and make a hinge.  It's gotta be there always:


Also, the taper on the outside of the point rails doesn't match where the sharp bend in the diverging stock rail begins...or should begin.  This is going to cause you to have gauge problems and is probably why some of your engines want to climb out because the gauge on your turnouts is too narrow because the apex of the taper...way back from the point rail toes, is hitting the diverging stock rail before the toes are, because the bend in the diverging stock rail either isn't there, or starts too far towards the point of the frog.

I don't know what Fast Tracks tells you to do with your diverging stock rail, but...it should have a "kink"...or a sharp bend in it which starts just past the headblock tie that's furthest from your frog point.  This runs straight for 16' 6"  or often longer, but it's always longer than the straight point rails...then starts to curve, matching the curve in the closure rails, which starts at the point of the frog and continues to the heels of the point rails, which prototypically are separate from the closure rails.

From what I can see, there is not a distinct "sharp bend" in your diverging stock rail, although I see a slight bend, but it starts too much towards the point of the frog.   The toe (which is the sharp tip) of your point rail should start at that kink, or just past the middle of the furthest headblock tie from the frog point...while the "sharp bend" starts just a bit further...like a few scale inches...further from the point of the frog. Hard to explain. So, I'll post a couple of photos.

Photo (3) - Prototype turnout showing the sharp bend that starts the "switch" in the diverging stock rail.  This photo is much foreshortened because it's taken with a telescopic lens but it makes that kink very obvious:


Photo (4) - Proto87Stores tie-plate template for a #6 turnout, which calls out where the sharp bend should begin near the bottom left of the drawing:


Photo (5) - Fast Tracks printable template showing the "sharp bend" in the diverging stock rail and the short, straight switch section...although it isn't called out:


Sooo...to fix this turnout, you're going to have to remove both closure/point rails and make them longer, so the point toes rest on the furthest headblock tie.  When filing the point toes, you must retain the inner rail foot...all of it...to have some surface area to solder to your PCB throwbar.  Then, you have to replace both headblock ties with PCB ties.  If your other turnouts don't have PCB headblock ties, you will eventually have to replace them because this is a major design flaw. Then, you have to de-solder your diverging stock rail and put the "sharp bend" and that straight section (which should be the at least the length of your point rails, but, since you don't have any point rails, that straight section should be about a scale 17' long).  The removal of the diverging stock rail's inner rail foot should start right where the point rail toe ends in the middle of the furthest headblock tie...and that is also where the "sharp bend" in the diverging stock rail begins.  Maybe you can use the old diverging stock rail and just straighten part of it and re-bend it so everything is in gauge, but to do it and use the Fast Tracks aluminum fixture might be problematic.

Frankly, considering all the problems this turnout has, I'd strongly consider removing it and making a new one.

I am going to assume you haven't built many turnouts yet, right?  It took me three turnouts before I got one...the fourth one, to both function properly and look halfway decent, so don't get discouraged.  When I look at photos of those old Code 70 turnouts I had to build to be NTRAK compatible, it makes me shiver because they are pretty basic, with poor soldering and lots of inconsistencies.  However, I didn't have Fast Tracks or anybody to tell me what I was doing wrong...so turnout builders today have all the advantages.

The main problem with Fast Tracks in my opinion is that they skimp on their PCB ties...like at the headblocks and at the frog...both places that need to be strong and stable...and I'm NOT a fan of not having hinged point rails.

Anyway hope this helps...

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[mike_lawyer]

Thanks everyone for the tips.  This is somewhat frustrating in that the turnouts fit perfectly into the FastTracks jig when I soldered everything in place.  I think one of the difficulties is that in N scale, there is much less tolerance on all of the clearances than in HO scale. 

I agree with Bob that one of the design flaws of the Fast Track system is there are not enough PCB ties throughout the turnout to keep everything precisely in gauge. 

Just for kicks, I have a few ME #6 turnouts on the way for another layout.  I will see if I like them.  If so, I might just go with them if I feel it is easier than going the Fast Tracks route.

I am going to try the solder method with the "sling" and see if I can fix this turnout.

Mike

[Sokramiketes]

Bob laid out the intricacies of turnout building.  To answer the first question, sometimes I'll have to solder the rail back in place off of the stock rail.  If solder flows to the other side, then I can remove it with an xacto or file. 

If you then operate the turnout, and the point rail isn't laying vertically in the correct position, IE the rail needs to roll a bit to be snug when thrown that way, then I'll reheat the rail with some pressure against the stock rail.  Since I'm only reheating and not adding flux or solder, it doesn't solder itself to the stock rail. 

This is all emergency fix type stuff when the layout is operating in public!  Bob's points are good to solve the issues during construction phase, or in a more controlled home environment!

[jdcolombo]

Here are a couple of photos from a recent Fast Tracks #6 switch build.

Full turnout.  Notice that I add a couple of PC board ties to keep things in better gauge:

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Next is a close-up of the point area.  As Bob noted, you should have a "foot" on the point rail that solders on to the throwbar.   Without the foot, you'll never get the point rail to stay soldered to the throwbar reliably. Second, notice the distinct "notch" in the foot of the stock rails that allows the point rail to "fit in" to the stock rail seamlessly.  You don't have to get the point rails razor sharp if the stock rail is prepped correctly.

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I've tested this turnout and it works flawlessly.  The point rails were made with the FT Point Form tool, and the stock rails were filed with the Stock Aid tool. 

John C.

[jagged ben]

A few points (no pun intended):

As has been said, you definitely need more foot at the end of the point rail.  For what it's worth, when I have to resolder point rails to throwbars, I stick something under the throwbar to hold it up tight against the points and stock rails if necessary, I hold the point tight against the stock rail with tweezers, and I don't use flux.  I place the soldering iron tip on top of the foot and try to get the solder to partly wick up over the foot to hold the point rail in place.  Solder draws toward the heat so this approach doesn't encourge solder to go under the point too much to where it gets to the stock rail.  Not enough foot, this doesn't work.     
That said, Bob's tricks with pencil lead and masking tape are things I might try next time.

I'm also done with solid closure rails like you've got.  That construction puts tension on the throwbar solder joints whichever direction the points are thrown, which reduces the time until the joints break.  In the future I'll be ordering the Proto-87 point hinges, same or similar as you see in Bobs photos.  The older handlaid turnouts at the club that used joiners in that role have generally needed less repair than the ones built with Fast Tracks and solid closure rails. 

I 110% agree with Bob about installing PCB headblock ties instead of the Fast Tracks wood.  In addition to what's already been said, Fast Tracks' adaption of their HO product to N scale doesn't recognize the benefits of extra strength in this area for an N scale turnout.  So I not only do the headblock ties with PCB, I usually add another PCB tie on each side of them so that I have 5 or 6 PCB ties total around the throwbar area.  I do use Fast Tracks, but what I do is stop using the Fast Tracks fixture before soldering the points to the throwbar, and switch to paper template method.  I carefully lay a strip of double stick tape to a paper template, lay out the additional PCB and throwbar area ties on it, place the partially done turnout over that, solder the additional ties from the outside of the rail in the points area, and then proceed with soldering the throwbar.

I also 110% agree with having the point rails extend over the facing point headblock tie.  Helps keep everything aligned and flat which helps keep the points from sagging down and solder from going under the stock rails.

Finally, for what it's worth, at our club we also use a wider (HO scale PCB tie as) throwbar.  No, it's not realistic, but it gives more soldering area, making a stronger connection from point to throwbar, and let's us use a slightly stronger tortoise wire, and drill a bigger hole for the wire without weakening the throwbar.  This definitely has it's downside appearance wise, just an idea if this is frustrating you more than that appearance level is worth.