Locomotives with Molded-In Details or Pre-Drilled to Add Details?

[peteski]

Oh, and as for the Facebook votes, I stand behind my previous statement that not all model railroaders are on Facebook.  I am, but I don't generally visit manufacturers' sites there, so I have certainly not added any input there.  Others, like @peteski (sorry to drag you into this), are not even on Facebook.

I don't mind at all. 

Do you know of anywhere else they are conducting such a poll?...The numbers seem to be in favor of separately applied details here and facebook, so that's what we have to go by!.

You have made a passionate argument and we simply disagree. I see your point and to take it to the logical extreme doing 3 versions would satisfy the most modelers. 

Coosvalley and  Missaberoad: Where you guys are getting this info?  The poll was not about whether the rivet-counter (full detail) *OR* the operator (no free-standing grabs and other fine details) versions will be made.  The poll was also not about whether three versions should be made (as Missaberoad seems to imply): With free-standing grabs, with no grabs at all, and with molded-on grabs.

The poll was specifically and only about the operator version, and the question asked was whether to make the operator version with molded-on grabs, or no molded-on grabs but dimples, and the 3rd choice was no-molded-on grabs but pre-drilled holes.  Look at the poll selections!  The rivet-counter version will be made regardless of the poll outcome.

[cjm413]

CF7 now that is an engine I could use - Mass Central for me please.

I think there were several frame variations over just open and boxed. Didn't they just try to box the ends over the trucks at first, then box the whole thing?

Thinking about this engine, it would be a perfect candidate for Scale Trains. The DB hatch could be separate to cover 2 and 4 stack configurations. Two cabs would cover the majority of prototypes, though 4 would be better and cover all window configurations. Finally, ST could use just a single walkway, but add etched plates to simulate the boxed frame.

Didn't the guys at Scale Trains work on the Athearn CF7?

Athearn CF7 was ex-Rail Power Products

[coosvalley]

I don't mind at all. 

Coosvalley and  Missaberoad: Where you guys are getting this info?  The poll was not about whether the rivet-counter (full detail) *OR* the operator (no free-standing grabs and other fine details) versions will be made.  The poll was also not about whether three versions should be made (as Missaberoad seems to imply): With free-standing grabs, with no grabs at all, and with molded-on grabs.

The poll was specifically and only about the operator version, and the question asked was whether to make the operator version with molded-on grabs, or no molded-on grabs but dimples, and the 3rd choice was no-molded-on grabs but pre-drilled holes.  Look at the poll selections!  The rivet-counter version will be made regardless of the poll outcome.

I know that!(pages ago-go look, I did not have it right in the beginning)..and I think you need to read again,that is not what Missaberoad was saying.He was saying 3 versions would please the most people.

Personally, unless they look GREAT, I would prefer to detail my own, it's more fun! And no DCC for me, although he did say it would be an option for either line...

Peteski, funny thing re: facebook, when we discussed the B&M SW1 earlier, I was going to mention a pic I found on there that makes me think silver was not exactly wrong, but then I remembered you don't facebook!(and I wont steal the pic)...I have found it to be a wealth of cool train related stuff not available elsewhere..... I'm not trying to talk you into it, just thought it was worth a mention..

[Missaberoad]

Pete my comment was a tongue in cheek responce to this comment... No where did I say that there will be 3 versions made, and all of my comments are in regard to the "operator" version.

I believe that freestanding details on the Rivet Counter Series and molded-on details on the Operator's Series would satisfy the most customers.

At the end of it all the important thing is we have a new manufaturer serious about N scale... Im excited to see what they do no matter what!

[ednadolski]

I have not bough any FVM models because they are naked.

Were there no other relevant factors for you, i.e., price, roadname, paint/color, dim ditch lights...? (Those are some of the critiques I have heard about the FVMs.)

I don't have the time, motor skills or patience to install those little parts.

That's true for many modelers.  We all have to find our own balance for our limited resources. 

May I ask: if those FVMs had the parts pre-installed, would that have made the difference for you?  Perhaps then the ScaleTrains Rivet Counter line is for you.

Ed

[ednadolski]

it would be nice if the option for the Operator's Series did not require installing parts to avoid being stuck with a naked model. ... I once owned a FVM GP60M and never got around to installing the details before I sold it.  Why?  Because I was afraid of screwing it up.  However, it was painfully obvious to me that those parts were missing when I ran that locomotive.  At this point in my experience with the hobby, I'm okay with Atlas-quality molded-on parts, because we don't all have the time or the skill to do what you do with your beautiful models.  If we want more detail, we would have the option of buying the Rivet Counter Series.  Otherwise, molded-on detail would suit many folks just fine.

Thanks Dave for the kind words.  I must confess tho that looking at pics like these, a word like "naked" just because the grabirons are not pre-installed does strike me as a rather harsh. There does seem to be a great deal to like about these models OOTB.

It is a big hobby, and as with so many things, it is subjective. My own take is sort of a less-is-more approach:  while the absence of a given detail may be less than ideal, I still regard it as an improvement over that same detail being present in an oversized/unprototypical form (especially when hard to remove, as with molded-on parts. )

I do think this is one reason why we are seeing more & more HO models being made with better & better scale parts.  Eventually it will go the same with N scale, and we will all look back and wonder why we ever put up with anything less.

Cheers,
Ed

[djconway]

As of 10:45PM there are 83 votes - that is hardly representative of all N-Scale.  I think I personally know 50-75 people modeling in N outside of online forums. 

Where is the largest sector of N, the detail it down to every last nick and dent on the real thing, or the put it on the tracks and operate it.  A manafacturer needs to spend his money on what is going to make money.  If they get a lot of complaints or returns because "modelers" have to add details they will note make money.  I saw a lot of Kato Mikes sit on the shelf and come back because the hand rails had to be added. Made a few bucks putting them on for some folks.

[wazzou]

Seems appropriate here also...  

Sorry for plagiarizing Dave.

[coosvalley]

I'll probably regret this..

So, after thinking about why I want no grabs vs. molded on, I have another reason not yet discussed. Paint OVER molded on grabs gets distorted in an unrealistic manner.. I KNOW THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN WITH ALL PAINT SCHEMES!..But, for schemes that have a logo or stripes on the ends, over the molded on grabs, the logo or paint has to go OVER the grabs, not under.. No other detail on a model loco distorts the paint job in this manner.Real paint jobs have to go around doors and noses just like model paint jobs...Please see photo for an example..A decal looks even worse over molded on grabs .It isn't just MEC models either, this is just what I have available to photograph.But notice the writing on the logo to see what I'm talking about. Also the stripe, to a lesser extent..it should go UNDER the grab, not over...



I feel I should say that I thought molded on grabs would be the easy winner, like many of you.   We all have different things we wish to do with our hobby time, some of you will never add grabs to a model,predrilled or not, and that's okay....I,too, think "most" n scalers wouldn't want to "have " to do something to their expensive new model, but that is not what the polls are showing...If any of you know of a better way to ask more, or all folks, let us know, or tell ST where to get their input!

[EspeeGoldenState]

Some of you may forget the target area of the Operator series too, from what I gather its geared towards getting kids back in to the hobby for cheap, and for those that just want to watch their trains go in a circle.

http://scaletrains.com/pages/our-brands

2. The Rivet Counter™ line strives to create the most accurately detailed models imaginable. The real-world counterpart is meticulously researched to ensure prototype fidelity. Each model features numerous factory applied parts including roadname and road number specific details whenever possible.

3. Operator™ trains are built for modelers who enjoy running high-quality, realistic trains at an affordable price. Designed from builder’s drawings and photographs, Operator models have fewer factory-applied parts and simplified printing. For added versatility, super-detail parts are available separately.

The debate about add-on details could go on forever with no clear winner. This is no different than buying a muscle car that was stock and then supping it up as money and experience and age went along. Same for these locomotives. Give those who want to customize them perhaps later and easier time when they go to do it with pre-drilled holes and such and it wont seem as intimidating as having to redecal/paint an area or line up a alignment tool for grab irons.

Sure I myself would probably lean towards the Rivet Counter versions, but for my son I would lean towards the Operator series especially if they option to upgrade per say to a Rivet Counter was there for when he became older and had more patience to superdetail.

Chris

[sundowner]

Were there no other relevant factors for you, i.e., price, roadname, paint/color, dim ditch lights...? (Those are some of the critiques I have heard about the FVMs.)


That's true for many modelers.  We all have to find our own balance for our limited resources. 

May I ask: if those FVMs had the parts pre-installed, would that have made the difference for you?  Perhaps then the ScaleTrains Rivet Counter line is for you.

Ed

On the CSX ES44AC, the fact that the model was not close to the prototype was a big one, the handrails and dynamic brake being a big visual no, no, but to be fair Kato did the same thing. Using the BNSF low rear headlight on the CSX ES44DC and FEC ES44AC4 was another. Look at the NS heritage GEVOS, why tool up new cab and not do the long hood and handrails. There are a few others.

No it would not made a difference if the part were install since the unit is already compromise.

[EspeeGoldenState]

On the CSX ES44AC, the fact that the model was not close to the prototype was a big one, the handrails and dynamic brake being a big visual no, no, but to be fair Kato did the same thing. Using the BNSF low rear headlight on the CSX ES44DC and FEC ES44AC4 was another. Look at the NS heritage GEVOS, why tool up new cab and not do the long hood and handrails. There are a few others.

No it would not made a difference if the part were install since the unit is already compromise.

Not sure what the handrail issue is as I don't have any CSX or FEC, but Matt seemed to do a couple molds to try to cover the units on cabs and hoods.

Same for the IAIS units. I still own 513, 509 and still waiting on 516 to arrive. Cab doors on the wrong side as well as dynamic brakes. Rear low headlight instead of horizontal high. I believe all 3 IAIS orders are based off the CSX specs, so I understand what you mean there.

For the UP units the dynamic brakes are at issue, but at least they got the color separation on the radiator wings correct, where gray, red, and yellow are all on the sides whereas Kato has just gray with red stripe at the bottom and completely incorrect.

Even with the incorrectness on the FVM units, I still looking for one more of the UP 4-window GEVOs to turn into 2010, which will be close enough.

Coming from HO where we have virtually everything into N scale, I've had to realize that there is shortcomings with the size and model variations. Least one manufacturer has asked for feedback where most (if not practically all) are like take it or leave it, we don't care.

We could create an endless list with complaining about whats wrong with FVM units, but there is also lots of great things about them compared to what others do. I still own about a dozen of them, and waiting on a couple more. If/when Matt decides to do UP and Cat/EMDX demo units in SD70ACe versions, I may pick a few of those up as well. I haven't had the bench space to add all the details to the GEVOs but those are a big reason I went the FVM route on the couple NS heritage 70s that I do own.

Chris

[sundowner]

Not sure what the handrail issue is as I don't have any CSX or FEC, but Matt seemed to do a couple molds to try to cover the units on cabs and hoods.

Chris

The CSX and NS unit used the wide handrails. like seen on the Atlas CW40-8.

[EspeeGoldenState]

The CSX and NS unit used the wide handrails. like seen on the Atlas CW40-8.

Ah, I wouldn't have known that. I seen pics and assumed that might have been the issue but wasn't 100%

Chris

[ednadolski]

Paint OVER molded on grabs gets distorted in an unrealistic manner.. for schemes that have a logo or stripes on the ends, over the molded on grabs, the logo or paint has to go OVER the grabs, not under.. No other detail on a model loco distorts the paint job in this manner.Real paint jobs have to go around doors and noses just like model paint jobs... ..A decal looks even worse over molded on grabs

Very true, this is another point that makes it hard to upgrade from molded-on parts.  Even if you could perfectly match the paint, you then also have to apply matching decals (assuming you can find the right ones, which is not always easy or possible).

Sure I myself would probably lean towards the Rivet Counter versions, but for my son I would lean towards the Operator series especially if they option to upgrade per say to a Rivet Counter was there for when he became older and had more patience to superdetail.

This is something I had not thought of, but is also quite appropriate.  User applied parts don't have to be installed right away but can be done later when desired.  Removing molded parts is a substantial barrier to those who might want to try their hand at detailing.

No it would not made a difference if the part were install since the unit is already compromise.

Thanks for clarifying that.   Sometimes compromises are inevitable, sometimes it is a matter of finding a way to fix it yourself, or else going without.

Ed