requesting help troubleshooting 2 GS-4s

[espeefan]

Ones a Kato, ones a Con-Cor.  Both have decoders.  The Con-Cor runs, but sometimes needs help starting, and a push down on the tender usually gets it running again.  Or it will (rarely)stall, and the same thing needs to be done.  I've disassembled it and cleaned all the contact point and the wheels and it still does it. The method of picking up from the wheels doesn't inspire confidence. Thought about using Kato trucks but they are sold out.
 It looks like its designed to draw power from the drivers as well-do you think pinning a phosphor bronze rub strip to the chassis might help?  Any other ideas?  I also looks like the drawbar is lifting the front of the trailing truck sometimes.  Can't really see why.

The Kato, I can read the decoder, but it just sits there and stares at me.  It did run last Friday at an ops session at a friends house. I've taken apart the tender and made sure those dumb little L shaped pieces are making contact. What am I missing here?

[peteski]

The Kato, I can read the decoder, but it just sits there and stares at me.  It did run last Friday at an ops session at a friends house. I've taken apart the tender and made sure those dumb little L shaped pieces are making contact. What am I missing here?

Which brand/model decoder?

I assume that the decoder only controls the motor (no lights).  When you read the CV values (on programming track), can you hear the motor "chirping" or "twitching" when the decoder is communicating with the command station?  If it only controls the motor then the motor is the only load the decoder can place on the track when it acknowledges the control station's commands. If there is load hooked up to the decoder then it wouldn't be able to communicate or send acknowledgement pulses to the command station, and it would be unable to read CVs.

I do agree that the way Kato designed those contact strips doesn't seem very robust or reliable.

[espeefan]

 its the Kato decoder, an EM13. The lights are not controlled and the motor is quiet-I know sometimes an engine will jerk or twitch as you read codes and adjust CVs but this one doesn't. 
I'm going to pull the decoder and apply DC power to the contacts to see if the motor turns as soon as I get off work.
Thanks for the reply peteski

[espeefan]

The weight must have a tendency to unsnap at the front.  I removed the decoder, the motor ran under DC applying current to the upper drawbar, put the connector pieces in, applied current, it worked put in the decoder, worked, snapped on the weight. it ran-then stopped.  noticed one of the tender's axles were loose and the weight had popped up in the front.  pushed the weight down and it ran. have it secured with a bit of kapton tape for the moment.
Anyone have an idea about the Con-cor?

[Ike the BN Freak]

With the decoder in, you say it won't run, are you testing with DC or DCC?

I gave mine a "test" with a 9v battery, and wouldn't move with the decoder in. Not sure if the EM13 is dual mode or not.

[espeefan]

The Kato? On my interim layout, it wasn't responding at all to my NCE DCC Powercab. a week or so after running fine on a Digitrax system.  Sorry if I confused you, I just tested with an old DC power pack to see it there was continuity from the drawbar to the motor.  As I said above, looks like I have the problem taken care of anyway. I do thank you for the interest.   

[mmagliaro]

On the Con-Cor...

Is this the Con-Cor 4-8-4 from around 2002?   Would you have any pics of the inside of the tender?

[Paradise275]

Make sure the Kato GS4 is not the initial run that had the shorting problem when a decoder was installed.

Rick

[espeefan]

Thanks Rick, I put the shields in myself several year ago-and I have solved the Kato's problem.  That wasn't it, but thanks

[espeefan]

I don't know the vintage, it was a cheap train show purchase-but I can indeed take a picture,  I'll say there's  a circuit board that is (Was) hardwired to a rear light (I removed it) and also to the motor, with a standard plug for the decoder.

[mmagliaro]

Okay, so that's the Kato/ConCor style tender that has the pickup "plates" on the insides of the wheels, that ride in flanged grooves
behind the wheels.

Those are dodgey.  Sometimes they are excellent, and sometimes they suffer from the problem you are describing.

Make sure you:

- clean the wheels (obviously)
- clean the grooves on the wheel backs where the plates ride
- clean the plates themselves, especially the edges and sides that ride behind the wheels
- clean the tips of the plates that touch the strips in the tender floor
- clean the undersides of the strips in the tender floor.

And if you do it with mineral spirits, my experience is that it works a little better than just cleaning with alcohol.
And even then, after you do all that, sometimes it will work great for a day, or a week, and then the problem will come back.
It has something to do (my theory) with the metal that the plates and wheels are made of.  I don't think Concor uses the same
metals that Kato used back when Kato was making these.

Did you clean everything on the list above?

[JMaurer1]

Hard wire the power pickups or sell to me...

[espeefan]

I had cleaned it, but tried with the mineral spirits,  Noticed the drawbar wires wanted to go outside the pickup plates.  got them inside when reassembling and it seems to be running right now.  Thanks for your interest, all who replied.