Best Of MTL Rollingstock Prototype - 40' Wood Reefer (47000 & 49000)

[SandyEggoJake]

I have to believe it wouldn't take too much work to track down a good prototype candidate

You'd think so, but I've exhausted several published PFE texts by noted experts and can not find a better candidate than that Bob has suggested... but at the same time have yet to locate any photos or drawing of such a car.  Now I am in contact with one of the authors as well as the CSRM, but so far both have been dry wells on this specific series.... but the search continues.

[bbussey]

Since you've suggested that MTL always does at least one or some prototypical cars for a certain body style, I looked up the road numbers produced but can't find any information about those series on line.  The next step would be to follow up with the paint scheme, specifically what class of car is written on the car?  I don't believe I own any of the wood PFE cars so maybe someone can get out the magnifier and read what it says. 

I have one MTL-47060 left on the to-be-auctioned pile.  Road number 18900 series, 9/20 service date, no PFE class printed on the car.

[robert3985]

I'm not sure what consensus you're talking about as it's really just me and one other person who doesn't disagree with me.   

I'm still open to the idea that this cold be a PFE car.  Most of what I've done is in response to you and Bob trying to dismiss this other option and asking for photographic proof and what-not.  I think I've clearly shown that this FGE car is very, very close and spot on in regards to some specific and unique details.  And even it's not the prototype, it's not like I'm out on a limb suggesting such in the absence of other tangible evidence.

If you and Bob say it's a PFE car, I'm cool with that, in fact, I'm ready to help track it down.  PFE is well followed and very well documented.  I have to believe it wouldn't take too much work to track down a good prototype candidate.  Unfortunately I don't own any of the PFE books so hopefully other people who do have these books can help fill in any info they can.

Since you've suggested that MTL always does at least one or some prototypical cars for a certain body style, I looked up the road numbers produced but can't find any information about those series on line.  The next step would be to follow up with the paint scheme, specifically what class of car is written on the car?  I don't believe I own any of the wood PFE cars so maybe someone can get out the magnifier and read what it says. 


Jason

Actually, the evidence I have gathered indicates that the Kadee/MTL car is only an accurate PFE car ABOVE THE SILL.  All of my research clearly indicates that the sill and underbody of the Kadee/MTL cars do not resemble any PFE car.

The drawings and photos Jason provided in his drawing/model comparo look pretty damn close to the Kadee/MTL car, the most glaring discrepancy being the short door. 

I have much more expertise (and references) about PFE cars, but early PFE cars had a shorter door also, which got changed when PFE established a new door height standard and the cars were rebuilt and upgraded.  I assume that FGE most likely did similar modifications when upgrading to new equipment (non-vertical brakewheels, etc.) and to standardize their cars...but, I don't KNOW for sure.

As to the repeated claim that the PFE steel, wood-sheathed roofs didn't exist because no drawings or photos can be found, the big PFE book states PFE's policy several times in the text about keeping steel, wood-sheathed roofs that were in good condition rather than replacing them when upgrading cars...and although the roofs look identical to non-steel wooden roofs, they were still considered steel roofs.  If I were home I would quote the authors and IMO their statements offer plenty of credence, even if they elected to not publish drawings or photos of these cars.

However, if Jason (or anybody else) can find and post original/official drawings of the FGE car he's found, this looks very close to the Kadee/MTL car from an eyeball point of view.

As an aside, I have not demanded drawings and/or photos from anyone here, but, I have provided some to provide visual evidence in this thread's attempt to determine the actual prototype of this car.  Personally, I don't care one way or the other what prototype Kadee/MTL used for this model, since it's close enough for me to paint mine up in PFE livery...but, it's clear that it ain't a "perfect" model of any PFE car, and so far...likewise not a perfect model of any other car anybody has provided evidence for, although Jason's evidence looks like he's homing in on it!

Great fun in any case...

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[wcfn100]

The drawings and photos Jason provided in his drawing/model comparo look pretty damn close to the Kadee/MTL car, the most glaring discrepancy being the short door. 

Before this becomes a thing, lets make it clear, the door on the drawing is not drawn to scale in the vertical dimension for some reason.  But if you go by the measurements on the drawing, it's a normal height door that compares fine with the MTL car.

Jason

[Sokramiketes]

Before this becomes a thing, lets make it clear, the door on the drawing is not drawn to scale in the vertical dimension for some reason.  But if you go by the measurements on the drawing, it's a normal height door that compares fine with the MTL car.

Jason

There's an awful lot of very specific detail items that match so well, that it's hard to imagine the tool maker was using anything other than those drawings!

[robert3985]

Before this becomes a thing, lets make it clear, the door on the drawing is not drawn to scale in the vertical dimension for some reason.  But if you go by the measurements on the drawing, it's a normal height door that compares fine with the MTL car.

Jason

I don't know what you mean by "Before this becomes a thing...", since you'll find, if you read the following paragraph on my same post, that I am supporting your claim, and offering evidence that cars in the PFE fleet underwent changes..including modernizing...one feature of which was receiving a taller "standard" door...and possibly FGE did similar changes...but I have done zero research on FGE reefers, so this is only an assumption following a logical thought train.

Sorry to be redundant here, but evidently, the message isn't getting through....

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[wcfn100]

I don't know what you mean by "Before this becomes a thing...", since you'll find, if you read the following paragraph on my same post, that I am supporting your claim, and offering evidence that cars in the PFE fleet underwent changes..including modernizing...one feature of which was receiving a taller "standard" door...and possibly FGE did similar changes...

Your message is clear, and I appreciate you drawing a parallel with your PFE research in regards to changing door sizes, it's just that it's not needed and doing so may cast a shadow where one doesn't need to exist.

The door on the FGE drawing matches fine as-is with the MTL model, it's just not drawn to scale.


I was hoping to have an avenue to start researching the PFE cars, but without the car class, I can't do much.  I thought that it was a given that the class would be on the PFE cars, but that shows what I know.

Do you have any resources that say what class these 18xxx and 19xxx series cars are supposed to be?  Following up on Bryans comments, this seems to be the best first step to figure out.

Jason

[bbussey]

The class is R-30-13.  PFE had multiple number series in this class.  MTL has released 28 PFE wood reefers in four schemes, and all except the single car with the script logo scheme are in this class.

MTL 47060 — PFE 18920-19919
MTL 49180 — PFE 33435-36473
MTL 49250 — PFE 31250-32434

Info is in the hardcover book "Pacific Fruit Express" by Robert Church and Bruce Jones.  There are pics of sister classes R-30-9 and -11, but no -13.  It appears to have been the largest class of wood reefers, so photos must exist somewhere.

Also — there are photos of wood cars from the era that MTL 47060 represents which do not have the class stenciled on the side, so the MTL scheme may not be inaccurate by omitting the class on the model.

[wcfn100]

Thanks Bryan, I'll see if I can do anything with that.  My take on the paint scheme is maybe it's just a very early scheme.  It seems that post 1920 schemes tend to have class information.  But that just from a few builder's photos.

Jason

[bbussey]

This may help as well.  The full number series for R-30-13 is:  18920-28249, 28750-29649, 31250-32434, 33435-36473.  These are original reporting marks, before any renumbering or rebuilding.  R-30-12 and R-30-14 may be similar, as all three classes were built simultaneously.  The R-30-11 looks like a match at first glance from the side, but I didn't look at it in depth.  The fascia at the top of the ends in any of the PFE end photos is not as narrow as more defined than on the model.

[wcfn100]

Well from what's on-line, the R-30-13 was a class created on the 20's. These car featured a metal roof with hatch platforms and grab irons instead of ladders.  So unless there was a earlier class of the same name, it doesn't look like the car we're looking for.

Here's a picture.



Jason

[bbussey]

I found a pic in the book as well.  The class was built in the 1920s and started out with wood roofs.  They did, however, always have hatch platforms.

The last two pics are from class R-40-4, the first class to have full ladders to the roof instead of grab irons.  But they were built with steel roofs, as was every wood PFE class from that point forward.  It would appear at all post-1920 PFE wood cars had hatch platforms.

So there doesn't appear to be a PFE prototype that the model is an accurate representation of.

[SandyEggoJake]

Yes I think we've plowed both the as built R-30-13 and R-40-4 previously. 

Bob Gilmore's suggestion is specifically that the superstructure of the model matches a variant of the reclassed R-40-2 rebuilt from R30's.  While he's provided some details and I do find some mentions of such in Thompson's tome, Bob also seems to hint as other (unstated) resources he has access which substantiate his claim of the existence of some cars with the newer ladders, but retaining the old wood sheathed roof (either original wood or later  metal underlay) w/o the ice platforms.   Perhaps if he could provide a reference for such, we might have another avenue to explore.  That is in addition the the docs previously identified in the CSRM holdings, which I've yet to review.

[wazzou]

Check out this awesome photo posted today in the STMFC Yahoo Group.

https://vintageportland.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/1935-sep-25_se-2nd-ave-and-alder-st_a2009-009-2795.jpg

[Sokramiketes]

So there doesn't appear to be a PFE prototype that the model is an accurate representation of.

Man, why do all MTL roads lead to this...