KATO GS-4 , new driver sets

[carlso]

I have been following the thread regarding GS-4 problems, with great interest.

I have a set of the new drivers and would like to tackle the install myself. However, I am not sure how to do it . Are there any tutorials that you may know about?

Carl

[victor miranda]

check your old axles for cracks.
the first driver and last driver types are the same
If I had one of those old and uncracked, I'd set it in the #4 slot
and use the new drivers in the other three slots.

( then I'd ask Victor how much he charges to put collars on the rest...)

I seriously doubt you will have any problems if you swap them out completely.
please let us know either way.

[mmagliaro]

What he said.

My only other advice, since I just did 4 of these:

This got long... sorry.  Just started typing and before you know it... 

1.  You need good technique for pulling and reinserting the crankpins.  That is the trickiest part of
the job, I think.   

To do this:

a) lay engine on its back
b) apply power to get the crankpins all at the bottom on one side
c) lay engine on it side with the bottomed crankpins facing up
d) slip Xactro knife blade under rod and pin head, gently pry up to start raising the pin out of the driver
e) place finger over crankpin, pry a little more (so the pin can't go flying if you pry to far)
f) when it is 1/2 to 3/4 of the way out, slip very fine pointed tweezers in around the pin,
and gently push so that the head of the crankpin rides up the tweezers as they are eased along
KEEP FINGER OVER CRANKPIN while you do this

when it comes out, place in a cup, repeat.

2. Lay all the rods as you free them in the order they need to go back on that side.  mark them,
label them , or take a photo so you will remember how they go back on!

3. Once all rods are off, lay engine on its back, remove the 3 cover plate screws.
The one under the pilot truck can be reached with a little effort by swiveling the truck out of the way,
but be careful not to snap it free from it's pilot arm and send the spring flying

4. Remove cover plate

5. Pluck out the 4 old drivers
Note: #1 will be harder to pull out and push in than the others.  Unlike the others,
it plants firmly into the frame and locks in the slots with no wiggle.  You may have to work it
a bit to get the old one out.

------------------
As Victor suggests, if your #1 or #4 are not cracked, I would use the non-cracked one
in the #4 position, and only replace the other 3.  This is because I have been seeing spotty behavior
with the new-style driver bearings being able to stay in the frame slots without popping out
and going cock-eyed against the axle while running.

6. Look at the crankpin holes.  #1 and #4 are the same.  Put those in.  #2 and #3: one has the gear
and can only go in one slot.  And that leaves the remainining one.

Put the geared driver in so the crankhole will be at the dead bottom, when the engine
is turned upright.  This will make it easier to get the 1st 4 crankpins back in

7. Make SURE you get the "ears" or tabs on each bearing into the little slots in the frame
on both sides of each axle.  This is particularly tricky on #4 because of the sprung fingers under it.
But if you use an older axle tube driver, it is easier.

8. Put the cover plate back on, being careful that all 8 bearings stay in their slots as
you get it in place.  It is easy to bump a wheel and knock a bearing out of the slots.
This is especially true on #4 with the spring fingers under it.  You may want to hold that driver down
into the very bottom of its slot with your thumb/index finger of one hand while you put the cover plate
back on with the other, and don't let go until you get the plate all the way down so it can't pop out,
or move its bearings out of place.

9 Replace the screws.

10. Now... to replace the rods and crankpins. 

Driver #1, rotate hole to bottom, engine on its side.  Lay rod over hole.
Gently get the pin in some tweezers, locate pin through rod and into hole.
Try to get a finger tip or finger nail onto the tip of the pin before you let go.
Push a little, try to get the pin just started.
Now, with slightly wider-jawed tweezers, one jaw behind the wheel, other one on top of the pin, squeeze.
KEEP FINGER or hand over the pin while you do this to help stop it if it goes flying.

Driver #4, same process as #1
Driver #2, get rod from #1 swung up onto  #2, place SECOND rod on top, get pin through both rods
and into hole.   This takes patience and it is very important to have the engine lying dead horizontal
in a foam cradle so that the rods don't keep trying to slide around while you work.

Now swing rod from 2 up onto 3, swing the one from 4 over onto 3.  This is the hardest one because
the two siderods plus the main rod from the valve slider, all have to stack up over the hole.
Once you get all 3 (use a toothpick through them all, into the hole to get them lined up),
put the crank in.   The crank/eccentric rod end is square, so it can only go in one of 4 possible
ways.  Starting from the left end, it has 2 joints.  It should go down, turn right, over, turn downward,
and then the crank goes through the 3 rods stacked up over the driver.

-----------
Turn engine on its back.  Apply clip leads to just get the drivers rotated so that the
crank holes on the OTHER side (without rods) are all at dead bottom.   Be careful.  It's easy to
jam the rods when only one side is connected.  Just touch for an instant, then re-line-up all the wheels,
touch again, until you get the holes bottomed out.

Now lay on its side and put the rods and pins into the other side.

///////////////////////////////////////

Except for the issue with the bearings that won't stay in their slots, requiring me to make a special piece
to keep them in position, this method served me well.  I did 4 of them and I'm 0 for 32 on lost
crankpins (meaning there are 32 of them and I didn't lose any).

Good luck!

[victor miranda]

Hi Max,
a great post.

I keep forgetting just how daunting it is to pull crank pins and siderods

.... have I gotten so jaded or sanguine that I think everyone can do it and
I don't need to write such posts...

that post itself need to be in the best of railwire. 

victor

[peteski]

that post itself need to be in the best of railwire. 

+1

[mmagliaro]

Thanks, Victor!

Truth be told, when I started typing it, I figured it would be 10 lines long.  It was only after I started,
that all of a sudden I realized that this involves pulling crankpins, relocating the drivers, and rods,
and so on.   And whoa!   It just rambled on and on.

And this...
(warning, Kato black eye coming)...
is one of the reasons I am upset with Kato for how they handled
this.  These drivers were a clear, widespread manufacturing defect.  And instead of taking any and all
back to repair for free, they instead are selling replacement drivers to people, and leaving them
on their own to get them put in.  They have turned a defect into a $20 parts order.
Two of the four I did this time were virtually brand new from the box, and had 3 of 4 axles cracked.
I have also heard similar reports from other owners (new, out of the box, take off cover plate,
axles are already cracked).  So they cannot simply blame this on "rough handling."

And after I typed out that set of instructions, I realized how intimidating it is for most people to
replace those drivers.  For the vast majority of customers, it is impossible without being lucky enough
to find a friend who can do it (rare), or paying, yet again, to have the work done.

Thus endeth the black eye.

Hi Max,
a great post.

I keep forgetting just how daunting it is to pull crank pins and siderods

.... have I gotten so jaded or sanguine that I think everyone can do it and
I don't need to write such posts...

that post itself need to be in the best of railwire. 

victor

[victor miranda]

hi Max,

allow me a mild defense of Kato...

they did EVERY thing they could think up to reduce friction and get a smooth runner.

the axle and bearings are made with that in mind.
the proportions of axle size (the metal part) to the outer plastic sleeve
are close to 3 to 1 and that should  be strong enough to hold up in service.

If we measure Kato against anyone else, they did great.
if we measure Kato against Kato.... weeell, not so great.

end of defense.

where I agree with you is that even those two good reasons for buildng it as done
are not going to stand the test of time.
40 years is not the end of the life time of an n-scale loco
IF you look at the much beloved Hudson.

victor

[mmagliaro]

Victor,

I think with regards to what Kato tried to do, and how they designed the engine, we
are in complete agreement.  I think the GS4 driver design is great.   Those axle
spin and slide like glass in those bearings.  That sprung rear driver is a superb idea.

My only quibble is how they handled the issue after the defect appeared. 

In my view, Kato should simply have said, "We are sorry for this defect.  Please send your
GS4 to us and we will repair or replace the axles, free of charge.  Thank you for your continued trust in our
company."   I could even have allowed them expecting the customer to pay for
the mailing costs to get the engine to Kato.

I would then have applauded them for working on bold new designs, and applauded them for accepting
responsibility for their mistakes and making it right with their customers.

Instead, I can only applaud their design.

[peteski]

Max, in defense of Kato, it you contact them with a defective GS-4 (with defective drivers) there is a very good chance that they will fix it for you.  Probably for shipping cost only.  If there are indication of end-user damage they might charge for parts. I have not done that myself, but any time I needed something serviced by Kato, their service department was very accommodating.  Just be nice and civil and they will be very nice to you too.

Just saying...

I'm not sure if the people who sent you those models for repair attempted to deal with Kato first or not, but either way, you should be happy as you are making profit from Kato's inferior design. 

[victor miranda]

Hi Max,
I am thinking that ... remedy... would be  a lot for any company to absorb.

I like it and I am certain that Kato wold raise the prices of the next loco to cover that.

right now I am wondering what Kato will do if it becomes obvious that
the "FIX" parts do not fix the issue...

I have only seen two locos with the cracked axle personally and I know up1950s had one
and you have repaired 4....

so while I know this is going to be an ever growing problem...
what is the range?
90 percent never have the problem?
or
90 percent have the problem?

we may have a lifetime of pocket change from repairs.

victor