EsPee steam experts needed

[Loren Perry]

In the 1940s and 1950s, did Southern Pacific paint the fronts of their steam locomotive smokeboxes aluminum, flat white, or a combination of the two? I have photos in all-color books showing all of the above. Anyone out there able to elaborate on this?

[TiVoPrince]

An
old SP hand once told me that the aluminium paint turned crusty white once overheated.  I don't have first hand knowledge but it sounded plausable to me then and now...

[Mike Madonna]

Hey Loren,

From what I have read/learned; to improve visibility when meeting another train, silver smokebox fronts became system standard with adoption of a C.S. (Common Standard) spec in mid-June, 1946. This was about the same time they dropped the "lines" from Southern Pacific Lines on their equipment. I agree with you, when looking at some color photos, they do tend to look "white".

[Loren Perry]

An
old SP hand once told me that the aluminium paint turned crusty white once overheated.  I don't have first hand knowledge but it sounded plausable to me then and now...

That's entirely possible. The photos I have show the "white" fronts to be perfectly even all over, like they were freshly painted, and with absolutely no metallic sheen as would be seen with aluminum. Perfectly dead-flat white. Wouldn't heat-faded aluminum be a little more blotchy or uneven?

Also, there's a photo showing the front of one engine where the outer flat face of the front appears to be a perfectly applied flat white while the central dome-shaped smokebox door is clearly a freshly applied aluminum, sort of like having a white donut with an aluminum donut hole in the middle. The line of demarcation between the two colors is very obvious. These photos are of superb quality with excellent lighting and razor-sharp focus. Most are early 1950's era.

And FWIW, the same book also has a great 3/4 rear view of a 4-8-8-2 cab forward sporting a fresh and professionally applied SOUTHERN PACFIC (misspelled) on the tender flank!
As they say, maybe there really is a prototype for everything if you look long enough.

But I'd like to see if I should repaint some of my steamers' front ends, hence my question.

[JMaurer1]

As Mike already stated, the silver fronts became a standard for locomotives serviced after the middle of 1946. This doesn't mean that ALL locomotives got silver smokebox fronts in 1946, but that as locomotives were seviced they would get the silver front (actually the color was 'aluminum bronze'). This was done to make the locomotives more visible and easier to be seen by cars crossing the tracks (no automatic gates back then). Prior to 1946, SP coated the unlagged portions of the firebox, smoke box, and boiler front with a mixture of graphite powder and linnseed oil (due to the temperatures, paint would just burn off). Sometimes they would paint the smokebox door silver but I couldn't find anything stating that this was a 'rule' (Common Standard). This could explain why some pictures show what looks like two colors on the smokebox front...light graphite smokebox and a silver smokebox door. In 1946, they went to a darker graphite on the unlagged portions of the fire box and smoke box, thought to be a result of changing from linnseed oil to waste oil. One thing is for sure, they were never painted white. Hope that helps...

[Loren Perry]

Okay, so let's assume they were never painted white. Now my question becomes:

Would it be appropriate to use flat white paint on a 1/160 scale model to simulate what appears on the prototype?

[JoeD]

I might grey it down a bit if you don't want to use a silver or pewter.  That silver tended to oxidize and I've seen a number of preserved units that started white at the top and got darker as it went around the bend so to speak. 

Joe
MTL

[JMaurer1]

I wouldn't just so I wouldn't have to explain it to everyone when I was told that it wasn't prototypical whenever I ran the locomotive, but that's just me. I would paint it silver...maybe mixed with some white to tone the silver down.

[Loren Perry]

Okay, thanks, guys!

It just occurred to me (I'm a little slow on the uptake these days) that a neighbor of mine here on Lopez Island is Charles Givens, a renowned SP steam expert and photographer who took hundreds of photos of SP steamers back in the early 1950's in SoCal. He's coming over in about an hour to help me solve this. On the phone, he steadfastly maintained that SP NEVER used white paint - it was always silver, or aluminum. He has the same books I have and believes I'm being flustered by the limitations of 1950's color photography, even when using Kodachrome. Charles' photos have appeared in numerous books on the Espee and he was instrumental in the creation of the volume Three Barrels of Steam on that road's 4-10-2 three cylinder locos of the 5000 class.

I'll get back as soon as he's left and share what I learned.

[JMaurer1]

Sounds like he's a very smart man...especially since he agrees with me  The problem has always been the film, especially since it usually only took photos in black and white (not black and silver).

You're lucky, I wish he would come over to my house for awhile and bring his pictures. I'd let him tell stories and tales all day long.

[Loren Perry]

Well, Charles Givens just left for home and I think I have solved my SP smokebox color problem. He said Floquil Old Silver straight from the bottle is as close as anything he can come up with to match the actual prototype color. I also tried a mix of two parts Floquil Old Silver to One Part Floquil Reefer White and that seems a good match to what the photos show. While I was waiting for his arrival, I painted the front of a brass 2-8-0 with this mixture as a test for him to evaluate. I liked the way it turned out as it matched some of the photos very well. Charles agreed that it is a decent option and can work alongside straight Old Silver to give the engines a little variety.

As for Aluminum Bronze, Charles believes that was reserved solely for lettering and not for smokebox use.

JMaurer 1 - you are dead-on in all other respects and I thank you for your very useful help. You too, Mike! And all the other great people here - wonderful bunch!

A little more on Charles Givens - he once owned and operated a model train shop in Southern California back in the 1960's- 1970's. He's been a consultant for several makers and importers of fine brass HO and O scale SP steam locomotives for many years, especially for final detailing, painting, and lettering. He had me over a few years ago to inspect a pre-production brass O-scale 4-8-8-2 AC-12.It was unpainted but otherwise complete and quite a sight to behold. He spotted a few minor glitches and made notes to have the makers tweak them for final production and then went on to design the lettering markings for printing. His home has several wall cabinets containing hundreds of brass SP equipment in HO scale with a few select pieces in O-scale. And his research library is to die for - he's willing it to an SP historical society and they'll certainly reap great rewards from it. He's graciously given me a few duplicates from his collection. In return, I help him print one-off decals from time to time using my old ALPS printer.

[JMaurer1]

OK, instead of him coming over to my house, I'm willing to go over to his house. Just give me an address and a time