FVM Soo Line 7-Post Cars?

[Ian MacMillan]

I would go for separate brake rigging and tanks under the cars. I think the detail would be worth it. But then again a basic brake set up could easily be represented in N with wire and styrene.

[3rdrail]

Back when Micro-Trains was still part of Kadee, among the first N scale items produced was forty foot metal underframes complete with body mount couplers, to substitute for the blank steel underframes under Rapido cars and the plastic underframes under Minitrix and Atlas cars. The original bettendorf trucks came with or without couplers. The underframe only came complete with couplers. This item evidently was not popular, as it soon disappeared from shops. A few years later, Ak-Sar-Ben made a mold from the original kadee casting and offered the underframes 3 for $2.00, sans couplers.

So, the idea isn't new, but past history indicates it definitely would not be the proverbial "mouseburgers at a hoot owl picnic".

[Denver Road Doug]

So, the idea isn't new, but past history indicates it definitely would not be the proverbial "mouseburgers at a hoot owl picnic".

No offense, but this is exactly the line of thinking that continues to slow the progression of n-scale.

We need to get past the "history" of...
-"N-scalers won't build kits"
-"N-scalers don't buy decals"
-"N-scalers don't care about road numbers"
-"N-scalers don't buy detail parts"

These "truths" of n-scale are based on the time when N-Trak and NSC made up n-scale almost exclusively.  I personally think there's now a pretty strong third segment that is not interested in either of those organizations. 

Look at the successes of FVM metal wheels and BLMA details.  I think Microscale downsizing and the detail companies that have closed up shop have come at the worst possible time for n-scale.

I'm not suggesting the aftermarket underframes would be a slam-dunk, (I would buy them) but I bet people would be surprised....in a good way.

[GonzoCRFan]

No offense, but this is exactly the line of thinking that continues to slow the progression of n-scale.

We need to get past the "history" of...
-"N-scalers won't build kits"

These "truths" of n-scale are based on the time when N-Trak and NSC made up n-scale almost exclusively. 

Sorry, but we unfortunately do have quite a bit of evidence to suggest that freight car kits in N scale do not sell well. Intermountain gave their covered hopper kits the axe several years ago because people weren't buying them. Red Caboose stopped making their coil cars in kit form about 2 years ago, I was told by my supplier he heard they weren't selling enough of them. And most recently, Rail Yard Models gave up on their G41 coil car kit because sales weren't where the owner needed them to be. Granted, he picked an oddball prototype for a first N scale kit.

Now, is it because N scalers won't build kits? Or is it because the manufacturers would just prefer to use cheap labor to assemble things for us and charge a premium for it? I don't know. But Rail Yard Models has done enough business in HO to justify consistent expansion of their product line, and I always see Funaro & Camerlengo selling quite a few of their HO resin kits at shows.

[Dave Schneider]

Sorry, but we unfortunately do have quite a bit of evidence to suggest that freight car kits in N scale do not sell well. Intermountain gave their covered hopper kits the axe several years ago because people weren't buying them. Red Caboose stopped making their coil cars in kit form about 2 years ago, I was told by my supplier he heard they weren't selling enough of them. And most recently, Rail Yard Models gave up on their G41 coil car kit because sales weren't where the owner needed them to be. Granted, he picked an oddball prototype for a first N scale kit.

I guess that I would have to agree about your point regarding N scale kits. I know that I will purchase (and hopefully build) kits if it is for a car I need and there are no ready to run versions. For example, I have purchased ten or so Puget Summit and JnJ Milwaukee Road rib side  cars over the years. Now that FVM has started their line of these cars, I doubt I will buy more of them. It is also true that many more people will buy the FVM rid side cars than ever purchased the kits. With the Intermountain and Red Caboose kits, it didn't seem like the price difference was great enough to justify buying them compared to the ready to run versions. The only kits I purchased from these lines were from eBay, as they were a good value (since fewer people wanted to buy them).

As for the topic of this thread, I would buy an underframe retrofit kit with proper ride height and body mounted couplers.

Dave

[Denver Road Doug]

Sean, your points are all valid, but dated.  It has been a looong time since IM did any kits other than undecs.  I'm not sure they were even still doing kits when I returned to the hobby in '99.  If they were I never saw any...only older runs.  Same with RC...no kits since their centerbeams came in, what, 2003?  While no basis in fact, I strongly got the impression that IM did kits for their "fringe" roads, thinking that if folks wanted fringe roads they'd build 'em.  I've never seen any IM kits I would consider "relevant" for my purposes. 

Granted I can see IM kits not selling when RTR's are available.  There is some value with RC coil cars being kits but again probably not gonna be great sellers side-by-side with RTR.  I was intending to refer to models like the Rail Yard coil car...which specifically may not have been a success, but for example you have the whalebelly hoppers that sold out, albeit resin and a much smaller run.  The Alan Curtis/N-Scale Kits kits have been successful.  And no, wholesale movement to kits wouldn't be wise.  But having the option might be.  But the bigger point is that the underframe idea might have merit now, as opposed to 20 years ago.

I just think you have more people trading out wheels and trucks, adding BLMA details, and desiring less common cars like specific tank cars, etc.  So having them in kit form to start with is a shortcut in a sense.  The big problem now is finding decals if the kits aren't the "shake the box" decorated models.

A side benefit is, the assembly on RTR models I've bought lately is attrocious.

[asarge]

Not today, not tomorrow and not ever will a kit have strong sales in N OR HO or any scale when an RTR Car or Loco is available. There are some HO old-timers out there that still believe that a kit sells better. They are so out of touch it's not funny. BUT, adding new couplers, wheels and tinkering with a car is almost a national pastime. But ride height has not yet become a major issue with the N scale community. Hopefully it will but for right now you will have to modify most cars on your own.

Now structure kits vs. RTR structures is a different story.........................

[GonzoCRFan]

Sean, your points are all valid, but dated.  It has been a looong time since IM did any kits other than undecs.  I'm not sure they were even still doing kits when I returned to the hobby in '99.  If they were I never saw any...only older runs.  Same with RC...no kits since their centerbeams came in, what, 2003?  While no basis in fact, I strongly got the impression that IM did kits for their "fringe" roads, thinking that if folks wanted fringe roads they'd build 'em.  I've never seen any IM kits I would consider "relevant" for my purposes. 

I'm pretty sure Red Caboose was still putting out coil car kits as late as 2005 or 2006 before they pulled the plug. And Rail Yard Models abandoned all hope of doing more N scale kits within the last year. If you wish to see them as dated, go right ahead... :

As far as "fringe road" kits, I still have their covered hopper kits for roads like BN and ATSF...hardly unknown railroads. They seemed to offer every road they produced in kit form.

Yes, the Alan Curtis kits did fairly well, but they're really of the "shake the box" variety, they're definitely not as involved as the Intermountain hoppers or the RYM coil cars. But they were simple kits of unique prototypes, or things that were necessary to modern modelers. If you want a mass quantity of 89' intermodal flats, you STILL have to go that route.

It is a shame, since I've always enjoyed building kits. I found the IMRC covered hoppers frustrating, but I always enjoyed the Red Caboose coil cars. And I would gladly save a buck or two per car to buy almost anything currently available in kit form. But the general trend in the major scales as of late has been moving away from kits. I even had a friend who is a very talented modeler get out of the hobby because he got sick of everything coming RTR with a large price tag.

[3rdrail]

Personally, I vastly prefer to purchase kits and assemble things myself, but, I have talked to both dealers and manufacturers at shows and prototype meets and experience has taught them that the cadre of modelers in N scale doing kitbuilding and scratchbuilding is simply not large enough to support a full-time business model.

I notice that Craig Martyn of BLMA has started to offer R-T-R models and completed buildngs, and more importantly, also started offering things in HO. Same with Art Fahle of Bar Mills...

I don't like it either, but have been around this ol' orb long enough to recognize that just because I think something is desireable doesn't mean others do.

Wisdom got me to remove "real" from in front of modelers in the 1st paragraph.

[Erik W]

I have talked to both dealers and manufacturers at shows and prototype meets and experience has taught them that the cadre of modelers in N scale doing kitbuilding and scratchbuilding is simply not large enough to support a full-time business model.

This is what we found at IMRC when I worked there.  I personally like building kits.  It gives me more opportunity to customize them and it's just plane fun.

Erik

[Denver Road Doug]

I'm pretty sure Red Caboose was still putting out coil car kits as late as 2005 or 2006 before they pulled the plug. And Rail Yard Models abandoned all hope of doing more N scale kits within the last year. If you wish to see them as dated, go right ahead... :

As far as "fringe road" kits, I still have their covered hopper kits for roads like BN and ATSF...hardly unknown railroads. They seemed to offer every road they produced in kit form.

I didn't realize RC was doing kits that recently.  I could never find the kits in the road names I wanted early on, and then it seemed they were gone...much earlier than 2006 but that could have been just random bad luck or a decision by the LHS and show dealers.  I realize Rail Yard Models coil car was more recent, but again...a pretty uncommon prototype at least from where I stand.

I've never--not once--come across any IM BN or ATSF covered hoppers or even seen any on eBay.  I just assumed they didn't do common roads as kits.  In fact about the only kits I see in any numbers are steam-era boxcars...there's a local shop that has close to a hundred probably.

Yes, the Alan Curtis kits did fairly well, but they're really of the "shake the box" variety, they're definitely not as involved as the Intermountain hoppers or the RYM coil cars. But they were simple kits of unique prototypes, or things that were necessary to modern modelers. If you want a mass quantity of 89' intermodal flats, you STILL have to go that route.

It is a shame, since I've always enjoyed building kits. I found the IMRC covered hoppers frustrating, but I always enjoyed the Red Caboose coil cars. And I would gladly save a buck or two per car to buy almost anything currently available in kit form. But the general trend in the major scales as of late has been moving away from kits. I even had a friend who is a very talented modeler get out of the hobby because he got sick of everything coming RTR with a large price tag.

I think of "shake the box" as the old Athearn Blue Box cars or the MDC cars in N.  Already decorated and basically easily assembled in a few minutes and no details to add.  Probably wouldn't put AC cars into that category, and to me the IM cars...not requiring painting and decalling...would fall into an easier-to-finish category than the AC kits.  But I get your point...no IM grab irons!  

This has kinda generated into an argument for more kits versus the original discussion about the underframes.  I just used that as one bullet point in a rebuttal about "this didn't work before thus it will never work" reasoning.  I certainly never suggested there would be "strong sales" of kits, not sure where that came from.  But, I would like to see them come back as 1/2% of a run or something like that...at least have the option.  I enjoy building kits too, but there's no way I would have bought kits for every car on my roster...I just don't have the time.  But now that I have a good bit of my roster it would be nice to build one on occassion.  I understand you can still get IM undec kits so I'll probably go that route.

I would like to see Rail Yard Models do anything else they've done in HO.  I could use everything they make.

[GonzoCRFan]

I would like to see Rail Yard Models do anything else they've done in HO.  I could use everything they make.

Ditto on that. I think if they came out with a simple kit like their G47 gon, which would have seen much more widespread use than the G41 coil car, their foray into N scale might have been more profitable. I always wonder just why they chose such an obscure prototype that wasn't even part of their HO line to test the N scale waters. Was it because they knew it wouldn't do well and wanted to have hard evidence to point to when they would say they didn't want to pursue N scale anymore? Seems kinda a paranoid thought, and also expensive on their part...

I do wish I had picked up more of their G41s while they were out, they just weren't too high on my priorities list. Guess the moral of the story is that if there's something unique and you need it, buy it while you can.

I regard the AC kits as shake-the-box because they're really easy to assemble. Sand down the parts, clue on the stirrups, slap on the trucks and couplers and you can run it. I definitely didn't take paint into consideration, but I know that is a hurdle for some people.

[amato1969]

A side benefit is, the assembly on RTR models I've bought lately is attrocious.

That's the exact reason I like to build the IM boxcars myself.  Plus, I can weight them properly so they track well.

  Frank

[sirenwerks]

Sorry, but we unfortunately do have quite a bit of evidence to suggest that freight car kits in N scale do not sell well. Intermountain gave their covered hopper kits the axe several years ago because people weren't buying them. Red Caboose stopped making their coil cars in kit form about 2 years ago, I was told by my supplier he heard they weren't selling enough of them. And most recently, Rail Yard Models gave up on their G41 coil car kit because sales weren't where the owner needed them to be. Granted, he picked an oddball prototype for a first N scale kit.

I think that thinking's a bit skewed. First off, the whole "we tried that and it didn't work so we'll never do it again" attitude is BS. 95% of the time, the people who say that 'want' the outcome to be the case and don't stop to try to figure out 'why' the idea didn't work. Or there expectations were set too high. RYM didn't put a whole lot of effort into marketing their kits, whether it was an obscure model or not. People don't buy things they don't know exist.

As was said before, there's a new segment to the N scale population, those who want more in terms of detail and running quality. And these people I think wold buy kits, so they don't have to take apart the model as they would be apt to do. Plus, I personally would like the cost savings and even the little satisfaction of snapping things together even if I don't superdetail it.

But back to my main point, IM and RC need to look at why the kits didn't sell. Did they not market them well (Did customer know about them)? Were they not regularly stocked by LHS (Was there an incentive for retailer for shelf space, to sell them side-by-side or instead of built-ups)? I liked the satisfaction of the kits, but it wasn't until recently that I needed coil cars, so the timing was all off. And that's another thing manufacturers don't seem to get and their market reactions seem to be knee jerk and based on immediate gratification. They don't realize that the average modeler is not going to buy the fleet they need as soon as the product hits the street, that they will build it up over time, as road numbers and money permits. Perhaps if the manufacturers adopted some ideas floating around here, like blank road numbers and decals to add them, then sales might be effected positively.

[Ntrainz1]

I also would prefer to assemble kits if they were available. My first two freight cars were Atlas kits. MTL used to sell kits in blister packs. I have built RC coilcars and IM covered hoppers. I feel building the kit gives me more for the money and makes it easier to modify and weather the model. I would buy more kits if they were available.

Bob.