TheRailwire
General Discussion => Product Discussion => Topic started by: drbnc on November 04, 2022, 06:38:51 AM
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Saw this early today... pre-production.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/31/4050-041122063749.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=31133)
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Fingers crossed that 4018 is one of the numbers being released!
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Looks pretty good. Typical Kato design. The "separately applied glued-on details crowd" will not be impressed. Hey, then can have their Athearns (or BLI eventually). It will likely run like a typical Kato too (a good thing). If it really has 2 motors (like mentioned in the initial announcement), that might get a bit odd (for DCC installs).
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Looks pretty good. Typical Kato design. The "separately applied glued-on details crowd" will not be impressed. Hey, then can have their Athearns (or BLI eventually). It will likely run like a typical Kato too (a good thing). If it really has 2 motors (like mentioned in the initial announcement), that might get a bit odd (for DCC installs).
Lol, it's funny, I was actually about to say "look at Kato rocking the old school molded on details" :D
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Sure hope the hand rails are not apply by modeler like the Mikado was. There'll be stanchions all over the carpet to jab bare feet if so.
Love the clear tie track.
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Looks like Mr. Kato decided to produce this as only the 4014, with the Challenger oil tender with its modern safety appliances, no ashpans under the firebox, dual dynamos up top and what looks like an antenna on the the center-rear of the cab top.
If this is the only Big Boy they produce, and past Kato marketing practices indicate it WILL be, I'll not be buying a couple for my transition era UP layout.
On the good side, I can see that the pilot handrails have the lower diagonal brace...which Athearn decided not to do..., the steam blow-off valves up on top look like real brass. Now, if the throttle assembly on the engineer's side is separate, that will be a good thing. Side-rod and valve gear all look very nice, with blackened tires on the drivers and nickel plated cylinder/valve covers. Very nice.
The guy who designs the smokeboxes on both the Kato FEF and this Big Boy would benefit greatly from forgetting about saving a buck or two and specify separate piping for most of it. I notice that there isn't any piping up by where the whistle will go, so hopefully, at least those pipes will be separate.
I think the rumor about dual motors is fallacious. I haven't heard any corroboration of the rumor yet, and if it were actually going to happen, I would think it would be leaked.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to comparing the Kato 4014 with BLI's version...at least BLI is offering transition era models, which if Kato doesn't do that, I think it's a HUGE marketing error.
But, oh well....
Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore
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Yes as Bob has posted, it will probably be the only road number available right now and it does have the modern Oil Tender. I hope that sometime in the future KATO would do a coal tender and add new numbers , but I doubt this as the tender is probably the same one used on the 844 with the modern bunker. Nate Goodman. (Nato). However the model does look good.
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Kato released the CAD drawings showing 2 motors.
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Chris;
Interesting. Wonder why they did that. The Bachmann 2-8-8-4 EM1, perhaps considered a better runner than the holy grail Kato Mike, only used one motor. Pulls like a Mack, and silent to boot. Really curious to the engineering logic.
Kind regards,
Bill
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Anyway, I'm looking forward to comparing the Kato 4014 with BLI's version...at least BLI is offering transition era models, which if Kato doesn't do that, I think it's a HUGE marketing error.
Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore
Bob;
What is this "transition era" you keep talking about? I haven't heard a manufacturer seriously address that "era" in some time. On the other hand, it keeps my bank account from shrinking... With a smile.
Kind regards,
Bill
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Bob;
What is this "transition era" you keep talking about? I haven't heard a manufacturer seriously address that "era" in some time. On the other hand, it keeps my bank account from shrinking... With a smile.
Kind regards,
Bill
Bill, I believe by "Transition Era" He means end of mainline steam use here in the US. so basically the "As Retired" Look and appliances as opposed to the now modernized for current operation version.
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Here is the 2 motor CAD drawing from Kato:
https://www.facebook.com/officialkatousainc/photos/4788850907850555/
It was shown some time ago and I'm sure there are better photos of it out there.
I'm sure they are the coreless motors that Kato has been using so both of them probably draw less power than a regular N scale diesel.
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Bill, I believe by "Transition Era" He means end of mainline steam use here in the US. so basically the "As Retired" Look and appliances as opposed to the now modernized for current operation version.
Was just subtly joking about "transition era" with Bob, as we both model that era and often lament the lack of attention given to the era by manufacturers of late. Hence the "with a smile" phrase.
Kind regards,
Bill
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Chris;
Interesting. Wonder why they did that. The Bachmann 2-8-8-4 EM1, perhaps considered a better runner than the holy grail Kato Mike, only used one motor. Pulls like a Mack, and silent to boot. Really curious to the engineering logic.
Kind regards,
Bill
AFAIK, all the other articulated steam N scale models (both plastic and brass) use single motor. Why Kato did it? Most likely reason is because they have those small powerful coreless motors which can be mounted directly in each engine, making the design simpler. No universals or drive shafts. Also, possibly just to be the first company to have done that in N scale.
I recall that @robert3985 was all excited about dual motor announcement (back when the preliminary announcement was made some time ago) because of the possibility that the engines will go in and out of sync. I doubt that will happen since I do not expect any wheel slippage in N scale. Especially if they will have traction tires. Also, the slippage thing pretty much only benefit sound-equipped models (who will really notice the small drivers slipping?), but that would also require using 2 separate sound decoders and a chuff cam. Way too much trouble IMO.
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With 2 motors they can have independent chuffing that is in sync with each other at times . Smaller diameter motors feed only 8 drivers each . Each motor driver set can be assembled and tested independently which may be liked by KATO . U18B may differ . I have one on pre-order .
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With 2 motors they can have independent chuffing that is in sync with each other at times .
The elephant in the room is that you will likely need 2 sound decoders (at $100+ each) if using virtual cam (motor BEMF), or 2 physical cams if you expect the engines to go out of sync (one engine slipping a but occasionally). I believe that was Bob Gilmore expectation.
If a single decoder is used with a sound file for simple articulated engine, then you will still get the uneven beat of 2 steam engines, but they not have that special occasional out-of-sync effect. I'm also not sure how a single decoder driving 2 motors will behave. Theoretically since both shoudl see the same load, it might work, but will it?
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Bob;
What is this "transition era" you keep talking about? I haven't heard a manufacturer seriously address that "era" in some time. On the other hand, it keeps my bank account from shrinking... With a smile.
Kind regards,
Bill
Bill, HaHa!...Actually, my bank account has been shrinking a bit these last two years with the release of ScaleTrains Standard Turbines, of which I had to buy a bagful...and an extra fuel tender too! If I already didn't have several brass Key UP-ized USRA Light MacArthurs (Mikados) I would have bought several of the lovely BLI Light Mikes with sound, even if their drivers were solid and the stack wasn't a big, fat Sweeney stack...
Now that the 5511 has been donated to the Railroading Heritage of Midwest America for restoration, I fully expect to see an N-scale version of this very UP TTT in the next five years...which would just about complete what I think I need for UP steam engines!... Unless, of course Kato decides to do an FEF-2, or an FEF-3 without the Worthington SA feedwater heater.
Then, of course, I would bet that Scaletrains has a Veranda Turbine in the works right now...another bag of turbines to buy!...
I'm a pretty happy camper right now... :D
Photo (1) - Bag O' Turbines....
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/31/1200-041122222527.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=31144)
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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The elephant in the room is that you will likely need 2 sound decoders (at $100+ each) if using virtual cam (motor BEMF), or 2 physical cams if you expect the engines to go out of sync (one engine slipping a but occasionally). I believe that was Bob Gilmore expectation.
If a single decoder is used with a sound file for simple articulated engine, then you will still get the uneven beat of 2 steam engines, but they not have that special occasional out-of-sync effect. I'm also not sure how a single decoder driving 2 motors will behave. Theoretically since both shoudl see the same load, it might work, but will it?
@peteski Peter, When I read about the possibility that Kato might install two motors in their Big Boy, I thought off-the-cuff that it would be cool if the out-of-sync sound that was actually registered to each engine would be possible. However, the Soundtraxx Tsunamis that I install in my Athearn Big Boys and Challengers have a sound function that is like an occasionally out-of-sync sound, but it is only able to be synchronized with one engine since there is no slippage on the Athearn models.
It sounds pretty cool, and truthfully, when running them on my layout and at shows, I am not paying close enough attention to notice that one set of chuffs is not in sync with either the front or rear engine.
I would be surprised if Kato actually does two motors...as I see no advantage to it other than a separate motor for the front engine would weigh it down, so it would pull like there's no tomorrow! And THAT is a big advantage, which is why I hope they do a version that represents Big Boy as it was while still in service in the 40's and 50's.
Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore
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Let's play 'count the motors'. :)
[attachimg=1]
Jason
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@peteski
I would be surprised if Kato actually does two motors...as I see no advantage to it other than a separate motor for the front engine would weigh it down, so it would pull like there's no tomorrow! And THAT is a big advantage, which is why I hope they do a version that represents Big Boy as it was while still in service in the 40's and 50's.
Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore
Bob, that is not quite what you mentioned in a post some time ago responding to my post:
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg708842#msg708842 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg708842#msg708842)
We had additional discussion later in that thread (basically going over what we are discussing now).
The technical drawing in the FB picture linked to earlier clearly shows 2 coreless motors with conical flywheels.
Most N scale motors have lots of excess power compared the weight of the loco. The weight of the loco (directly related to its adhesion) will be the limiting factor when it comes to its pulling power (regardless if there is one or two motors). Actually with a single motor, more weight could be added to the boiler, increasing the adhesion. A single motor would still have more than ample power to get the model moving under load. And in single motor design the entire weight of the boiler (motor, ballast weight) rests on the pivot points of both engines. Even if the rear engine was rigidly mounted to the boiler, the weight distribution of 50/50% on both engines could be achieved.
Also just to bring in the full history of this announcement, quoting my post from 2021 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=52983.msg726123#msg726123):
Kato Big Boy was "officially" announced back in 2019.
Earlier that year, there was a Kato poll.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46480.msg614895#msg614895 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46480.msg614895#msg614895)
We also had discussions about it in 2020.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=47418.0 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=47418.0)
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=50014.msg673739#msg673739 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=50014.msg673739#msg673739)
And a discussion about possibly a dual-motor mechanism.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg707978#msg707978 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg707978#msg707978)
And another one (unfortunately the image in that post is no longer on Kato website, but it is the same one as the one on FB mentioned earlier in this thread).
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=53596.0 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=53596.0)
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And the flywheels are a bigger diameter than the armature so they actually work.
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And the flywheels are a bigger diameter than the armature so they actually work.
Well, any diameter flywheel will "work", but the bigger diameter ones will have more energy stored. And with coreless motors (no armature, just a very light winding "basket"), any diameter flywheel will work even better than with a conventional iron-armature motor.
But even with typical Atlas type motor, any size mass (flywheel) on the motor shaft will provide the flywheel effect. Even if it is same diameter as the armature. But I do agree that the larger a flywheel is, the better it will work.
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How many Big Boys will the market bear? BLI is releasing theirs early next year, Kato is going to release their model, and Athearn came out with theirs not long ago.
Can we get a decent 2-10-x mechanism in N scale, or a nice small switcher? These are two glaring holes in N scale steam that no one seems to want to fill.
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Bob, that is not quite what you mentioned in a post some time ago responding to my post:
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg708842#msg708842 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg708842#msg708842)
We had additional discussion later in that thread (basically going over what we are discussing now).
The technical drawing in the FB picture linked to earlier clearly shows 2 coreless motors with conical flywheels.
Most N scale motors have lots of excess power compared the weight of the loco. The weight of the loco (directly related to its adhesion) will be the limiting factor when it comes to its pulling power (regardless if there is one or two motors). Actually with a single motor, more weight could be added to the boiler, increasing the adhesion. A single motor would still have more than ample power to get the model moving under load. And in single motor design the entire weight of the boiler (motor, ballast weight) rests on the pivot points of both engines. Even if the rear engine was rigidly mounted to the boiler, the weight distribution of 50/50% on both engines could be achieved.
Also just to bring in the full history of this announcement, quoting my post from 2021 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=52983.msg726123#msg726123):
Kato Big Boy was "officially" announced back in 2019.
Earlier that year, there was a Kato poll.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46480.msg614895#msg614895 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46480.msg614895#msg614895)
We also had discussions about it in 2020.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=47418.0 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=47418.0)
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=50014.msg673739#msg673739 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=50014.msg673739#msg673739)
And a discussion about possibly a dual-motor mechanism.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg707978#msg707978 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg707978#msg707978)
And another one (unfortunately the image in that post is no longer on Kato website, but it is the same one as the one on FB mentioned earlier in this thread).
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=53596.0 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=53596.0)
Hey Peter...I'm getting old and I didn't go back and pull all the references...just what I remembered! If they do it, GREAT!...but, I'll believe it when I see it. AND, just because there are early engineering drawings doesn't mean they're gonna actually make it that way. Anyway, it's an interesting topic, but I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it since I probably won't be getting any Kato 4014's in excursion configuration since it wouldn't fit the era I'm modeling.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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How many Big Boys will the market bear? BLI is releasing theirs early next year, Kato is going to release their model, and Athearn came out with theirs not long ago.
Can we get a decent 2-10-x mechanism in N scale, or a nice small switcher? These are two glaring holes in N scale steam that no one seems to want to fill.
I have no idea how many Big Boys the market will bear, but right now I've got nine Athearn Big Boys....and I want four more...and I'll be waiting with 'bated breath to see the BLI models with hopes they're better than the Athearn models...which I am not dissatisfied with at all, especially after I shorten the tender drawbar.
Here's a photo of some of my Big Boys and Challengers I took several years ago. I need to update it 'cause I've got nearly twice this amount now....
Photo (1) - Athearn Big Boys and Challengers at Echo Yard several years ago:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/31/1200-051122003330.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=31156)
Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore
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How many Big Boys will the market bear? BLI is releasing theirs early next year, Kato is going to release their model, and Athearn came out with theirs not long ago.
Can we get a decent 2-10-x mechanism in N scale, or a nice small switcher? These are two glaring holes in N scale steam that no one seems to want to fill.
tsk tsk read your own post :D :D
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51215.15
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tsk tsk read your own post :D :D
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51215.15
I can like more than one engine at a time... :D
Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore
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I have feeling that the majority of their Big Boy sales will be in Japan (not in U.S.). After all, that is their primary market and they have lots of fans there.
I wish we had the sales numbers for the various GG1s produced by multiple companies. There is yet another GG1 coming form BLI correct?.
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I feel like most buyers will be loyal to a specific brand. I will buy Kato’s but have less interest in Athearn’s and absolutely no interest in BLI’s. I think all three have their strengths and I own engines from all three companies. It is just something at this price point my needs and comfort level cross at Kato.
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It may be the photo, but as they say in the South, ''There's just something not right about that (Big) Boy".
The rods and wheels look like some Del Prado / Americon static model and the whole thing lacks "presence". The BLI and Athearn look right.
It is a Kato Japan project....for the brand-loyal Japanese that only want a Kato. When I was still at Kato USA none of the staff thought it was a winning project and it has suppressed new Kato North American projects for over 15 years....as we all warned.
Charlie Vlk
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It may be the photo, but as they say in the South, ''There's just something not right about that (Big) Boy".
The rods and wheels look like some Del Prado / Americon static model and the whole thing lacks "presence". The BLI and Athearn look right.
It is a Kato Japan project....for the brand-loyal Japanese that only want a Kato. When I was still at Kato USA none of the staff thought it was a winning project and it has suppressed new Kato North American projects for over 15 years....as we all warned.
Charlie Vlk
I can't see the running gear all that well in the photo, but...the smokebox isn't well attached to the boiler, the cab looks like it's tilted forward, the tender looks like it's center axis is off center and the pilot looks wonky. From photos I acquired a long time ago of one of their pilot models (sorry...I am sworn not to publish them) detailing overall looks pretty much right on for a modernized, oil-fired 4014 in excursion service, with the typical monkey-motion model articulation that allows running on Unitrack for that product's devotees. Some items that are cast-on details on the Athearn model have been made separate, and/or much more distinct on the Kato model.
I'm not sure what the purpose was to publish a bad photo of a badly assembled model as I am 100% positive that Kato completed the "pilot model" phase nearly a year ago and has fully assembled, fully painted and ready-to-go models right now.
They're probably saving those good photos for next weekend's official introduction at Trainfest.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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I have no idea how many Big Boys the market will bear, but right now I've got nine Athearn Big Boys....and I want four more...and I'll be waiting with 'bated breath to see the BLI models with hopes they're better than the Athearn models...which I am not dissatisfied with at all, especially after I shorten the tender drawbar.
Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore
Bob, not to hijack the thread, just a question: what do you do to the Challenger tenders to backdate them? Is there a thread somewhere?
Thanks, Otto
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The market will bear a LOT of Big Boys, because it is an iconic engine that nearly everyone has seen in photos, videos, or now in person. I have an Athearn model, because . . . well, because. Great draw at Ntrak shows. And if selling them makes money for manufacturers that they then plow into other useful items (like a 2-10-4 or a C&O Allegheny, or heaven forbid, FM H10-44 and H12-44 switchers), fine with me. I won't be participating in the next few Big Boy rounds, because they weren't exactly plentiful on the NKP :), but I'm very curious about whether two motors will be used, and if so, how DCC and DCC/Sound will be implemented. Got to believe there will be a sound option, and that it probably will come from ESU. Will two decoders really be necessary? Or just one, wired to the motors in parallel (?) with the articulated sound (out-of-sync option included)? Kato's engineering is always fascinating, even when it is too complicated for their own good.
John C.
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I'm very curious about whether two motors will be used, and if so, how DCC and DCC/Sound will be implemented. Got to believe there will be a sound option, and that it probably will come from ESU.
John C.
I have no interest in this model, but two motors would not be a new thing for Kato (see their HO P42).
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I have no interest in this model, but two motors would not be a new thing for Kato (see their HO P42).
They have at least one non-US model with dual motors too.
Jason
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I can't see the running gear all that well in the photo, but...the smokebox isn't well attached to the boiler, the cab looks like it's tilted forward, the tender looks like it's center axis is off center and the pilot looks wonky. From photos I acquired a long time ago of one of their pilot models (sorry...I am sworn not to publish them) detailing overall looks pretty much right on for a modernized, oil-fired 4014 in excursion service, with the typical monkey-motion model articulation that allows running on Unitrack for that product's devotees. Some items that are cast-on details on the Athearn model have been made separate, and/or much more distinct on the Kato model.
I'm not sure what the purpose was to publish a bad photo of a badly assembled model as I am 100% positive that Kato completed the "pilot model" phase nearly a year ago and has fully assembled, fully painted and ready-to-go models right now.
They're probably saving those good photos for next weekend's official introduction at Trainfest.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
Bob, you are fixated on the Facebook photo from the initial post in this thread, when some of us have long moved on to the technical drawing (which was also posted on page 2 of this thread). It clearly shows 2 motors with conical flywheels, and while not absolutely clear, the rear engine might be rigidly mounted to the boiler.
I'm reposting that image here:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54960.0;attach=51912;image)
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Bob, you are fixated on the Facebook photo from the initial post in this thread, when some of us have long moved on to the technical drawing (which was also posted on page 2 of this thread). It clearly shows 2 motors with conical flywheels, and while not absolutely clear, the rear engine might be rigidly mounted to the boiler.
I'm reposting that image here:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54960.0;attach=51912;image)
@peteski Peter, wellllll....if I hafta be fixated on something, then an N-scale Big Boy is an excellent subject! :D
Okay okay okay...I'll be really interested in seeing what the dual motors do for the model. I assume really good pulling power, and prototypical out-of-synch-ness every now and then. Maybe I should read my old previous posts for some continuity in my thought processes, but...nah...that'd be too simple. :facepalm:
CHEERIO!!!
Bob Gilmore
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Kato's poll:
Here were the results of our last web poll, where we asked what "pie in the sky" future product you'd like to see us make in N scale:
#1 - Big Boy
#2 - Milwaukee Road Little Joe
#3 - LORAM Rail Grinder
#4 - UP DD40AX
#5 - Milwaukee Road Bi-Polar
Thanks everyone who participated!
So we got another Bigboy due to voting :trollface:
Also from Kato:
Kato USA, Inc.
It will have two motors in the locomotive
I think the official Kato CAD poster artwork disappeared when they redid their website.
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Bob, not to hijack the thread, just a question: what do you do to the Challenger tenders to backdate them? Is there a thread somewhere?
Thanks, Otto
@Cajonpassfan Otto, I haven't backdated any Athearn Challenger tenders yet. My plan is to 3D print the much simplified oil hatch (or hatches sometimes), the bunker top and the vents up towards the front of the oil bunker. I was planning on visiting the 833 FEF-2's oil tender that's parked behind the fence at the Utah Railroad Museum in Ogden, but because of the pandemic and most of the volunteers who work there being OLD, they shut down, then opened sporadically so I could never get in, or never find anybody to give me permission to go up top and take photos and measurements. They are open on a regular schedule now, but doing that has not been a priority due to family matters and a big change in my financial world.
However, I did acquire a couple of the last run of Key's superdetailed FEF-2's...both oil fired, and their tender details are exquisite, so...I'm thinking about using them as references.
The main problem I have with any of the Athearn Challengers being oil fired is how to remove the ash pans under the firebox. I haven't really studied the matter yet other than to get out my Challenger reference photos for oil-fired Challengers. Hmmm...maybe the fireboxes on my Oriental oil-fired Challengers would be good to take a peek at...
Let's see...your time period is a single year...1940-something? 1946? Lots of Challengers were coal fired in that era, with only a few being converted to burn oil, and later renumbered to the 3700 Class Challengers. I am also not well informed if the LA & SLC was fully oil at that time or not. UP filled up the last coal-fired engine at the Echo Coaling Tower on March 15, 1952. After that date, no more Big Boys plied the rails in Weber and Echo Canyons and Ogden to Green River was strictly oil country. If you're looking to "backdate" your tenders to coal tenders, that's simple...I ordered Big Boy coal bunkers from Athearn, and snapped the oil bunkers out on selected Challengers, and then snapped coal bunkers in. Just gotta pry up the toolbox and remove it, then slide the bunker backwards. It's a bit stiff, but it just slides back a bit, and then you can take it out. Put the new coal bunker in doing just the reverse.
Hope that answers at least part of your question!
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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@robert3985 Bob, no, no, no; no coal in Southern California...all oil, since very early 20th century. I call my railroad "circa 1949" but actually have two specific periods in mind: Spring '48 and Spring '51. The former, mostly steam, is hard to do because of lack of appropriate locos, but I did accumulate four Challengers for the earlier period. If you ever get around to backdating yours, I'll be very interested. (One of the Challengers, the original Athearn release, is a "project engine" I'd like to rebuild to represent the original series with a semi-Vanderbilt tender, see below, but that is a Project :P
Thanks for your feedback,
Otto
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Kato's poll:
So we got another Bigboy due to voting :trollface:
Also from Kato:
I think the official Kato CAD poster artwork disappeared when they redid their website.
If I understood Charlie Vlk's earlier post correctly, Kato was considering producing N scale Big Boy when he was still working for Kato. That is quite a bit earlier than when the poll was taken. The poll likely helped to move that project along.
I do agree that the poster artwork disappearance is due to Kato redesigning their website.
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So it was a rigged voting machine. :P
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...and with the elections coming
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"It clearly shows 2 motors with conical flywheels, and while not absolutely clear, the rear engine might be rigidly mounted to the boiler."
Only works if the motor on the lead engine is on the engine between the drivers, non-powered or Jack-shafted from the rear engine. None of which are really viable.
Oh boy, a chance to over-engineer and complicate a solution to a non-problem!!
The rear engine is pivoted, like every articulated in N.
Charlie Vlk
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"It clearly shows 2 motors with conical flywheels, and while not absolutely clear, the rear engine might be rigidly mounted to the boiler."
Only works if the motor on the lead engine is on the engine between the drivers, non-powered or Jack-shafted from the rear engine. None of which are really viable.
Oh boy, a chance to over-engineer and complicate a solution to a non-problem!!
The rear engine is pivoted, like every articulated in N.
Charlie Vlk
Why isn't everybody clearly seeing 2 motors in that loco's cross section drawing, without any mechanical drive shaft between them?
The motors are blue, and light purple is metal chassis. Lavender are the engine chassis'. No connection form the back of the front engine motor to the rear engine's flywheel. I do agree that the model is way overengineered, but Kato has been doing that to other models too.
As for rigidly mounting the rear engine, my N scale brass Sakatsu Big Boy is made that way. The front engine's pivot point is also similar to 1:1 - it pivots at the rear of the front engine. It needs wide curves to run.
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Why isn't everybody clearly seeing 2 motors in that loco's cross section drawing, without any mechanical drive shaft between them?
The motors are blue, and light purple is metal chassis. Lavender are the engine chassis'. No connection form the back of the front engine motor to the rear engine's flywheel. I do agree that the model is way overengineered, but Kato has been doing that to other models too.
As for rigidly mounting the rear engine, my N scale brass Sakatsu Big Boy is made that way. The front engine's pivot point is also similar to 1:1 - it pivots at the rear of the front engine. It needs wide curves to run.
Maybe they're color blind.... :trollface:
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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Why isn't everybody clearly seeing 2 motors in that loco's cross section drawing, without any mechanical drive shaft between them?
The motors are blue, and light purple is metal chassis. Lavender are the engine chassis'. No connection form the back of the front engine motor to the rear engine's flywheel. I do agree that the model is way overengineered, but Kato has been doing that to other models too.
As for rigidly mounting the rear engine, my N scale brass Sakatsu Big Boy is made that way. The front engine's pivot point is also similar to 1:1 - it pivots at the rear of the front engine. It needs wide curves to run.
Maybe I'm off, mechanically, but to me, if the rear engine is rigidly connected to the boiler, then when going around curves, the front is going to swing out wide. How does the worm and worm gear from the front motor - which is housed in the boiler - stay connected as the boiler swings back and forth on curves, turnouts, etc? The curves would have to be extremely wide, wouldn't they? I suppose a very wide worm gear might work, letting the worm slide back and forth across it.
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So it was a rigged voting machine. :P
I'm not sure about rigged, but with two Milwaukee Road models, voting got split allowing the Big Boy to win!
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Maybe I'm off, mechanically, but to me, if the rear engine is rigidly connected to the boiler, then when going around curves, the front is going to swing out wide. How does the worm and worm gear from the front motor - which is housed in the boiler - stay connected as the boiler swings back and forth on curves, turnouts, etc? The curves would have to be extremely wide, wouldn't they? I suppose a very wide worm gear might work, letting the worm slide back and forth across it.
I think they are like the HO P42, the motors are truck mounted. It also looks like they found a way to keep the rear truck from swinging but still do fore to aft motion from the drawing.
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Maybe I'm off, mechanically, but to me, if the rear engine is rigidly connected to the boiler, then when going around curves, the front is going to swing out wide. How does the worm and worm gear from the front motor - which is housed in the boiler - stay connected as the boiler swings back and forth on curves, turnouts, etc? The curves would have to be extremely wide, wouldn't they? I suppose a very wide worm gear might work, letting the worm slide back and forth across it.
To me it looks like the motor/flywheel unit is rigidly attached to each engine. Like a powered truck. The worm located between the motor and flywheels is coupled directly to the worm gear. The pivot point for the entire powered engine is at the gear tower, slightly behind the 3rd driver). Both front and rear engines look identical. I guess the rear engine might also swing (pivoting at the same location as the front engine, since they look identical). That would make sense since these will be running on Unitrak curves, but what seems perfectly clear to me is that each engine is a complete powered unit.
Maybe they're color blind.... :trollface:
You might be onto something there Bob. I guess I'm one of the lucky guys who can see a full color range. :P
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I stand corrected. Never having had a need for Challengers or Big Boys in plastic and certainly not in brass, I did not pay attention to the many brass examples shaft-powered to the rear driver of the front engine. While these were mostly powered by one large motor on a common shaft, it did allow the rear engine to be fixed to the boiler.
This limits the operating radii well beyond most Unitrack curves and could be used with two motors but not for a non-brass production model.
Charlie Vlk
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Official announcement next month according to them on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/officialkatousainc/posts/pfbid02hu6NWRoFzVVAWXqKr5dEVERzKbV6zUJKAecSihbd9zmehRXj98XFKu3wX3mpgtm6l
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But when will there be an official official official announcement.
I swear, with all of the time they've spent on this they could've done a C30-7, C36-7, U28C, U30C, U33C and U36C...
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But when will there be an official official official announcement.
I swear, with all of the time they've spent on this they could've done a C30-7, C36-7, U28C, U30C, U33C and U36C...
I was told the tooling time for this was the same as four diesels.
Jason
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https://katousa.com/n-bigboy/
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Wow, if I were ever to buy a steam locomotive, this would be the one I bought. It looks fantastic.
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Dual motors confirmed.
Model looks good.
The handrails look a bit chunky, but they are plastic so it would be difficult to make them thinner.
The write-up is not quite accurate. It states "Thanks to the articulated design just like the real engine, the two sets of driving wheels are able to move independently . . ." That is not correct In the real 4-8-8-4 only the front engine pivoted (the pivot point was at the rear of the engine. The rear engine was rigidly attached to the boiler. But of course to negotiate 11" curves bot engines have to be articulated (just like other brands of Big Boy models).
And the pre-installed sound decoder will be Soundtraxx. :( I find that odd, especially after ESU recently produced several decoders specifically for Kato models. But at least they do offer a DC version of the loco.
One thing that bugs me is that the plastic parts of the valve gear on all Kato steam locos use a silver plastic that has a "cool" silver color, which doe not match the "warmer" silver color of the metal parts.
Fleischmann for example also uses plastic parts for those items, but they use different mix of metallic powders in their plastic so the color better matches the rest of the metal parts of the valve gear. I'm probably one of the few people who even notice this or care. :|
EDIT:
I looked at the parts diagram. Very interesting design. Each engine is a fully self contained unit, including the motor. Sort of like the powered truck on their H0 P42. Good to see that the weight of the engine is accurately balanced over the engines and that the traction tires are on the geared driver.
The tender looks like the one used with FEF.
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Pardon me if I'm just merely looking at the diagrams too hard, but I dont see where the decoder(s) go in this thing.
Unless I'm missing something, as the tender looks just like the FEF did and empty. I'm assuming the green board on the Big Boy is the same relevance as the DC board for the FEF possibly? But that would make speakers a nightmare to run wires to. Maybe its going to be a hardwire? Seems so backwards.
FEF Diagram:
https://katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/N-parts-FEF.pdf
Big Boy Diagram:
https://katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/N-parts-BigBoy.pdf
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Yes, I also don't see an easy way for a DCC conversion. The motor leads connect directly to the frame halves of each engine, and I don't see any circuit boards in the tender. The drawbar only has 2 conductors (for the rail pickup). It would be strange if Kato didn't make those more DCC friendly.
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Pardon me if I'm just merely looking at the diagrams too hard, but I dont see where the decoder(s) go in this thing.
Unless I'm missing something, as the tender looks just like the FEF did and empty. I'm assuming the green board on the Big Boy is the same relevance as the DC board for the FEF possibly? But that would make speakers a nightmare to run wires to. Maybe its going to be a hardwire? Seems so backwards.
FEF Diagram:
https://katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/N-parts-FEF.pdf
Big Boy Diagram:
https://katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/N-parts-BigBoy.pdf
The green part is definitely a light board considering that the Big Boy's headlight sits on the pilot deck. As to where a drop in decoder goes, I can't tell from the diagram.
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The green part is definitely a light board considering that the Big Boy's headlight sits on the pilot deck. As to where a drop in decoder goes, I can't tell from the diagram.
That is correct, and it connects directly to the front engine's frame halves. It definitely is not DCC friendly.
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BOOM:
https://katousa.com/n-bigboy/?fbclid=IwAR1UgsKsoZqOvzrhEz3ppanL5hah-vdleHTnetfRu3d45Eb-qZSJ_Ufcsp0
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BOOM:
https://katousa.com/n-bigboy/
Yes, we have been discussing it. That link you posted (but without the tracking codes) was posted earlier, in Reply #54 to this thread.
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I'd guess the motor leads are a press fit into the frame and you just pull them out.
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I'd guess the motor leads are a press fit into the frame and you just pull them out.
Yes, but then each motor moves around with each engine, so there will be lots of sloppy wires routed through the loco. Not sure how much clearance there is in the chassis for those wires. Then there are the headlight wires. Sure, it is doable, but it probably won't be pretty.
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Yes, but then each motor moves around with each engine, so there will be lots of sloppy wires routed through the loco.
I don't think so. I looks like there are spring wipers inside the frame on either side of the motors both front and back so the motor can rotate while still making contact.
Then there are the headlight wires. Sure, it is doable, but it probably won't be pretty.
The headlight looks like a lightboard fitted to the frame.
Jason
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looking at that parts diagram and being way too familiar with Kato design, it *appears* that the individual truck assemblies (the articulated trucks) are isolated electrically from the upper frame and there are contacts to go from the motor assemblies to the upper frame. (which is good because the motors are then isolated from the pickup frames unlike the HO P42's.)
The front light is it's on separate (small) PCB that appears to just clip into the front frame/articulated truck. for independent headlight control that will have to be isolated. (unless if I'm missing something here)
The tender appears to either be reusing the same tooling (I don't have one right here to verify molding numbers) as the FEF3 so no biggie there. You can fit a V5 or micro and sugar cube in there.
Of course, they committed themselves to Soundtraxx and DCC (I'm guessing Digitrax provided) versions, so I'm hoping there was some forethought into *how* to install aftermarket DCC into these.
That said, the engineers at the factory have been known to throw modelers a bone and make sure there are recesses for wires and run throughs, which I hope they did on this as these will be interesting to install even basic DCC in.
In either case, I'll figure out how to shoehorn ESU LokSound into these. :)
Enjoy!
Kelley.
www.dufordmodelworks.com
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It will probably have a kato decoder like the GS4.
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looking at that parts diagram and being way too familiar with Kato design, it *appears* that the individual truck assemblies (the articulated trucks) are isolated electrically from the upper frame and there are contacts to go from the motor assemblies to the upper frame. (which is good because the motors are then isolated from the pickup frames unlike the HO P42's.)
www.dufordmodelworks.com
Few things don't add up to me.
First the motor contacts shown in that drawing are located under the motor, like they contact the bottom of the motor cavity in engine's sub-frame, or "truck" as Kelly calls it).
Then if the long frame in the boiler was just for motor electrical connection, how does the track pickup take place? Each engine picks up power from all its wheels through the engine frames. How would the front and rear engine be electrically connected (and then all of that connected to the drawbar)?
I still think that each engine's frame is fully self contained. If you removed them from the loco, each engine woudl be able to run by itself when placed on track.
I agree that the headlight gets is power from the front engine's frames. On the other end the drawbar is likely snapped onto a pivot on the rear engine,and also connected electrically to that engine's frames. Then the long frame on the top of the boiler electrically and mechanically connects both engines (with their integral motors) together so all the driving wheels, and tender wheels pickup electricity.
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Few things don't add up to me.
First the motor contacts shown in that drawing are located under the motor, like they contact the bottom of the motor cavity in engine's sub-frame, or "truck" as Kelly calls it).
Then if the long frame in the boiler was just for motor electrical connection, how does the track pickup take place? Each engine picks up power from all its wheels through the engine frames. How would the front and rear engine be electrically connected (and then all of that connected to the drawbar)?
I still think that each engine's frame is fully self contained. If you removed them from the loco, each engine woudl be able to run by itself when placed on track.
I agree that the headlight gets is power from the front engine's frames. On the other end the drawbar is likely snapped onto a pivot on the rear engine,and also connected electrically to that engine's frames. Then the long frame on the top of the boiler electrically and mechanically connects both engines (with their integral motors) together so all the driving wheels, and tender wheels pickup electricity.
These are certainly points to be figured out.
I'm merely speculating based on what I see. My observation looking at the 'mount' and motor harnesses is that those green wires are contacts to the upper frame halves. Whether or not the coreless motor tabs are electrically isolated from the lower frame halves (articulated trucks for lack of a better term) remains to be seen. This could go either way as the HO P42 was directly to the truck frames so they were self contained (and a pain to convert to DCC).
I'm guessing somehow the front and rear trucks are connected electrically with the drawbar and tender pickup. I could be wrong though.
It certainly wouldn't be the first time in recent memory that Kato has decided to not make DCC installation easy although they slooooowly seem to be adapting. I've gone more than a few rounds with Hiroshi over this topic multiple times and have gray hair to prove it.
Will be interesting to see one without the body on. There has to be a way to install DCC and or DCC/Sound with minimal rework or they will have shot their 'in house' installers in the foot.
Enjoy!
Kelley.
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The Kato page above says it can negotiate 11" curves. Damn!
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I just saw this in my inbox tonight. I looked at the parts diagram and said some expletives :D It would take me days to put that back together!!!
So whoever buys it DON'T bloody drop it!
Beautifully crafted - I'm glad I don't model UP and don't want or need it having said that why am I buying UP Gas Turbines :o
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Those tabs on the motors look just like they do on the C12:
https://userdisk.webry.biglobe.ne.jp/015/879/26/N000/000/002/143746602915208024179.jpg
Above the rear driver they fit into slots on the frame. Pull them out and it is now DCC ready.
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https://www.kato-start.com/bigboy-jp
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Pardon me if I'm just merely looking at the diagrams too hard, but I dont see where the decoder(s) go in this thing.
Unless I'm missing something, as the tender looks just like the FEF did and empty. I'm assuming the green board on the Big Boy is the same relevance as the DC board for the FEF possibly? But that would make speakers a nightmare to run wires to. Maybe its going to be a hardwire? Seems so backwards.
FEF Diagram:
https://katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/N-parts-FEF.pdf
Big Boy Diagram:
https://katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/N-parts-BigBoy.pdf
Where are you finding the parts diagrams,i would like to have explodedveiws of other Kato Locos like f7s,RSC-2s and others.
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My guess is that the light board in green in basically the shape of the EM-13 Kato style decoder.
Given the multiple split frames, I think the top full length frame halves give you a connection to the motors, while the separate split frames holding each driver set are for track power. They must be electrically isolated, no?
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I just saw this in my inbox tonight. I looked at the parts diagram and said some expletives :D It would take me days to put that back together!!!
So whoever buys it DON'T bloody drop it!
Beautifully crafted - I'm glad I don't model UP and don't want or need it having said that why am I buying UP Gas Turbines :o
As I see it, it will be much easier to tear down and put together than any other previously made Big Boy (both plastic and brass). Have you looked at the parts diagrams for Athearn Big Boy? Ok, the old Rivarossi would be easier to deal with, but it is rather crude by today's standard.
I had to fix the front headlight on the Athearn model and I had to pretty much tear down the entire loco apart (including prying off some details on the front that are glued on). You shoudl heard the explatives I used during that job.
While Kato locos often look like complex puzzles, once you figure out the puzzle and assembly order, all the parts go together easily and have perfect fit. NO GLUE anywhere!! Awesome!
And if you drop that loco and some assemblies come apart, I suspect they will just snap back in.
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My guess is that the light board in green in basically the shape of the EM-13 Kato style decoder.
Given the multiple split frames, I think the top full length frame halves give you a connection to the motors, while the separate split frames holding each driver set are for track power. They must be electrically isolated, no?
Those split frames in each engine holding the driver bearings (as as I see powering the motors) would somehow need to be electrically connected to each other, and to the drawbar for electrical pickup. Since both engine "units" are floating and pivoting within the loco, to me the long split frame in the top of the boiler is what connects both engines electrically. But I could be wrong. It would be nice to have the model at hand. I'll be looking to pick one of those locos up to dissect it.
The headlight circuit board seems to be an item specifically designed for the task. It just holds the LED, diode and a capacitor. while it looks similar to the forked Kato branded decoder, it is much smaller and narrower (it fits in the space between the leading truck wheels)
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Retracted.
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Love the clear tie track.
Same, pretty cool.
You know, that should be the universal "pre-production-model" track. Any type of rolling stock....locos, freight cars, passenger....if the ties are clear, that means pre-production. That would sure save lots of "premature e-proclamations" on forums. :trollface: 8)
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Where are you finding the parts diagrams,i would like to have explodedveiws of other Kato Locos like f7s,RSC-2s and others.
For the BigBoy, FEF-3 and GS-4 they are on each loco's product page. I took a quick look at the PA-1 and F7 pages and they are not there. For much older models the parts store sells a booket with parts diagrams for locos up to 2002 (Look in N-Scale --> General Use). I'm sure that updated diagrams for newer DCC ready F7 and others won't be in it. I do no know where links to them would be.
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It would be nice to have the model at hand. I'll be looking to pick one of those locos up to dissect it.
We now have Pete Miranda :D :D, Disassembler extraordinaire, Now all Pete needs to do is alter his signature line to "please make an Atlantic" :D :D
Just messing with ya!!
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We now have Pete Miranda :D :D, Disassembler extraordinaire,
I resemble that remark, but it would have to be Pete Mirandski! :D It is an honor being compared to Victor and his mechanical aptitude. :ashat:
Now all Pete needs to do is alter his signature line to "please make an Atlantic" :D :D
Just messing with ya!!
No need for that signature. I already have my Atlantic!
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/3/2700-071117163744-30331805.jpeg)
And have disassembled it. ;)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/3/2700-071117163747-30391535.jpeg)
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After looking at the hi-res photos of Kato's Big Boy and perusing the exploded view drawings, there are some things I'll comment on.
First, I have no idea why anybody would be unhappy with Kato choosing Soundtraxx Tsunami as its Big Boy sound decoder. Maybe it's not quite as good from a "running" standpoint as the ESU Loksound decoder, but the difference is minuscule...I mean MINUSCULE. However, the difference in sound is not minuscule, with the Tsunami's with their built-in frequency equalizer and sound files sounding much better than Loksound. However, both companies now have new soundfiles so I'm not able to compare them...maybe Loksound's have improved...especially the Big Boy, FEF-3, Challenger whistles...which are the same on the prototypes. I fiddled around with my Tsunami replacements for the original MRC POS sound decoders in the first runs of Athearn Challengers and Big Boys, and I couldn't be happier with the way they run or the way they sound...especially the whistle, the equalized chuff, and the rod clank...which is very prominent on all three prototypes...and distinctive. So, congratulations Kato on choosing the best DCC steam sound decoder.
How this engine is going to be DCC-ized is an interesting subject, but I have a suspicion that the drawings we are all squinting at are incomplete. I'm ordering mine with DCC sound pre-installed, so I'm not gonna worry too much about it.
Looks like much of the tender on the Big Boy is exactly the same as the FEF-3 tender...which is only logical since the same could be said for tenders of prototype Big Boys, Late Challengers and FEF-2's and 3's.
As I strongly suspected, this first run will specifically be the restored 4014...which is a logical choice, since it will pull the exact same cars as the Kato 844 & 8444 has pulled in her modern excursion career, with the same water bottles behind her, most of which, if not all of which, Kato has. This will be good for those who don't model UP, but who want a logical reason to have a Big Boy run on their layout...and will be excellent for Kato sales also.
From reading the script of the official release literature in English, it appears that "the 4014" (in bold letters) is specifically being released in its present restored condition. This leads me to believe that there is a glimmer of hope that earlier versions of Big Boy are cooking in the Kato kitchen. After looking at the exploded view, it would indeed be feasible to produce a backdated main boiler, cab, tender shell, coal bunker, tender shell front, firebox sides with ash pans or separate ash pans, cylinder/valve fronts (although these were prototypical for Big Boys...they just got randomly damaged and removed during Big Boy's service life)....hmmm...I think that's about it...except for relocating the aftercoolers on the pilot to the pilot railings for first run prototypes...the ones on the model now work for all Big Boys after the late 1940's.
Some things that are really great about what I see in the detailing of the model. Kato has taken the time to add lube lines, brackets, pipe, pipe fittings, electrical conduit, junction boxes, sand lines, lubrication lines, bolt-head details, brake detailing and newly added boiler cladding features to this model to make much of it much more detailed than any other Big Boy model in N-scale ever produced, including N-scale brass versions. This includes such obvious things as the brake cylinders on the trailing trucks as well as the proper external brake linkages. This minor detail has been omitted on Brass Big Boys, and the Athearn Big Boys, but was included (very poorly done) on Rivarossi Big Boys. Kato also included the tiny lube lines on both the trailing truck frame and the tender lead truck...details I added when I superdetailed my Key Big Boy years ago.
Although the pilot railings look a bit oversized, I think they're right on diameter-wise. Also, the hand-rails alongside the boiler look a bit oversized...just a bit...BUT, I noticed this on the Kato FEF-3 about the tender grabs on top too, but when I looked closely at photos and at the real deal sitting behind the fence at the Utah State Railway Museum in Ogden, Kato's versions look very close to being the right diameter. When I look at prototype photos and compare what Kato has done on their Big Boy, I think they're right on. Gotta remember that the hand-rails attached to the boiler on Big Boys are also electrical conduit, so they are a bit bigger than plain old grabs are. Interestingly, Kato has cast on a junction box near the front of that very hand-rail which prototypically would have had an electrical cable exiting it to enter another junction box attached to the smokebox...which Kato has also included in the cast-on details of their smokebox!
Speaking of hand-rails...the pilot hand-rails are exquisite on the Kato model, with the proper angle braces and pipe fittings modeled. Athearn just didn't do the angle braces on theirs at all, which always brought a frown to my face. I'll be ordering enough of the Kato pilot hand-rails to adapt them to my Athearn Big Boys, all of which do not sport the hand-rail mounted aftercoolers because of the era of my layout.
Up top near the cab are two steam dynamos, exactly what is on the restored 4014, as opposed to a single dynamo on in-service Big Boys. The exploded view shows these as being integral with the boiler casting...hmmm...is the boiler casting actually a 3D printed part? I don't see how the dynamos could be integrally injection molded with the rest of the boiler...or maybe the drawing isn't complete yet.
Details on the cab top are for the restored 4014 with antennae details.
The flanges on the Kato Big Boy are pretty lo-pro, and the drivers and wheels look to be very close to prototype diameters. After looking closely at the Big Boy's lead truck and admiring the exterior contour of the wheels, I noticed that in a direct side-view, that Kato has bothered to include fine-looking cast-on retaining chains from the lead truck frame to the underside of the pilot...just like the prototype. Also, I can see lots of under-frame detailing on each engine, as well as excellent brake hangers and shoes as well as sand-pipes. Just excellent.
Although I'm not a fan of the silvery plastic running gear parts, at least Kato elected to make them silvery...as opposed to Athearn who leaves them black. I can paint them up to look pretty close to that odd prototype warm/silver appearance, and I'll do the same on the Kato Big Boy.
WOW!...the mechanical oiler on the front engine has its sagging chain modeled! And, blow-down pipe and muffler in front of the fireman's side rear piston/cylinder cover. AND pipes everywhere under the side running boards as well as running down the rear of the firebox...which has no ash-pans...totally correct for the oil-fired restored 4014.
I have to comment on Kato taking the extra effort to get rid of that dead-air space that always is between the bottom of N-scale fireboxes and the trailing truck...which is NOT anywhere prototypical since the trailing truck was there to support the rear of the engine...not just be dragged along for cosmetic effect. Their FEF-3 is also detailed/engineered to not have daylight between the firebox and trailing truck...somebody at Kato is giving modelers something extra that many probably don't even notice.
The piping under the cab looks extremely well done...as do the water supply lines cast on to the tender's lead truck frame, which are very visible in the side view....excellent! Oh, and I should also note the near prototypical distance between the front of the tender and the engine cab. With Kato's articulation of the engine as well as the tender's frame, a huge-o space between cab and tender isn't necessary. Kudos!
Speaking of articulation. One of the main problems with viewing N-scale articulated locomotives is that on most, they are articulated with the rear engine also swiveling. This allows them to negotiate small diameter curves, but looks like sh*t...especially because the big steam pipe, taking steam to the front cylinders is completely not connected to the tops of the rear engine's cylinders...leaving a huge, and very noticeable gap there...even in 3/4 views...front and back. Kato thought about this (obviously) and attached that big pipe on top of the rear engine cylinders, then made a gap directly between that giant pipe fitting and the steam pipes going forward...right where on the prototype there's a slightly smaller adapter pipe. Basically, Kato just eliminated that smaller adapter pipe...so, when viewed from the front and back and in 3/4 views, there is no gap to be seen. A very easy, thoughtful and effective way to minimize the funky appearance of monkey-motion articulation!
Not all is positive however. A major letdown for me was that Kato decided to not make the throttle linkage a separate piece on the engineer's side, if their exploded view drawing is correct. However, I haven't seen any photos of the more complete Kato Big Boy from the engineer's side yet, so maybe they're not showing it because the detailing on that side isn't done yet.
Another minus is the damned silver paint applied to the smokebox. It should be closer to SP Lettering Grey with just a hint of metallic in it as well as the firebox. Can't the paint guys see the photos?????? The photos aren't lying.
In the 3/4 front view hi-res photo, the lettering looks funky. First, it shouldn't be white, it's aluminum...second, the real lettering is also larger and placed differently under the cab and on the sides of the tender...wait a minute....after close inspection, it looks as if the lettering is Photoshopped in on this photo...the giveaway being the nearest numberboard with no ridges between numbers that can be clearly seen in the engineer's side numberboard in the same photo. Okay, I'm going to trust Kato to get it right...the color, the size, the small lettering on the air tanks and low cab, and the position under the cab and on the sides of the tender.
Speaking of numberboards...no grabs on the lower part of the fronts of the numberboards.
Finally, the cab windows and top vent. I have rarely seen a photo of the 4014 (or an in-service Big Boy) with both cab windows shut or the top vent closed while running. Superdetailing my Big Boys always includes opening the cab windows and the top vent...just because it's typical. Kato should have done this since it is so typical of this engine.
All in all, the most detailed, most accurate N-scale model of a Big Boy ever produced. Not perfect, but excellent indeed. If past performance is any indicator, then it will pull like no other N-scale engine ever produced too...which I hope is a portent of a correctly detailed in-service era version in the next run to pull long freights instead of passenger cars.
I've changed my mind, and will be purchasing one...to see how easily I can modify it to comply with my 1947 thru 1956 era.
Well done Kato...exceedingly well done!
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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Anyway, as I don't have a BIG BOY yet, I placed an order for one.
I have a feeling that this one will be an absolut belter!
Thomas :)
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As a side note, Plaza Japan notes that they cannot ship any UP items to the US...just in case anyone was planning to get BigBoys, excursion cars, etc. from Japan. Don't know if is a Kato-emposed restriction or market allocation consideration.
The advanced photos of the loco look so much better than the prior versions. I wish them with the project and hope it will clear the decks for broader projects which have been held up for too darn long!!
Charlie Vlk
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The analog version has no price change .
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I will order one. I think Kato is right on the money with their detail level. I can pick one of their engines up without worrying about breaking anything, and I'm not paying extra money for detail parts that won't be seen unless there's a derailment.
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I will order one. I think Kato is right on the money with their detail level. I can pick one of their engines up without worrying about breaking anything, and I'm not paying extra money for detail parts that won't be seen unless there's a derailment.
That description of Kato models is right on the money. Perfect! And as always: no-glue assembly, making it easier to service, repair or customize.
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Pre-orders are $499 street price for the DCC sound version. Usually I'll do my own installs but this one might be the exception.
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Yeah, Train World is showing pre-order prices of $279/$349/$499.
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A video of the Big Boy running for anyone interested. Starts at 12:50.
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A video of the Big Boy running for anyone interested. Starts at 12:50.
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It's a pilot model with incomplete paint and no lettering. But, looks like it runs nice and smooth with no boiler rocking. Absolutely hate the cab overhang on the small curves, but oh well...an obvious marketing necessity.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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It's a pilot model with incomplete paint and no lettering. But, looks like it runs nice and smooth with no boiler rocking. Absolutely hate the cab overhang on the small curves, but oh well...an obvious marketing necessity.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
That's some impressive model train engineering.
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This guys have more pictures
https://aat-net.de/product/new-product-4/
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Outstanding . I am in favor of the double articulation for huge locomotives . Further , I would like to see a N Scale 4-12-2 with articulation like what was done in a larger scale .
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Pretty neat. Visually it’s what I expected.
I will reserve any concern for videos of the Kato Big Boy production model, but hopefully they will do something about the combination levers which flop around like a rubber duck in the video. It’s not just the flopping, but the whole motion of the combination levers is odd. They also look to be plastic, which is disappointing. - Rob
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Pretty neat. Visually it’s what I expected.
I will reserve any concern for videos of the Kato Big Boy production model, but hopefully they will do something about the combination levers which flop around like a rubber duck in the video. It’s not just the flopping, but the whole motion of the combination levers is odd. They also look to be plastic, which is disappointing. - Rob
Part of the valve gear is plastic on all Kato steam locos. Same goes for many other manufacturers,. What bugs me about Kato could be very easily solved. The plastic they use to mold those parts is bluish metallic color (like aluminum, not steel). Adding some gold metallic powder or orange dye to the mix would make the color better matched to the rest of the metal valve gear. Companies like Fleischmann do just that, and it is difficult to distinguish which parts of the valve gear are plastic.
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Here she is pulling 15 pounds and 4 HO well cars. Pretty impressive and check out the drivers slipping independently from each other.
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Reminds me of the Ford commercial where they pull 10 loaded train cars with their electric pick up.
Anytime Kato feels the urge to produce a Santa Fe 4-8-4, I'm in.
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Here is one from instagram chasing its tail.
https://www.instagram.com/reels/audio/114765211612371
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It'd be even funnier if they had it pulling pallets of the other Big Boys available in N scale.
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Reminds me of the Ford commercial where they pull 10 loaded train cars with their electric pick up.
Anytime Kato feels the urge to produce a Santa Fe 4-8-4, I'm in.
Especially now that 2926 is under her own steam again.
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Here is a video showing the Kato Big Boy development:
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That was an interesting video. Thanks Chris!
Now I know the purpose of those two flat discs molded into the "ceiling"of every Kato passenger car body. I had no idea what was their purpose.
Also funny how they called smoke box a "smoke room".
Anyway, the Big Boy is as I expected. The power to each engine's chassis halves (and the motor) is fed from the boiler frame halves through the contacts on the sides of the engines plastic pivot pins. Also unusual are the cone-shaped flywheels (those were clearly shown in the cutaway diagram earlier).
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-010623230930-342211637.jpeg)
It will be interesting how to handle DCC installs with 2 separate "power units" where the motor is connected directly to the frame halves. Doesn't appear like the model is DCC-friendly at all, but Kato will have them available with DCC. Then again, Kato often surprises up with innovative designs.
There are also some unconventional things like movable cylinders.
My Big Boy is in the mail. :)
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But are they in the wild yet where one can corral an engine?
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But are they in the wild yet where one can corral an engine?
Like I mentioned, mine is in the mail (from Hogz).
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But are they in the wild yet where one can corral an engine?
We had 2 show up at the shop last weekend, but they were pre-ordered so they went right back out the door
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On Twitter a few people have them in hand, I'd guess on the other side of the pond.
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Lombard shows 20 in stock.
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I just ordered mine from Lombard. MBK has been very slow to list new releases. Also, the free shipping on big purchases comes with a higher price than several other shops with a better sale price. So they net out within a couple of bucks.
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Lombard's stock went down one more about 10 minutes ago.......
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That was an interesting video. Thanks Chris!
Now I know the purpose of those two flat discs molded into the "ceiling"of every Kato passenger car body. I had no idea what was their purpose.
Also funny how they called smoke box a "smoke room".
Anyway, the Big Boy is as I expected. The power to each engine's chassis halves (and the motor) is fed from the boiler frame halves through the contacts on the sides of the engines plastic pivot pins. Also unusual are the cone-shaped flywheels (those were clearly shown in the cutaway diagram earlier).
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-010623230930-342211637.jpeg)
It will be interesting how to handle DCC installs with 2 separate "power units" where the motor is connected directly to the frame halves. Doesn't appear like the model is DCC-friendly at all, but Kato will have them available with DCC. Then again, Kato often surprises up with innovative designs.
There are also some unconventional things like movable cylinders.
My Big Boy is in the mail. :)
It is dcc friendly, Kato is doing factory dcc with these instead of third party installs via Kobo or US partners according to Kato USA. It appears to me the coreless motors are wired to the mechanism and are electrically isolated via a plastic mounting frame. Wiring the two motors in parallel shouldn't be a problem for most decoder's power wise but bemf and chuff rate might have some difficulty. And the cone shaped fly wheel is to allow the mechanism to turn inside the metal boiler frame with out touching it.
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The motors have little sprung contacts that fit into slots on the frame. Just pull them out and the motor is isolated.
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The motors have little sprung contacts that fit into slots on the frame. Just pull them out and the motor is isolated.
Yes, but one of the great things about Kato models is that most have totally wire-free construction. What you describe sounds like wires between the two pivoting engines will have to be ran(then to the decoder) and disguised inside the model. I wonder if Kato made accommodations (some empty space inside) to run the wires? I guess I'll find out soon enough (probably on Monday).
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Unfortunately for those that like that it seems the industry as a whole is moving to wired pickups.
Though atleast with Atlas, not sure if Kato is doing the same, the wires go into friction fit ferrules into the frame as opposed anything that may require a soldering iron to remove on most models.
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Maybe this has been answered before, but...is KATO releasing their 4014 in three stages? First, DCC-Friendly, Second, DCC with no sound, and Third, DCC Sound?
Are any of your 4014's you've actually got in your hands equipped with DCC or DCC sound? Or are they all DCC-Friendly only?
If KATO is releasing them in stages, anybody here privy to what that schedule is supposed to be?
Just curious, and I don't want to read through all the posts to see if I can find an answer...
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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Maybe this has been answered before, but...is KATO releasing their 4014 in three stages? First, DCC-Friendly, Second, DCC with no sound, and Third, DCC Sound?
Are any of your 4014's you've actually got in your hands equipped with DCC or DCC sound? Or are they all DCC-Friendly only?
If KATO is releasing them in stages, anybody here privy to what that schedule is supposed to be?
Just curious, and I don't want to read through all the posts to see if I can find an answer...
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
Yes, they are being released in the order you described. Late June for DCC and late July for sound. Also, according to KatoUSA the DCC installs will be done at the factory.
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Yes, they are being released in the order you described. Late June for DCC and late July for sound. Also, according to KatoUSA the DCC installs will be done at the factory.
@Jbub Thanks! Both me and Nate thank you for the prompt reply!
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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I do not know why then last month I received a notice from KATO that the item I had reserved was shipping and then a notice from UPS that a package had been sent to me. Pretty sure I ordered either a DCC Big Boy or one with sound. I have never received a package from KATO. Go figure. Thanks ! Nate Goodman. (Nato).
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I do not know why then last month I received a notice from KATO that the item I had reserved was shipping and then a notice from UPS that a package had been sent to me. Pretty sure I ordered either a DCC Big Boy or one with sound. I have never received a package from KATO. Go figure. Thanks ! Nate Goodman. (Nato).
When UPS sends you shipping notice, isn't the tracking number included? If so, you could track the package. Also, if you ordered directly from Kato, don't you have Kato order number? You could just call Kato to resolve the mystery.
Back in January-February there was also some confusion about Big Boys from Athearn and BLI, you ordered from Hogz.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=55480.msg762287#msg762287 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=55480.msg762287#msg762287)
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=55322.msg762176#msg762176 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=55322.msg762176#msg762176)
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=55322.msg762067#msg762067 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=55322.msg762067#msg762067)
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=55322.msg762047#msg762047 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=55322.msg762047#msg762047)
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My Kato Big Boy arrived in the mail today, but I will likely not able to do any extensive disassembly until the weekend.
One thing that looks odd to me is the rather shiny finish. Not glossy, but not satin either. But the recently rebuilt real 4014 does have a similar sheen. The smoke box seems too silver. Maybe it looked like that fresh out of the shop.
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My Kato Big Boy arrived in the mail today, but I will likely not able to do any extensive disassembly until the weekend.
One thing that looks odd to me is the rather shiny finish. Not glossy, but not satin either. But the recently rebuilt real 4014 does have a similar sheen. The smoke box seems too silver. Maybe it looked like that fresh out of the shop.
Looking forward to your product review.
Are you planning on installing aftermarket dcc sound?
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Looking forward to your product review.
Are you planning on installing aftermarket dcc sound?
Yes, I'm thinking about it. I have very little hobby time until the second half of the upcoming weekend, but like a drug addict, last night I couldn't stop myself from sneaking into my workshop for about 30 minutes, and peeking into the model.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-080623171024-343041824.jpeg)
Not fully disassembled yet. Like most large steam loco models, it's like a complex Chinese Japanese puzzle! Lots of hidden latches and screws which all have to be dealt with in a specific sequence. While by now I fully expect it from Kato, I'm still amazed at the fine quality and detail of the molded parts, and their perfect fit. Everything snaps together without any glue. It should be even more fun trying to reassemble it. :)
Quick test run (on a piece of track) showed that the mechanism is very smooth and the flywheels work really well. While Kato did add some channels for wires in the frame halves, it is not very DCC-friendly, with two articulated motors, and the headlight way out on the pilot.
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Yes, I'm thinking about it. I have very little hobby time until the second half of the upcoming weekend, but like a drug addict, last night I couldn't stop myself from sneaking into my workshop for about 30 minutes, and peeking into the model.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-080623171024-343041824.jpeg)
Not fully disassembled yet. Like most large steam loco models, it's like a complex Chinese Japanese puzzle! Lots of hidden latches and screws which all have to be dealt with in a specific sequence. While by now I fully expect it from Kato, I'm still amazed at the fine quality and detail of the molded parts, and their perfect fit. Everything snaps together without any glue. It should be even more fun trying to reassemble it. :)
Quick test run (on a piece of track) showed that the mechanism is very smooth and the flywheels work really well. While Kato did add some channels for wires in the frame halves, it is not very DCC-friendly, with two articulated motors, and the headlight way out on the pilot.
Wow, in about thirty minutes you got much further along than I would expected.
The reason for the question is I am on the fence on whether to purchase the DCC ready version, or hold out for one with factory installed sound.
Given your DCC expertise, I was wondering what advantages there are in using an aftermarket buyer installed sound decoder?
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Wow, in about thirty minutes you got much further along than I would expected.
The reason for the question is I am on the fence on whether to purchase the DCC ready version, or hold out for one with factory installed sound.
Given your DCC expertise, I was wondering what advantages there are in using an aftermarket buyer installed sound decoder?
I would argue that "DCC ready" is not very good description for the DC version. I would cal it DCC unfriendly (for an average modeler).
If by aftermarket you mean DYI install, the advantage is that you can choose the brand of decoder you like. With Kato factory-installed DCC you are limited to whatever decoder brand they use (since Kato doesn't make their own decoders). They will be using Soundreaxx decoder in this model.
I don't know how skilled you are in DCC installs, but from what learned so far, this model IMO is not going to be the easiest to convert to DCC (even the disassembly is quite complicated).
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I would argue that "DCC ready" is not very good description for the DC version. I would cal it DCC unfriendly (for an average modeler).
If by aftermarket you mean DYI install, the advantage is that you can choose the brand of decoder you like. With Kato factory-installed DCC you are limited to whatever decoder brand they use (since Kato doesn't make their own decoders). They will be using Soundreaxx decoder in this model.
I don't know how skilled you are in DCC installs, but from what learned so far, this model IMO is not going to be the easiest to convert to DCC (even the disassembly is quite complicated).
Not skilled in DCC installations, based upon your comments and photo of a partially disassembled Kato Big Boy, I'm going to pass on the DCC unfriendly version a wait until the factory sound equipped models arrive.
Thanks for your candid response.
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Well Pete you are becoming The Railwires version of Victor Miranda! :D :D
We'll have to drop the Peteski and rename you to something like Peteskiranda :D :D
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@peteski too bad you are not in Japan around the end of this month.
We are planning a vacation to Japan this Fall and my one requisite is to visit Kato Japan at their Hobby Center in Tokyo. While snooping around yesterday to figure out location, opening times, etc. I stumbled upon a special event they are having. A two-day event to assemble your own Big Boy to take home! :o Includes "special tweezers" (hmmm, what is this for?) for assembly and a factory tour of where it is made. You will be guided by the factory manager on how to assemble it.
Not cheap (110,000 Yen which is about $788 USD but you get a $400 loco to take home) for the event but oh boy the total immersive experience! :lol:
(You may have to tell your browser to translate to English)
https://www.hobbycenterkato.com/news-1/%E6%8C%91%E6%88%A6%E8%80%85%E6%B1%82%E3%82%80%EF%BC%81bigboy%E7%B5%84%E7%AB%8B%E9%81%93%E5%A0%B4%EF%BC%81
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I'm going to start a GoFundMe so I can take that trip... Anyone wanna chip in? I currently have.... $0 toward my goal.
:D
I did receive mine today and I don't remember seeing it this glossy back when it was in Jefferson City. I don't dare try and weather it though.
One thing I'm curious about though, I've seen the second set of drivers (firebox) stop moving and the entire locomotive grinds to a halt even while the pilot drivers are still spinning.
Has anyone else seen this yet?
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I'm going to start a GoFundMe so I can take that trip... Anyone wanna chip in? I currently have.... $0 toward my goal.
:D
I did receive mine today and I don't remember seeing it this glossy back when it was in Jefferson City. I don't dare try and weather it though.
One thing I'm curious about though, I've seen the second set of drivers (firebox) stop moving and the entire locomotive grinds to a halt even while the pilot drivers are still spinning.
Has anyone else seen this yet?
Each powered 4-axle set is called an "engine" There is front engine (right behind the leading or pilot truck), and the rear engine is right behind that (and right in front of the trailign truck).
The careful design of each engine is such that most of the weight that each engine support is over the traction-tire driver. I guess if one of the engines stalls, it will bring the loco to a halt, even if the other engine is still running. Each engine picks up power through all the drivers, and the locos frames connects both engines electrically. You describe a problem with the rear engine which is likely caused by either mechanical bind, or the rear engine's motor feed wires getting disconnected from the frame.
Curious about what do you have to do to make the loco run again? Also, how often does that happen?
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@peteski thanks for the heads up. Definitely did not know that they were called engines... :facepalm:
Honestly I'm not 100% sure if this is caused by the superelevated curves that I have but I'm sure it could be.
Since it's DC I just lower the voltage and ramp it up relatively quickly. That so far has worked. Another time I sent out a slower locomotive to bump it and that has worked too.
I'll add that it's only ran on the outer loop which is equivalent to 15" radius.
I really only bought this as kind of a display since it is way out of my era, and saw it in person. So it probably won't ever see the rails that often.
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@peteski thanks for the heads up. Definitely did not know that they were called engines... :facepalm:
Honestly I'm not 100% sure if this is caused by the superelevated curves that I have but I'm sure it could be.
Since it's DC I just lower the voltage and ramp it up relatively quickly. That so far has worked. Another time I sent out a slower locomotive to bump it and that has worked too.
I'll add that it's only ran on the outer loop which is equivalent to 15" radius.
I really only bought this as kind of a display since it is way out of my era, and saw it in person. So it probably won't ever see the rails that often.
That is odd (especially for Kato, since I suspect they did some serious testing of this all-new design mechanism before the production run). It is actually designed to run on Kato Unitrack's tight curves (and I assume their super-elevated curves). To be honest, this is probably the first ever mass produced N scale articulated steam engine using this type of dual-motor mechanism, so it is all new to me too.
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Well I will soon see how difficult a sound install is. I have one on its way to me. Going with an SoundTraxx decoder.
Hope to see the loco soon.
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Well I will soon see how difficult a sound install is. I have one on its way to me. Going with an SoundTraxx decoder.
Hope to see the loco soon.
We'll see how you approach this - I have a a plan too. :D
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Well the Big Boy showed up here Saturday.
Got it unpacked but not out of its card board box yet. Sort of wish they would change that!
I have a Athearn Challenger torn apart doing a up date with a SoundTraxx Tsunami2 .
The worst thing about this up date was the headlight. The old light was a bulb, changed that to a LED.
Getting the old bulb out was no fun, I think they glued it in . Had to mill, out the wires and the glass bulb.
Want to get the Athearn Challenger back in one piece before I start working on the Big Boy.
First look at the Big Boy was looking for wires between the loco & tender.
I only see two brass wires in the draw bar.
Off to test run on DC.
Want to make sure there are no problems before I start the DCC sound install.
Will be back
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I am sure enjoying mine! I just keep running it!
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Well a test run has been made. The Big Boy runs so quite that I lost track of it several times on the layout.
Could not hear it running.
Now the fun part-getting inside to see how to convert to DCC with sound. The tender- no -problem it is just a large empty box.
The loco has has Peteski would say more pieces that a 1000 piece puzzle .
I got most of it done but I am hung up with the front engine assemble . I could not get the center exhaust pipe to release from the boiler.
You have any ideas Peteski?
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I have found that I do not need to remove the front engine to do the DCC conversion.
There are two wires that come from the motor, 1 red & 1 black.
These are soldered to a small phosphors bronze strips that are pressed into the two halves of the frames.
The frame halves are powered up via the drivers.
So I have unsoldered the motor wires from the strips.
Soldered two wires to the strips for rail power, I spliced a wire to each of the motor wires ( 1 red & 1 black).
These wires will attach to the rear engine strips making the front engine & rear engine wired in parallel.
I will attach wires from the rear engine and run them through the draw bar into the tender.
I have yet to figure how to wire the head light.
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Fun, isn't it? :)
The center pipe is just snap fit on the bottom end. I was also very worried when I got to that part of the disassembly.
I have some ideas about the front health (since I have the loco totally apart). It will involve dual-diode component soldered onto the modified light board (for "blue" voltage), and only single (negative) wire to run back to the tender.
You did isolate the motor wires from each engine assembly, correct? The motor wires are stiff - I'm going to snip the off close to the motor and replace them with more flexible thinner insulation wires (likely ESU decoder wires).
Kato did mold channels on the top of the boiler frame for routing wires (because there is no clearance between the shell and the frame. That's where I'll route the motor and headlight wires. I will also install a small custom-made PC board which will be a junction between the wires in the loco and the harness leading to the tender.
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Well, I did not tear mine apart has much has you have. There are enough pieces already in little storage boxes.
I have the motors isolated (unsoldered them from the frame strips)
Might have dig into it farther to figure the headlight out.
I too am using ESU #36 wire about the smallest i could find.
On the headlight, are not the two rods attached to the top of the shell the H/L power? they are powered by the pivot point on the rear engine at the top.
Think I will have it running this afternoon.
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The headlight PC board is plugged into the end of the front engine's split frame. Very little clearance all around it.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-270623133555-34503990.jpeg)
I'm really surprised that in this day and age Kato did not design this model a but more DCC friendly. But then again, it seems that Japanese modelers are not as into DCC as modeler's elsewhere. Kato Japan still doesn't sell models with factory installed decoders. All the installs are done after the fact. Some models are DCC ready for those unusual decoders which plug into the model using proprietare design contacts.
As advanced as their shell and mechanisms designs are, they are way behind on command control technology.
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The headlight PC board is plugged into the end of the front engine's split frame. Very little clearance all around it.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-270623133555-34503990.jpeg)
I'm really surprised that in this day and age Kato did not design this model a but more DCC friendly. But then again, it seems that Japanese modelers are not as into DCC as modeler's elsewhere. Kato Japan still doesn't sell models with factory installed decoders. All the installs are done after the fact. Some models are DCC ready for those unusual decoders which plug into the model using proprietare design contacts.
As advanced as their shell and mechanisms designs are, they are way behind on command control technology.
So I'm trying to figure out how all this works before I tear apart the front porch to get to the light board. Does the screw that's accessed above the pilot truck go into the mounting hole between the lightboard legs? If that screw is removed, does the entire steam cylinder assembly come off? Also the interesting thing about the lack of DCC friendliness of the loco is, this is the first, from the factory, with DCC sound installed. No Kobo, no 3rd party installation except for those who do their own and sell them. This is from Kato USA
https://www.youtube.com/live/bp_k6ZEhJNE?feature=share&t=949 The discussion about it starts right after where the video starts from the link.
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Regardless of what the Kato USA rep states, even if done by Kato Japan workers, to me that is not a what I would consider a "true" factory install. Maybe the DCC units will have different (factory made) PC board for sound and maybe another additional PC board elsewhere (in addition to the actual decoder). Plus lots of loose wires. I just don't see any other way to tackle this install. Like I mentioned, Kato made some minimal allowances for DCC-ing the model, but the install will likely still be quite messy (and difficult to do any maintenance on it). I hope they prove me wrong (but I won't buy another loco with DCC/Sound installed just to see how they did it). Hopefully someone who did buy one of those units will show some internal details of the install.
The screw hole in the above photo is for a screw that holds the entire pilot (its "spine").
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-270623171458-345041996.jpeg)
The pilot truck has to be removed first. Pop the wheelsets out, then rotate the truck's frame 90 degrees. It will then come out its pivot.
The pivot piece (shown on the bottom of the photo is snapped into the pilot's spine. It has to be pried out. Once it is out, the screw can be removed and the pilot can then be tilted up (at the front) and pulled forward to remove it. The light board will stay inserted in the frame,
Of course the cylinders will have to be removed before removing the pilot assy.
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Looking at those two photos of the light board it looks like the board is touching both frame halves?
Would not this cause a short?
I was going to more work on it today, but Doctors appointments got in the way.
Tomorow will be another day.
Any one figure out what the wire rods do that are in the shell at the very top?
They make power contact with the two frame halves via the cone shaped part on the rear engine Asy.
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Looking at those two photos of the light board it looks like the board is touching both frame halves?
Would not this cause a short?
I was going to more work on it today, but Doctors appointments got in the way.
Tomorow will be another day.
Any one figure out what the wire rods do that are in the shell at the very top?
They make power contact with the two frame halves via the cone shaped part on the rear engine Asy.
I thought the same but after close examination I found out that there is very small gap over the PC board in that area, so there is no short. Very, very weird design.
Not sure what you mean by rods. Each engine's chassis has a plastic pivot post on top. On each side of the post are short formed metal rods. Is that what you are describing? Those rods are to electrically connect the engine's right and left frame halves to the boiler chassis halves (through springy leaves in the chassis. That is how all the drivers supply power to the entire model. Electrically each engine can run interdependently if placed separately on the track (since the motor is also connected to the engine's frame halves). But when the engines are installed in the boiler frame, it all gets connected electrically. That's how the drawbar will receive power from all 8 drivers (even thought it only connects to the rear engine). itis a quite unconventional design. Leave it to Kato.
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I have one of these pigs here.
I'll eventually figure out how to install ESU in it and already have some rough ideas. Just slammed with other projects first. I remember looking at the front light PCB on the 3d rendering thinking 'well that's going to be fun'...I am actually sort of curious how they're going to install either basic dcc or soundtraxx in these. I would almost bet money there will be no provision to control the forward headlight via dcc ala EM13 decoder like they did with the GS4. (and later their 'Kobo' 58731 installs after I left. That was a travesty they charged a premium price for the GS4's with LokSound yet didn't wire in independant headlight control.)
I spent years trying to convince Hiroshi that they needed to make models more DCC and sound friendly and in one of the early meetings over this thing long before it was ever announced I brought up my concerns over not being DCC friendly.
In retrospect, was truly a bizaare company to work for. Lots of circular logic and self licking ice cream cones at play all while ignoring useful input and feedback both from both staff and customers that didn't support whatever the company view was.
As Charlie Vlk used to say about Kato...snatching defeat away from the jaws of victory.
Enjoy!
Kelley.
www.dufordmodelworks.com
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I have one of these pigs here.
I'll eventually figure out how to install ESU in it and already have some rough ideas. Just slammed with other projects first. I remember looking at the front light PCB on the 3d rendering thinking 'well that's going to be fun'...I am actually sort of curious how they're going to install either basic dcc or soundtraxx in these. I would almost bet money there will be no provision to control the forward headlight via dcc ala EM13 decoder like they did with the GS4. (and later their 'Kobo' 58731 installs after I left. That was a travesty they charged a premium price for the GS4's with LokSound yet didn't wire in independant headlight control.)
I spent years trying to convince Hiroshi that they needed to make models more DCC and sound friendly and in one of the early meetings over this thing long before it was ever announced I brought up my concerns over not being DCC friendly.
In retrospect, was truly a bizaare company to work for. Lots of circular logic and self licking ice cream cones at play all while ignoring useful input and feedback both from both staff and customers that didn't support whatever the company view was.
As Charlie Vlk used to say about Kato...snatching defeat away from the jaws of victory.
Enjoy!
Kelley.
www.dufordmodelworks.com
Yes, this is a weird one for sure. To be honest, this entire dual motro design makes no sense to me, but whatever.
I also had to scratch my head on their Charger design: They made room for the speaker in the fuel tank, even molded open grille in the tank, but made no provisions (like channels or grooves) for running the speaker wires to the top of the chassis. The light conduits are also sort of designed to have the ditch lights separately illuminated separate from the headlight (if a plug-n-play decoder board had 3 LEDs on the front end). Makes no sense. Japanese sure have different culture - some good, and some weird, compared to the rest of the world.
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Yes, this is a weird one for sure. To be honest, this entire dual motro design makes no sense to me, but whatever.
I also had to scratch my head on their Charger design: They made room for the speaker in the fuel tank, even molded open grille in the tank, but made no provisions (like channels or grooves) for running the speaker wires to the top of the chassis. The light conduits are also sort of designed to have the ditch lights separately illuminated separate from the headlight (if a plug-n-play decoder board had 3 LEDs on the front end). Makes no sense. Japanese sure have different culture - some good, and some weird, compared to the rest of the world.
Oddly enough, the push for a speaker housings on the N scale Charger was because they were paying me lots as a contractor to machine frames and install ESU for Kobo equipped units so that was designed in on new models as a time saving measure. Of course, I left for greener pastures before that model came out. That would have saved me loads of time.
You can actually run speaker wires up between the motor and front flywheel. I've done lots of them that way and it fits like a charm. As for the nesting of light pipes, on the bright side, it makes it simple to clip and heat shrink wired 0402 SMLED's to the ends for alternating ditchlights and red marker lights.
Anywhoo....enjoy!
Kelley.
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I also had to scratch my head on their Charger design: They made room for the speaker in the fuel tank, even molded open grille in the tank, but made no provisions (like channels or grooves) for running the speaker wires to the top of the chassis. The light conduits are also sort of designed to have the ditch lights separately illuminated separate from the headlight (if a plug-n-play decoder board had 3 LEDs on the front end). Makes no sense. Japanese sure have different culture - some good, and some weird, compared to the rest of the world.
In fact there seems to be a slot on either side of the frame for routing speaker wires - just forward of the radiator details. Not sure if they were designed with that in mind though...
[attachimg=1]
Now back to the Big Boy... Still holding back on ordering one as to the (complete) lack of DCC friendliness.
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I did not pre-order, preferring to see one in person first, but local hobby shops here in Toronto do not yet have any on the shelf (reportedly “inbound “).
The only dcc/sound version I would be interested in would be retrofitting ESU. Reading all of the above, there appears to be a lot of uncertainty around the viability of custom installs with this beast, but if anyone can do it, it is Railwire craftspeople … I know you will eventually find & share “a way”!
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Peteski, the two rods are in the very top of the boiler shell. I have figured out that the rods connect the front engine with the rear engine . Right rail & left rail. Knowing this I think I will rewire the way I had done. No need to run a pair of wires from the front engine to the rear engine. With out me removing the front engine I did not realize the front & rear engine were tied together with these rods. Wiring the headlight looks to be a PITA!
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Peteski, the two rods are in the very top of the boiler shell. I have figured out that the rods connect the front engine with the rear engine . Right rail & left rail. Knowing this I think I will rewire the way I had done. No need to run a pair of wires from the front engine to the rear engine. With out me removing the front engine I did not realize the front & rear engine were tied together with these rods. Wiring the headlight looks to be a PITA!
Rods? That is a diecast metal split-frame chassis in the boiler. It (along with the plastic boiler) provided pivot for the engines, and provides electrical contact for both engines (so you have all the drivers picking up track power). Yes, you need to isolate both motors from their corresponding split sub-frames. As you keep discovering, this is an unconventional design.
This is what the "rods" frames look like. I suspect that you haven't yet fully disassembled the boiler area.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-280623143049-345072140.jpeg)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/34/2700-280623143049-345051585.jpeg)
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You are right I have not torn mine apart has much has you have.
I am not sure what you mean about isolating the motors. They must have some sort of insulation on the metal case of the motor.
I checked and there is no connection between the two.
I just ran wires between the two motors and then to the decoder.
Figured that with both the red & black wires removed from frame contact the motor is good to go.
I got the headlight board out and have it modified so I can control the H/L with the decoder.
I cut a small gap into the H/L board on the left side, then soldered a small wire to the pad just in front of the left side contact strip on the board. I also put a small piece of Kapton tape at the front of the board on the right rail contact.
Looks to me they (Kato) made the frame just a bit thinner on the frame that comes from the left frame over the board.
I found that if I pushed up on the board it would short. Now to test run.
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I guess I misunderstood you Jerry. Sounds like you handled wiring the the motors correctly. When you have the model fullt disassembled you will see that Kato provided channels in that long metal chassis to run the wires on top of the chassis from the front motor and headlight. Not sure how you are running those wires when the chassis is no fully exposed.
As for the light board, yes Kato made the frame thinner so the left frame (which extends to the right side) does not short out to the right side contact pad. I mentioned that earlier. But yes, if you push the light board up, it will short out the right and left frames. Again, strange design.
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After I found this thread during a Interweb search, I joined the forum for more insight on converting my Kato Big Boy to DCC.
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It's going back together. I have the front H/L working & the wiring complete in the locomotive.
I did a test run with a non-sound decoder just to check things out.
I had to pick up a decoder to get the latest Tsunami2 decoder heavy steam this decoder has a sound file made from the 4014 has of late.
Tomorow should let me start putting parts back on.
I have to run my wiring along the draw bar to get into the tender. Going to put in 6 pin connector to hook to the decoder.
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Nice! I'm planning on a 3-wire connection between tender and loco. I'll also document my install as the time allows.
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Peteski,
What decoder are you planning on using?
My plan was to keep the wiring simple, using only three wires also 2 for the motors and one for the head light. I am very interested in how you route the wires and connectorize the wires. Rumor has it that Kato is using the Soundtraxx TSU-Big Steam decoder.
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I will be posting progress of my light board modification and wire routing as time allows (in a separate thread in the DCC section). My plan is also to add a small PC board at the rear of the loco's frame as it seems Kato actually cast grooves for one. Maybe they will be doing the same on their install. That board will be like junction block for all the wires (and a headlight resistor as there will not be room for one on my modified light board). I'm also planning a 3-pin connector there, so I can still easily disconnect the tender. Those are my preliminary plans - not sure if it will all work out.
I'll likely use ESU decoders as that's what I prefer. While I'm sure some would argue, to me ESU is a major step up from Soundtraxx decoders (in configuration flexibility). Plus I like to minimize the number of sound decoder brands I use.
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As Charlie Vlk used to say about Kato...snatching defeat away from the jaws of victory.
Enjoy!
Kelley.
www.dufordmodelworks.com
I can even read this in his voice! Good memories of Charlie.
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I will be posting progress of my light board modification and wire routing as time allows …………. I'll likely use ESU decoders as that's what I prefer ……………. I like to minimize the number of sound decoder brands I use.
Ahhhh, music to my ears - my thoughts exactly. I may well be visiting my LHS tomorrow to study one of their on-the-shelf DC Big Boys. Which means that I will probably end up being THIS CLOSE to purchasing it. And if I do, it will be with the faith, confidence, and anticipation that Pete and others on this board will show and share how the model can, indeed, be equipped with ESU LokSound.
Pete - you said “decoderS” - are you thinking one decoder per ‘engine’ block? Maybe one sound, one LokPilot?
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Pete - you said “decoderS” - are you thinking one decoder per ‘engine’ block? Maybe one sound, one LokPilot?
LOL! No, I just mentioned that I like ESU decoders in general. I'm also curious how the decoder (any decoder) will handle driving 2 coreless motors.
If I wanted to stuff two decoders in there, they should be sound decoders (since each engine would need its own chuff sounds, and theoretically go in and out of sync).
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I'm also curious how the decoder (any decoder) will handle driving 2 coreless motors.
I am watching this with some interest (mainly curiosity), but the Kato HO P42 has a two motors (one in each truck), and the instructions indicate that a single decoder can handle it, though it seems counter-intuitive to me:
http://www.katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/HO-P42-DCC-Modifications.pdf
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A bit pissed off the lettering isn't silver am I .
Pete proved me wrong later on . Now I am pissed at UP for the white . With Big Boy chalked on the smoke box door my guess now it was to replicate the as delivered paint . But 4000 was the one with the chalked door not 4014 . 4000 had the radiators on the porch and was coal fired , and didn't have front engine chain lubrication . So the white was totally uncalled for by the UP . After all these of trying to get manufactures to follow UP standards of steam locos having Aluminum Leaf lettering , UP does this and sets us back 80 years on that effort . Well they got 4014 resurrected , so I guess I have said too much again .
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If I wanted to stuff two decoders in there, they should be sound decoders (since each engine would need its own chuff sounds, and theoretically go in and out of sync).
I’m wondering if ESU’s 58731 (‘Kato Japan’) might be a good match in this build? Pete, I know you are intimately familiar with this decoder - what do you think?
I have 3 N scale steam locos - Kato GS4, Model Power 4-6-2, Dapol ‘Hall’ class 4-6-0 - each of which I equipped with 58731 tender installs. Although it only has 3 powered outputs, they are usually sufficient for steam lighting applications. The two “legs” can be trimmed back, while still providing sufficient solder pad territory for track and motor leads, which makes for quite a compact little sound decoder.
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I’m wondering if ESU’s 58731 (‘Kato Japan’) might be a good match in this build? Pete, I know you are intimately familiar with this decoder - what do you think?
I have 3 N scale steam locos - Kato GS4, Model Power 4-6-2, Dapol ‘Hall’ class 4-6-0 - each of which I equipped with 58731 tender installs. Although it only has 3 powered outputs, they are usually sufficient for steam lighting applications. The two “legs” can be trimmed back, while still providing sufficient solder pad territory for track and motor leads, which makes for quite a compact little sound decoder.
That decoder is like any other DCC sound decoder, but the size and outline of its circuit board was designed for plug-n-play install in Kato models which have that type of interface (like GS4). This model has no such interface in the tender. The tender is basically identical to the centipede tender that FEF-3 has. Similar width to GS4 tender. So the decoder will fit, but will have to installed by wiring it. Not sure what advantage you have by using this decoder instead of lets say Loksound 5 nano. Looking at the dimensions, nano is smaller than 58731, but thicker. However thickness is not a issue here. There is plenty of room in the tender for a decoder, speaker and likely even a keep-alive module.
Yesterday Tjack757 posted a clear cutaway view of the tender.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54960.0;attach=56590;image)
Plenty of room there. Even more room if you trim those 2 cylindrical protrusions which are securing the metal weight in the center (and glue the weight in).
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A bit pissed off the lettering isn't silver am I .
Richie, this model is made specifically to depict the loco as it appeared in 2019 2021, after it was restored. Was the lettering on that loco silver? If yes, then (going by how meticulous Kato is about every model, and especially this top achievement and pride-and-joy of Mr. Kato) I'm very surprised.
EDIT: I simply read what is written on the locos box. If they did really get the lettering color wrong, then shame on them as the prototype is around, and could have been viewed in-person (or question about the lettering color could have been asked and answered by any of the thousands of people who have seen the loco up close when it was making its rounds through the country).
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That decoder …………. was designed for plug-n-play install in Kato models which have that type of interface (like GS4). This model has no such interface in the tender. So the decoder will fit, but will have to installed by wiring it. Not sure what advantage you have by using this decoder instead of lets say Loksound 5 nano.
Thanks Pete. Yes, I realize how the 58731 is intended for plug-&-play in certain Kato models.
I was trying to point out that it is a handy little decoder in its own right, and can still easily be used where no such P-&-P interface exists (I mentioned the Model Power and Dapol locos as examples).
I’ve installed several Nano’s and Micro’s, those being the wired versions. I suppose that the only advantage with the 58731 is in fact related to wiring - with only 3 outputs, there is less of it!
You only solder in the wire leads you need (and don’t have extra, unused lengths getting in the way, not to mention wasted outputs, as you would with a Nano in a steam loco).
And I’m not sure about this, but seeing as the 58731 is less endowed with outputs and wires, perhaps there are vendors who sell it at a lower price than a Nano or Micro (?)
Anyway, it was just a thought.
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Richie, this model is made specifically to depict the loco as it appeared in 2019, after it was restored. Was the lettering on that loco silver? If yes, then (going by how meticulous Kato is about every model, and especially this top achievement and pride-and-joy of Mr. Kato) I'm very surprised.
I did not know that Pete , thanks . I modified my original post.
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A bit pissed off the lettering isn't silver am I .
Pete proved me wrong later on . Now I am pissed at UP for the white . With Big Boy chalked on the smoke box door my guess now it was to replicate the as delivered paint . But 4000 was the one with the chalked door not 4014 . 4000 had the radiators on the porch and was coal fired , and didn't have front engine chain lubrication . So the white was totally uncalled for by the UP . After all these of trying to get manufactures to follow UP standards of steam locos having Aluminum Leaf lettering , UP does this and sets us back 80 years on that effort . Well they got 4014 resurrected , so I guess I have said too much again .
Sooo...are you saying that the lettering on UP's excursion 4014 is white? I've seen it several times in the flesh, and believe me, I would have noticed if the lettering wasn't Aluminum, since that's one of my main gripes about some model Big Boys and other N-scale UP steam.
Truthfully, it's difficult to tell from photos if the lettering is White or Aluminum. In my photos and videos I took of 4014 and 844 when they were doubleheading to Ogden, in my photos the lettering looks exactly the same on both engines, and I know for a fact that the 844's lettering is Aluminum.
Also of note, is that the paint on the wheel journal covers, which I know to be Aluminum, looks white in my videos and photos...but, I know for a fact that they are Aluminum.
I am surprised that KATO got the lettering wrong as it's pretty common knowledge that UP's Steam Engine lettering is always Aluminum, even if it looks "white" in photos, but it doesn't when seen with the naked eye.
As for the rest of your points, KATO has not created a "Big Boy" in N-scale, but has replicated the restored 4014 in N-scale. Since there are major difference between the restored 4014 and Big Boys in service in the 1940's thru the 1950's, and, since KATO doesn't make any US prototype freight cars (except for a very few generic ones)...I assume this model was conceptualized to be the most accurate model of the restored 4014, and is designed to be perfect for present-day UP Excursion Service, pulling a variety of KATO water bottles and passenger cars...with maybe a shiny KATO 844 FEF-3 double-heading behind it....but not for pulling a long block of PFE reefers.
Since UP is UP, they were not striving for nor is it the Steam Department's obligation to restore their steam engines to original specifications. The 4014 was definitely a rush job, and I was actually surprised that UP had got it running in time for the Sesquicentennial, but upon close inspection, is was pretty obvious that it still needed some work, such as supplying front cylinder covers, and the angles on the boiler covers looked/look "wrong"...because they are much simplified from the original boiler covers.
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Additionally, the tender is 3985's tender, and is not a Big Boy tender, which was deemed to not be restorable in time for the Sesquicentennial. No, Challenger tenders and Big Boy tenders are not the same, although they look similar.
As for historical accuracy, if your layout is running Big Boys in the 1940's thru the 1950's, the KATO model isn't for you. Both the Athearn Big Boy and the BLI Big Boy...not the BLI Excursion 4014, nor their Kenefick Park Big Boy, are the ones to get.
My layout, which is dated in a ten year period between 1947 thru 1956, the Big Boy versions that fit my era must have at least two necessary feature (1) no handrail-mounted aftercoolers on the pilot (these were removed after 1944 on all twenty of the 'early' run Big Boys #4000 thru #4019) and relocated. The last run of five Big Boys #4020 thru #4024, came from ALCO with Wilson Aftercoolers behind louvered doors at the front of the pilot. (2) First run Big Boys had their dynamos originally under the cab, but quickly moved them to the top of the engines when road-grime and rock damage proved that the under-cab location was no good. I think all N-scale Big Boys have the dynamos up top, but, I check new versions when they come out to make sure. I also prefer no wooden planks on top of the tender around the water hatches, and I wish that manufacturers would realize that on later Big Boys...all of them, the water hatches were eventually extended to make watering up easier.
Since the KATO model is oil-fired, has the wrong tender, no ash pans, modern boiler cladding, and modern steam pipes running from the rear cylinders to the front, I won't be purchasing any of these to run on my layout. This is okay, since I'm very happy with my Athearn and BLI models, and I only pull trains of a maximum length of 9'5" anyway...about 30 40' cars and a caboose.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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Has for the lettering on the prototype? I sure do not know if it is white or silver.
I saw the locomotive about three years ago when it made a trip through Arizona.
I got a bunch of pictures of it about 19 miles outside of Yuma AZ.
All the photos look to be white. has a matter of fact there is one picture that you cannot even see the lettering.
Wrong angle or something, but you cannot see any lettering at all.
I saw the same? loco in Sacramento at the rail museum.
That was a long time ago, I sure do not recall the lettering at that time.
I am happy to have the model.
Looks good to me.
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I have no idea and don't care, but it looks silver to me:
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Sooo...are you saying that the lettering on UP's excursion 4014 is white? I've seen it several times in the flesh, and believe me, I would have noticed if the lettering wasn't Aluminum, since that's one of my main gripes about some model Big Boys.
Truthfully, it's difficult to tell from photos if the lettering is White or Aluminum. In my photos and videos I took of 4014 and 844 when they were doubleheading to Ogden, in my photos the lettering looks exactly the same on both engines, and I know for a fact that the 844's lettering is Aluminum.
Also of note, is that the paint on the wheel journal covers, which I know to be Aluminum, looks white in my videos and photos...but, I know for a fact that they are Aluminum.
I am surprised that KATO got the lettering wrong as it's pretty common knowledge that UP's Steam Engine lettering is always Aluminum, even if it looks "white" in photos, but it doesn't when seen with the naked eye.
As for the rest of your points, KATO has not created a "Big Boy" in N-scale, but has replicated the restored 4014 in N-scale. Since there are major difference between the restored 4014 and Big Boys in service in the 1940's thru the 1950's, and, since KATO doesn't make any US prototype freight cars (except for a very few generic ones)...I assume this model was conceptualized to be the most accurate model of the restored 4014, and is designed to be perfect for present-day UP Excursion Service, pulling a variety of KATO water bottles and passenger cars...with maybe a shiny KATO 844 FEF-3 double-heading behind it....but not for pulling a long block of PFE reefers.
Since UP is UP, they were not striving for nor is it the Steam Department's obligation to restore their steam engines to original specifications. The 4014 was definitely a rush job, and I was actually surprised that UP had got it running in time for the Sesquicentennial, but upon close inspection, is was pretty obvious that it still needed some work, such as supplying front cylinder covers, and the angles on the boiler covers looked/look "wrong"...because they are much simplified from the original boiler covers.
/>
Additionally, the tender is 3985's tender, and is not a Big Boy tender, which was deemed to not be restorable in time for the Sesquicentennial. No, Challenger tenders and Big Boy tenders are not the same, although they look similar.
As for historical accuracy, if your layout is running Big Boys in the 1940's thru the 1950's, the KATO model isn't for you. Both the Athearn Big Boy and the BLI Big Boy...not the BLI Excursion 4014, nor their Kenefick Park Big Boy, are the ones to get.
My layout, which is dated in a ten year period between 1947 thru 1956, the Big Boy versions that fit my era must have at least two necessary feature (1) no handrail-mounted aftercoolers on the pilot (these were removed after 1944 on most of the 'early' run Big Boys #4001 thru #4019) and the last run Big Boys #4020 thru #4024, had their aftercoolers behind louvered doors at the front of the pilot. (2) First run Big Boys had their dynamos originally under the cab, but quickly moved them to the top of the engines when road-grime and rock damage proved that the under-cab location was no good. I think all N-scale Big Boys have the dynamo up top, but, I check new versions when they come out to make sure. I also prefer no wooden planks on top of the tender around the water hatches, and I wish that manufacturers would realize that in later Big Boys, the water hatches were extended.
Since the KATO model is oil-fired, has the wrong tender, no ash pans, modern boiler cladding, and modern steam pipes running from the rear cylinders to the front, I won't be purchasing any of these to run on my layout. This is okay, since I'm very happy with my Athearn and BLI models, and I only pull trains of a maximum length of 9'5" anyway...about 30 40' cars and a caboose.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
I've often been tempted to switch modeling eras, specifically to late steam or transition. I love both Pennsy and UP transition era equipment and BLI would likely get a crap ton of my money due to what they've produced. If they offered more of their loco's as stealth units, that temptation would only increase as I think their electronics are crap.
Man, the more I think of it...........
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I am watching this with some interest (mainly curiosity), but the Kato HO P42 has a two motors (one in each truck), and the instructions indicate that a single decoder can handle it, though it seems counter-intuitive to me:
http://www.katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/HO-P42-DCC-Modifications.pdf
I put that tutorial together years ago.
On the HO P42 wiring two coreless motors was really a non issue as the current draw is pretty low. I installed both LokSound and Soundtraxx in a couple thousand of them over the years and they work well enough.
Enjoy!
Kelley.
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I put that tutorial together years ago.
On the HO P42 wiring two coreless motors was really a non issue as the current draw is pretty low. I installed both LokSound and Soundtraxx in a couple thousand of them over the years and they work well enough.
Excessive current draw is not my worry. I'm wondering how the decoder will handle BEMF feedback from 2 motors. After all BEMF is what allows for smooth motor control from almost zero rpms, and also compensate for any load on the motor.
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How do you simulate wheel slip with both engines going to one decoder :D
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How do you simulate wheel slip with both engines going to one decoder :D
Take the traction tires off the front engine. I'm sure that would do it.
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Just curious if anyone has figured out the issue with the rear drivers becoming stuck? Took my Big Boy out of hibernation last run in January and the rear drivers are not spinning while the front drivers are . Nothing that I can see visibly that is wrong. Put it away running and take it out of hibernation and it doesn't move.
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Each powered 4-axle set is called an "engine" There is front engine (right behind the leading or pilot truck), and the rear engine is right behind that (and right in front of the trailign truck).
The careful design of each engine is such that most of the weight that each engine support is over the traction-tire driver. I guess if one of the engines stalls, it will bring the loco to a halt, even if the other engine is still running. Each engine picks up power through all the drivers, and the locos frames connects both engines electrically. You describe a problem with the rear engine which is likely caused by either mechanical bind, or the rear engine's motor feed wires getting disconnected from the frame.
Curious about what do you have to do to make the loco run again? Also, how often does that happen?
Referring to this post in my comment above. Thanks for any replies.
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Referring to this post in my comment above. Thanks for any replies.
Mine is still in pieces (yet another of half-started projects), so I haven to run mine beyond the initial test drive.
Each complete engine is self-contained 0-8-0 locomotive, but electrically they are interconnected, and also connected electrically to the tender.
If you want to do some troubleshooting, place the locomotive upside down, take couple of test clips connected to the cranked up throttle (assuming you have a DC operated model) and touch them to just the pair of front engine's wheels, just the rear engine's wheels, and just to the tender wheels. I suspect that the front engine will be running when the test leads touch the front engine's wheels, rear engine's wheels, and tender wheels. Is that what you observe?
If that is the case then the problem is with either the rear engine's contacts which connect the rear motor to the rear engine's split frame, or some sort of mechanical bind in the rear engine.
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Thanks Pete. It is a DCC with ESU Loksound decoder. The gentleman that installed this for me said send it in and he will get it sorted out. I just hate putting stuff on people if it is something that I can remedy on my own. I have seen a couple mentions on the internet, but have not seen an answer or remedy. I know how my luck will go. I will ship it to the installer and the package handler will bounce it around a little and when the installer gets it the thing will work good. Just confused how it was put in storage running good and come out of storage with an issue. Unfortunately this model is way above my skill level.
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DCC totally changes the scenario since the motor leads are rerouted from the frame halves to the decoder. There is likely a disconnected wire(s) from the rear engine's motor to the decoder.
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Thank you Pete. I guess I will send it in as that sounds above my skill level. Too many fragile pieces that my gorilla fingers will break
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So, had to go to Kato today to pick up couplers for a train I recently purchased. I asked if any installers where around. Spoke to one of them. I asked if they are seeing any binding in the front or rear engines on the Big Boy. He said they have seen some interference on the front engines with the frame causing them to bind. After doing an internet search I see a few people mentioning the rear engine binding, one of those being in this thread.
As for mine, I took it to Des Plaines hobby and talked with Lyle an installer there. I asked if we could take a look and see if I am overlooking something. Put it on his track and the locomotive ran as smooth as silk. All I did was take it out of the box. I have no explanations as to what caused it other than it might be a gremlin in some of the Big Boys. I guess time will tell for me, but as of now it decided to heal itself.
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That's a great news! I have some models mysteriously "heal" themselves, so you're not alone.
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Thanks Pete, now i can try to accomplish what I originally set out to do before this gremlin started. But I will start another thread for that.
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So frustrating - just like when your car is making “that noise”, except when you want the mechanic to hear it!
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I have had my DCC/sound Big Boy for a while but got no further than the test track as my layout has been under a full rebuilding. This weekend was the first of three for the holiday train show in Wall, NJ. The layout is still a work in progress but the mainline is operational on a 12’x15.5 T-shaped route with a ruling grade of 2.4%.
The Big Boy has performed flawlessly. Astonishingly so.
It’s run about 12 hours hauling the Kato UP exec train without any issues other than a few operator-errors.
It sounds like there may be some QC issues, but I think I can say that for the models built as intended, this may be one of the best N scale steam locomotives of all time. I hope they do some steam-era versions.
Rob