TheRailwire
General Discussion => Product Discussion => Topic started by: nickelplate759 on January 21, 2022, 04:30:42 PM
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I got an e-mail from Lowell Smith announcing a new 12-4 sleeper car modelled after the UP "Western" series (also used by C&NW and Wabash), in both UP and Wabash paint.
https://lowellsmith.net/product/up-sleeper-fleet-1/ (https://lowellsmith.net/product/up-sleeper-fleet-1/)
https://lowellsmith.net/product/wabash-sleeper-pair/ (https://lowellsmith.net/product/wabash-sleeper-pair/)
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Well, this is bittersweet. I only need ONE Western sleeper and have no use for the modernized Sun version.
Anyone interested in a joint venture of sorts? If so, PM me please.
Or does Lowell sell these cars individually as well?
Thanks, Otto
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He's selling 1, 2, or 3 UP Western sleepers.
If you only want one it's "Western Wonderland" https://lowellsmith.net/product/up-western-wonderland-sleeper/
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Thanks, I just followed the link. Should have surfed the site a bit more. I just paid for the Western "pair". I may offer to sell one of them when they come out, not sure I need two.
A much needed model for my Utahn train.
Otto
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Did any of these run in Amtrak? So far I haven't found any evidence that Amtrak bought them, nor did I see one in Pasco in the early years.
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Did any of these run in Amtrak? So far I haven't found any evidence that Amtrak bought them, nor did I see one in Pasco in the early years.
https://utahrails.net/pass/named-lightweight-sleepers.php#sleeper-western-adventure (https://utahrails.net/pass/named-lightweight-sleepers.php#sleeper-western-adventure)
https://utahrails.net/pass/named-lightweight-sleepers.php#sleeper-sun-cape (https://utahrails.net/pass/named-lightweight-sleepers.php#sleeper-sun-cape)
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Thank you. So, no, the "Western" cars were all renamed long before Amtrak, and I wouldn't have seen them. So, no need to buy one. Just as well, as my wallet is feeling a little abused right now!
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No, UP Western Series cars were rebuilt into SUN series and had a different interior configuration all bedroom. Wabash Western series cars were by this date painted blue and used on several Wabash/N&W Trains. Lowell's Sun named car is simply his Western Car renamed. A Sun car was all bedrooms with a different window arrangement. Nate Goodman. (Sato). Salt Lake, Utah.
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This is a bit off topic (but bear with me)- I am trying to do a bit of research on the Western and Blue (both the same 12-4 design) cars of Wabash. Somewhere in my stash of magazines, I know there is an article about 12-4 sleepers (I remember reading it, but don't remember the source), but I haven't found the reference in any of the online indexes. My best guess is that it is Mainline Modeler or Prototype Modeler, but could be something else. Does anyone know what I am referring to and where I should be looking?
The Lowell Smith versions are a bit late in the game for me- I have 2 that are semi-complete M&R side versions. But I may buy Blue Horizon anyway, as it would be nice to have one of Lowell's cars on the roster. I can see the "Western" series as having potential for filling out Kato "City of..." trains, so I hope it is successful for him and encourages production of more sleeper configurations.
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This is a bit off topic (but bear with me)- I am trying to do a bit of research on the Western and Blue (both the same 12-4 design) cars of Wabash. Somewhere in my stash of magazines, I know there is an article about 12-4 sleepers (I remember reading it, but don't remember the source), but I haven't found the reference in any of the online indexes. My best guess is that it is Mainline Modeler or Prototype Modeler, but could be something else. Does anyone know what I am referring to and where I should be looking?
"Western Series Passenger Cars" by Thorton Waite, The Streamliner, Volume 7, Number 2, pages 17-31
"Western Series Update", The Streamliner, Volume 7, Number 4, pages 35-36
Railroad Model Craftsman, March 1968, pages 42-43
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No, UP Western Series cars were rebuilt into SUN series and had a different interior configuration all bedroom. Wabash Western series cars were by this date painted blue and used on several Wabash/N&W Trains. Lowell's Sun named car is simply his Western Car renamed. A Sun car was all bedrooms with a different window arrangement. Nate Goodman. (Sato). Salt Lake, Utah.
So buying a Sun car from LS for an early Amtrak train would be a foobie, is what you're saying? Is it a matter of plating over windows or was there significant change? I want to assemble an early Amtrak train and could live with an interior being off, but if the window arrangement is wrong I'll have to consider just how much off it is.
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So buying a Sun car from LS for an early Amtrak train would be a foobie, is what you're saying? Is it a matter of plating over windows or was there significant change? I want to assemble an early Amtrak train and could live with an interior being off, but if the window arrangement is wrong I'll have to consider just how much off it is.
I'm not sure this is correct. Here's Sun Isle, to Auto Train, which still has the window arrangement of a 12-4 sleeper on one side.
https://www.themetrains.com/auto-train-consist-1602-sleeper.htm
Nate, are you thinking of the 11 Bedroom "Placid" series cars? Those definitely have a unique window arrangement. But I'm not sure the rebuilt 12-4's looked like that.
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Lowell's renderings don't show the other side, so here's a basic reference on the window arrangement of a 12-4 from Brass Car Sides. This is what still matches the 1970's era auto train image...
https://www.walthers.com/union-pacific-chicago-north-western-passenger-car-sides-only-etched-brass-acf-12-4-sleeper-up-cnw-western-series-wabash-blue-series-unpainted
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I don't think you can tell from your photo of Sun Isle, Mike, whether Lowell's model will be accurate for the Sun series. Your photo seems to show the aisle side of the car, which from the car diagrams in the Thornton Waite article in The Streamliner Vol. 7 #2, seems to be the same for the 12 Rmtte-4 Bdrm Western series and the 11 Bdrm Sun series. The other side of the 12-4 (as per your brass sides) had 6 large windows for 6 roomettes and 5 smaller windows for 4 bedrooms and a Porter's seat (window closest to the door). The corridor side of the 12-4 had 6 large windows for 6 roomettes across the aisle from the other 6 roomettes and then two corridor windows and a small window for the toilet near the door. In the Sun series diagram in the Waite article, all the bedrooms are on the non-corridor side. The five smaller windows for the 4 bedrooms and the Porter's seat remain the same, and there are 7 large windows for 7 bedrooms. The now corridor side appears to have kept the 6 large windows. The image of the Sun car on Lowell's site does not appear to have added the 7th window. I do not have The Streamliner Vol. 7 #4, which from an above post had an update. Andy Love, Calgary, Alberta
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I don't think you can tell from your photo of Sun Isle, Mike, whether Lowell's model will be accurate for the Sun series. Your photo seems to show the aisle side of the car, which from the car diagrams in the Thornton Waite article in The Streamliner Vol. 7 #2, seems to be the same for the 12 Rmtte-4 Bdrm Western series and the 11 Bdrm Sun series. The other side of the 12-4 (as per your brass sides) had 6 large windows for 6 roomettes and 5 smaller windows for 4 bedrooms and a Porter's seat (window closest to the door). The corridor side of the 12-4 had 6 large windows for 6 roomettes across the aisle from the other 6 roomettes and then two corridor windows and a small window for the toilet near the door. In the Sun series diagram in the Waite article, all the bedrooms are on the non-corridor side. The five smaller windows for the 4 bedrooms and the Porter's seat remain the same, and there are 7 large windows for 7 bedrooms. The now corridor side appears to have kept the 6 large windows. The image of the Sun car on Lowell's site does not appear to have added the 7th window. I do not have The Streamliner Vol. 7 #4, which from an above post had an update. Andy Love, Calgary, Alberta
That helps, Andy. Thanks. Of all the Sun sleeper photos on the net, I ran across 8 of the aisle side and none of the opposite.
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The article in The Streamliner Vol 7 #2 did not have any photos of Sun cars.
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Not sure if this is a viable reference, but BrassTrains.com has an HO Sun sleeper and there are pics of both sides of the car, and it does not match the Lowell Smith offering (well, the one image of a model he provides and the prototype photo of the other side he offers). It would be cool if he chimed in to clarify if the Sun cars would be different or just lipstick on a pig.
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/095962/HO-Brass-Model-Wasatch-UP-Union-Pacific-Sun-Sleeper-Unpainted-1993-Run-Ace-P-M- (https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/095962/HO-Brass-Model-Wasatch-UP-Union-Pacific-Sun-Sleeper-Unpainted-1993-Run-Ace-P-M-)
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Not sure if this is a viable reference, but BrassTrains.com has an HO Sun sleeper and there are pics of both sides of the car, and it does not match the Lowell Smith offering.
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/095962/HO-Brass-Model-Wasatch-UP-Union-Pacific-Sun-Sleeper-Unpainted-1993-Run-Ace-P-M- (https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/095962/HO-Brass-Model-Wasatch-UP-Union-Pacific-Sun-Sleeper-Unpainted-1993-Run-Ace-P-M-)
It does help highlight some of the changes. It will be the closest Sun series sleeper in N, so I can't fault Lowell from doing the car. And he's advertising it as a "classic" version since it won't have an ACF riveted roof. So no harm, no foul there.
I'm going to be tempted to carve the seventh window in one side and make it closer. Kinda like fixing the plan number for the SP 10-6.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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If he advertises it as a “Classic Version,” that means that he painted the closest thing he had. It is not a prototypical match.
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Lowell Smith explains the "Classic" designation for this car as follows:
RailSmith has tooled some new parts and used existing ‘Pullman’ parts to create this never-before-in-N-Scale sleeper! So we call this a Classic version and another great train story!
I'm taking that to mean that the sides at least are correct (at least for the Western car), but things like the roof, floor and maybe the ends are not. I wonder if a Kato ACF roof will fit?
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Lowell Smith explains the "Classic" designation for this car as follows:
RailSmith has tooled some new parts and used existing ‘Pullman’ parts to create this never-before-in-N-Scale sleeper! So we call this a Classic version and another great train story!
I'm taking that to mean that the sides at least are correct (at least for the Western car), but things like the roof, floor and maybe the ends are not. I wonder if a Kato ACF roof will fit?
Does Kato make an ACF car with a roof that detaches? My only Kato ACF cars are Super Chief sleepers (4-4-2 and 10-6) and on those the roof-sides-ends are a 1 piece shell. Coach from the original 1990s smoothside cars, maybe?
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Lowell Smith explains the "Classic" designation for this car as follows:
RailSmith has tooled some new parts and used existing ‘Pullman’ parts to create this never-before-in-N-Scale sleeper! So we call this a Classic version and another great train story!
I'm taking that to mean that the sides at least are correct (at least for the Western car), but things like the roof, floor and maybe the ends are not. I wonder if a Kato ACF roof will fit?
Well,sh!t, you mean I just shelled out over hundred bucks for two ACF cars with Pullman roofs? That would really irritate me, and make me think twice about preordering and paying up front months before the cars are even due. Live and learn I guess. Or I could cancel the order and ask for a refund?
Otto K.
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I don't know, but I'm only expecting the sides to be right. If the roof is right too I'll have a nice surprise.
He's pretty clear that "Classic" is meant as an approximate model. For me it's close enough - I ordered a Wabash "Blue Horizon" car.
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So buying a Sun car from LS for an early Amtrak train would be a foobie, is what you're saying? Is it a matter of plating over windows or was there significant change? I want to assemble an early Amtrak train and could live with an interior being off, but if the window arrangement is wrong I'll have to consider just how much off it is.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7313/27180856712_61b954cbf8_b.jpg)
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Of all the Sun sleeper photos on the net, I ran across 8 of the aisle side and none of the opposite.
(http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/up1609.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8643/30522640075_6c71592990_b.jpg)
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How much difference is there between a Pullman roof and an ACF roof, at least on "as built" post war cars? I compared a Kato ACF 4-4-2 to Kato (NYC) and Walthers (L&N) Pullman 10-6s - and the 10-6s had a few seams at one end that were closer together, but the seams themselves are very similar.
I know that some cars (especially pre-war cars) ended up with variations as they aged- lapped or double seams and such. But most of my models looks pretty similar. And while roofs details are often difficult to see in photos of sleepers, those I can make out don't look vastly different. What am I missing?
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Does Kato make an ACF car with a roof that detaches? My only Kato ACF cars are Super Chief sleepers (4-4-2 and 10-6) and on those the roof-sides-ends are a 1 piece shell. Coach from the original 1990s smoothside cars, maybe?
I thought that all Kato passenger cars had separate roofs.
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Lowell Smith explains the "Classic" designation for this car as follows:
RailSmith has tooled some new parts and used existing ‘Pullman’ parts to create this never-before-in-N-Scale sleeper! So we call this a Classic version and another great train story!
I'm taking that to mean that the sides at least are correct (at least for the Western car), but things like the roof, floor and maybe the ends are not. I wonder if a Kato ACF roof will fit?
Not trying to be a d!ck but he painted three 10-6’s and called them 8-6’s for the Rock. That’s also what he means by “Classic Versions.”
It’s probably the closest that will ever be released to a Rock Island 8-6, but it is what it is.
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Well,sh!t, you mean I just shelled out over hundred bucks for two ACF cars with Pullman roofs? That would really irritate me, and make me think twice about preordering and paying up front months before the cars are even due. Live and learn I guess. Or I could cancel the order and ask for a refund?
Otto K.
I guess this was an unreasonable reaction on my part, since I got zapped for it.
Live and learn...
Otto
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I guess this was an unreasonable reaction on my part, since I got zapped for it.
Live and learn...
Otto
Sorry, I didn't mean to do any "zapping", if you meant my comment- I'm scratching my head at this point thinking that I need to find some detail photos of various ACF and Pullman roofs to see what the various models I have should look like.
I'm guessing that since LS spec's the roof as a Pullman part, what he probably means is the roof from a 10-6, which regardless of ACF or Pullman, would likely be incorrect due to different arrangements of vents and grabs and such. I note in the "Sun" photos provided by Point353, there are rivets between the seams on the roof, which don't show up on any model, Kato or Walthers, I have in my collection.
I don't know that your reaction is unreasonable. Personally, I've had the same complaint, without having 100 bucks on the line. While yes, LS does insert the word "classic" into his descriptions, you need to know his definition of the word (which is to say, "inaccurate"), and catch it somewhere in the couple of paragraphs on any given car.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to do any "zapping", if you meant my comment-
He obviously (to me) means down-vote in our forum's wonderful and very useful respect voting system. :|
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As shown in Point353's photos search, you can see the ACF riveted roof. Kato modeled this well on their smoothside coach. That might be an option for a replacement. I plan to go part way and use an extra cable duct (not a running board!) from a core kit to modify the RailSmith roof, and then weather to approximate the rivet lines. The cable duct will help it look the UP part.
My impression is also that the standard roof will be used. With just a new tool for the car side.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to do any "zapping", if you meant my comment- I'm scratching my head at this point thinking that I need to find some detail photos of various ACF and Pullman roofs to see what the various models I have should look like.
I'm guessing that since LS spec's the roof as a Pullman part, what he probably means is the roof from a 10-6, which regardless of ACF or Pullman, would likely be incorrect due to different arrangements of vents and grabs and such. I note in the "Sun" photos provided by Point353, there are rivets between the seams on the roof, which don't show up on any model, Kato or Walthers, I have in my collection.
I don't know that your reaction is unreasonable. Personally, I've had the same complaint, without having 100 bucks on the line. While yes, LS does insert the word "classic" into his descriptions, you need to know his definition of the word (which is to say, "inaccurate"), and catch it somewhere in the couple of paragraphs on any given car.
Sorry Tom, I wasn't referring to your post; someone "zapped" me with a downvote (but someone else since "unzapped" me :P
No big one way or another...but thanks to whomever.
Yea, I just wasn't privy to the new meaning of "classic"...
Otto
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Point353's photo share made something else clear. The appeal of this car from Lowell's perspective is that he only has to tool one new side of the car. Not a whole new carbody.
Now the Western series makes more sense.
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Point353's photo share made something else clear. The appeal of this car from Lowell's perspective is that he only has to tool one new side of the car. Not a whole new carbody.
Now the Western series makes more sense.
I am confused- which side of the carbody matches another car in his catalog?
Now you've got me wondering....
One thing I noticed, since it is different from the M&R version in my vast collection of not quite finished passenger cars, the 6 large windows are evenly spaced, where on the LS version, 5 are evenly spaced, and then there is a wider space between 5 and 6 (assuming 6 is the center window). And the photos I can find of the Wabash cars look to me (granted, photos can be deceptive) as though the even spacing is correct. Which leads me to wonder, since I think the cars were delivered in 2 or 3 batches from ACF, whether they are all identical.
On the "Sun" cars, in the photos provided by Point353, it appears that the windows on what I assume is the room side of the 11 bedroom car after modification, there are 7 medium sized windows- 1 separate and then 3 pairs arranged as they would be on a 10-6. But the LS graphics indicate that the Sun cars as he's doing them are just repaints of the 12-4 carbody.
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It is all in the description if you read it. Every car that I can recall has a pretty detailed description on whether it is true to prototype or a compromise and labeled Classic.
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I wondering why he doesn't get a roofwalk and glue that to the roof before painting? Not really a super modification to the carbody. Are there any places that sell separate ACF roofwalks like that in N?
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I wondering why he doesn't get a roofwalk and glue that to the roof before painting? Not really a super modification to the carbody. Are there any places that sell separate ACF roofwalks like that in N?
Sure, it's called Evergreen Strip Styrene.
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It's not actually a roof walk, but it does look like one. The old American Limited core kits had a part for it. If it's not on the car when I get it I may add that part.
And @OldEastRR @wazzou is right - a single piece of Evergreen strip is all you really need.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/7313/27180856712_61b954cbf8_b.jpg)
@thomasjmdavis I thought this side matched, but not quite. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
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For those of us who model the Canadian National, the CNR leased several of the Blue-series cars (Wabash, but N&W by 1967) to deal with additional passenger traffic at Expo 67, including Blue Horizon. They were supposed to be on a two year lease, but were turned back early as they were not in great condition. Still, if you are modeling passenger trains into Toronto in 1967 it would not be out of place for one to be rolling into Union station from a Montreal train, or sitting in the passenger yard at Spadina.
I’ll have to look up the pictures and see if it looks accurate or not. I do not think they painted CN on them, unlike the EL and other leased cars. In fact, IIRC Blue Horizon was still marked Pullman on the letterboards!
Best regards,
Michael
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It's not actually a roof walk, but it does look like one. The old American Limited core kits had a part for it. If it's not on the car when I get it I may add that part.
And wazzou is right - a single piece of Evergreen strip is all you really need.
Fixed it. ;)
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What everyone refers to in their posts as walkway, was called Wire Cable Duct Work on ACF UP cars and matching cars used by other roads in UP Service. see UP Passenger car diagrams, or the long out of print "UP Streamliners" by William Kratville. Yes Evergreen strip could represent this. Nate Goodman. (Nato).
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Thanks @Nato, I had wondered about what those were for.
I've noted that the ATSF sleepers delivered by ACF in 1950 (Palm 10-6 and the ACF versions of the Regal 4-4-2) lack the cable duct. Was the ductwork something specific to UP (and SP?) cars, or was it found more generally?
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The Cable Duct was specific to UP ACF cars and like cars on C&NW and Wabash. Nate Goodman. (NATO).
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Thanks Nato.
The old ALM core kits came with a strip of styrene that I assumed was for the purpose, but unless I had a photo, I didn't know when to use it (hard to tell in a lot of side views, usually taken from 5-6 feet off the ground).
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EDIT: After reading Otto's post below, I am revising my post. Strikes and additions in red.
I received my Wabash "Blue Horizon" today.
I think I am now a convert. Beautiful finish and lettering. My wife took a look and said "the lettering is impeccable" (actual quote).
In the ads for these cars, Lowell noted that in order to produce them, the cars (ACF prototypes) would have some Pullman Standard details in common with the 10-6 already in the product line. BUT none of the advertising I saw mentioned that only one side of the car would be a 12-4, and the other side would be a foobie window pattern taken from a 10-6. It does appear that the car uses the same underbody detail and roof rivet pattern as the 10-6, but this doesn't bother me (a) because he said so up front, (b) many of my models don't have any rivet detail on them at all, (c) for all I know, the 12-4 and the 10-6 underbodies could be similar/same, and (4) given that those parts are black, the minor differences don't jump out at me.
He did include the ACF beltrail, which to my eye is the major distinguishing feature between *most* ACF and Pullman Standard smooth side cars.
Overall, I am very, very pleased with this car, and I need to take my own paint jobs up a notch for the cars that will run with this one.
I am certainly going to keep an eye on future releases for cars (like this one) that fill in the gaps for trains I model. I won't be buying any future releases of new tooling from Railsmith until I have seen a delivered model, or read a reliable review of a car with clear photos.
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Well, I just got my two UP "Western" sleepers today. The finishes, detailing and even the packaging are impeccable, truly great looking models. I assume they will roll well also, and they do have MT truck mounted couplers.
But I now understand the meaning of "classic". The right side is spot on, the left side is a 10-6 with an appropriate belt rail added under the windows, as is the rest of the car...ends, underbody, roof, etc.
There's curving skirting at the ends where there shouldn't be any...perhaps a somewhat easy fix, as is the lack of cable enclosure running the length of the roof, a UP signature item, another easy fix. The isle side window arrangement is not so easy, with the 5/3 grouping, it really screems 10-6 at me; if only the middle window were closer to the other five to make it a 6 per side to match the other side for a proper 12. Oh well. If I only had a layout with only the correct window side arrangement showing along the isle :D
I'll probably make some mods to the roof, skirts, and underbody, but that ONE offending window is a tough nut to crack; I'll probably just live with it, happily I might add (a first world problem).
I'll post some pics below.
Otto K.
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Wow....you are absolutely right Otto. I am going to have to edit my earlier post. I did not look closely enough at the aisle side of the car. He only tooled half the car. Never occurred to me that Lowell would do such a thing. Fine, I guess, if you only run trains in one direction. It just went from a model of the car I wanted to a well painted stand in based on a prototype that never existed. If I had known, I would have just ordered another set of sides and built my own.
I'll have to revise my earlier post. No more orders from me until I see both sides of a delivered car or a review here on Railwire.
I've gone from enthusiastic to pissed off.
The least he could have done was to use the side with 6 room windows, so we'd arguably have a 12-4 (albeit with the wrong aisle windows), instead of the "11-4" that we now have. Oh, and TOLD US he was only doing one side of the car.
EDIT: oops, I see why he didn't use the other side of the 10-6, because then there would be 11 total windows on the side, since that side would have 6 bedrooms and 5 roomettes. Still, why go to the trouble to produce a car that is correct (ish- noting the skirts)
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Well, we speculated earlier in the thread about whether the one side was going to be reused. It's not great.
1) The P-S 10-6 in Lowell's line has the belt rail tooled. It is not a new addition for this car, so yes, Lowell only tooled one new side. I believe ACF construction would have had a rail above the windows as well.
2) Going to be tough to fix the other side. Do we move one window over, or replace the whole band to get the spacing correct? Perhaps carving out of another 12-4 side, to get those windows the same across the car. Oi. That's going to be expensive.
See up thread for how to block out and move windows, as demonstrated on the SP 10-6 which needs the same work.
Is this the only 12-4 we're going to get? Yup. Onward we go.
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I got mine (Wabash Blue Horizon) yesterday. Since it's going in my St. Louis-Detroit Ltd. consist along with a bunch of repainted Micro-Trains heavyweights, it's now the closest-to-prototype car (about 50% I suppose) in the consist, and I'm happy :)
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I have mine, and, while I would have preferred a more accurate model, it will serve its purpose. Modeling 1974 Montana, the only passenger train on my standard gauge is an occasional detoured Amtrak. I saw UP Pacific, Placid, and Sun series cars in Pasco in the Empire Builder, so wanted a set.
None of the three are perfect. ConCor made the Pacific 10-6 cars, but used an unusual CB&Q prototype, with the same (mirrored) window pattern on both sides.
The Placid cars are AMB laser-cut plastic sides - the only one I ever bought. They turned out fine, but I don't really like the design, as painting the interior was very difficult. The windows are part of the sides, and the inside wasn't masked for painting.
Now I have a Sun car from Railsmith, although I had to reletter it. His model is an early scheme, accurate as far as I know, with "PULLMAN" on the letterboard. By 1974, that had been changed to "UNION PACIFIC", so I also took the opportunity to rename the car, to match one I saw in Pasco. It's at least as accurate as the others, and better looking than the AMB kit.
And, yes, the windows are solidly glued in!
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And, yes, the windows are solidly glued in!
Yikes. LS uses a Kato frame, Kato roof, Kato windows, and a body built to fit the Kato frame. Why TF does he GLUE the windows in? The interior Kato design doesn't need glue to hold parts in!!! How much of an N scaler IS this guy?
OK, matching this "Classic" to the actual car it's supposed to be, I can see the end skirts need to be cut down. And MORE skirt to be added. My estimate is a 0.20x0.40 Evergreen strip to match the prototype. Luckily when you add it you don't need to make a smooth joint -- the photo show the seam of the added skirt (which I presume UP added when they got the cars).
To match the exact place to cut off the extra skirts, use the height of the angular grab irons on the ends of the car (under the floor). That looks about right from the photos. Then you need to add the strip styrene, leaving gaps over the trucks (which apparently ARE prototype) but rounding the ends of the strips at the ends of the cutouts.
Obviously, this means you must match the LS gray not only for the roof duct, but these skirts. Sure, great. I love having to put in hours of work on a car I spent $50 on. At least it has MT couplers (but not Kato trucks) and real metal wheels, Plus I guess two steel posts on one end you can add a light board (whose???) too.
Like other posters here, I will not be buying any LS cars in the future. I wonder if he realizes as he degrades his product he loses previous customers who were impressed with his early work. Ah, well, it's the American way.
I'll go back to bitching about how Rapido does every NH streamline fluted passenger cars except the Observation IN HO, but only only
a measly coach in N. Now I wonder if THESE guys know people always buy multiples of passenger cars -- even more if they're easily modified into OTHER like cars of that type. Again I ask, how much of an N scaler is Rapido's owner?
And since spending hours already to correct this "Classic", might as well correct the interior to a true 12-4. What else do I have to do with my time? (snark)
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There are no Kato parts.
And there is no reason to question his N scale chops.
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No, his cars started with the ex-Walthers cars, not Kato. And he does note which cars are prototype, and which are stand-ins.
Plus, in many cases, skirting changes over the life of the car, so what's correct for one purchaser may not be for another.
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Can somebody post a drawing of the floor plan of the UP "western" series? And does the underbody on the LS model match the prototype?
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Yikes. LS uses a…...
I'll go back to bitching about how……
Instead of “bitching” and making a post that is simply false and slanderous that I had edit it out of my response you could find a hobby that makes you happy! This hobby sure does not appear to bring you any joy!
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I'll go back to bitching about how Rapido does every NH streamline fluted passenger cars except the Observation IN HO, but only only
a measly coach in N. Now I wonder if THESE guys know people always buy multiples of passenger cars -- even more if they're easily modified into OTHER like cars of that type. Again I ask, how much of an N scaler is Rapido's owner?
I do agree with your argument about the NH passenger cars, but the "owner" of Rapido is not an N scaler. Jason clearly is an HO modeller, as is their NH guy.
Also I agree that gluing anything together on a RTR model is bad practice and manufacturers should be made aware that it really impedes the portion of hobbyists that like to actually work on their models.
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Also I agree that gluing anything together on a RTR model is bad practice and manufacturers should be made aware that it really impedes the portion of hobbyists that like to actually work on their models.
Unfortunately it seems that the percentage of their N scale market that fits your description is insignificant enough not to be considered.
But I really suspect that if it makes things easier at the factory to glue some parts together during assembly, they will do it (even if those parts could be assembled without glue).
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I concede that there may be cases where parts need gluing during assembly, but surely they don't need to use a permanent bond. If they can't get it to stay on with a minute layer of glue or no glue at all, then it's got to be an intentional design feature to minimize cost. I'd be less upset about such cost saving measures if they offered unassembled versions, but it seems more and more manufacturers are catering less to those who want to customize their models; the least they could do is not take shortcuts in assembly that make it less viable for those people to start with a RTR model. I believe that to be a fair compromise to no longer producing undecorated or kit models anymore.
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I am guessing most manufacturers are placing the emphasis how to sell the most units while minimizing cost of complex manufacturing processes while minimizing warranty costs. Building customization into a product for a small percentage of the customer base who may not all want the same thing doesn’t sound like a sound business practice.
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Yea I am sure this is the case, but I do find it a bit perplexing that undecorated and kit (unassembled) models are being ditched by most manufacturers. I can understand that they don't sell as well, and keeping stock of them consumes inventory space, but surely for those companies who are moving towards pre-order based production it must not be a huge overhead to offer these options. I imagine that in reality it comes down to each company's relationship with their factories; diversifying a production run will undoubtedly be pushed back from the factories, but obviously it's been viable in the past even without the solid metric of demand that pre-orders allow.
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Can somebody post a drawing of the floor plan of the UP "western" series? And does the underbody on the LS model match the prototype?
In the hopes of bringing some peace to this thread....
https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Union-Pacific-Equip-Diagrams/Union-Pacific-Passenger-Diagrams-1941-1967/i-DQRGjm3/A
While the diagram does not show an underbody view, it does show the major underbody parts on the side view.
Since one side of the LS 12-4 is incorrect, you will need to adjust the roomettes to fit the windows, and will only have 5 on that side.
Best I got. If you want more, you're on your own.
The the index of diagrams for the entire UP fleet (I am not a UP expert, but if anything is missing, I don't know what it is), from the beginning of WWII up to the day before Amtrak, including heavyweights:
https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Union-Pacific-Equip-Diagrams/Union-Pacific-Passenger-Diagrams-1941-1967/
Since one side of the LS 12-4 is incorrect, you will need to adjust the roomettes to fit the windows, and will only have 5 on that side.
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Thanks for the info on sleepers. Tho this car is a 10-6, the floor plan is different from the Kato "Pacific" 10-6 -- the aisle next to the bedrooms is on the opposite side of the car. I found this out when I tried to put the LS body on a KATO 10-6 frame. I can easily Dremel-modify the LS interior to match the "Western" config.
Tho this will probably ruffle people's feathers I do have to note that LS did good job on getting the underbody detail correct, yet passed on the one wall. Considering one rarely sees a N scale car's underbody but the sides are pretty visible, I don't why this choice was made. I'm not going to put in a new window -- I have enough adjustments to make to the car already. I'm looking at how to install KATO-type lighting kit. Plus replace the trucks with KATO ones.
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Are you trying to imply LS tooled a new underframe for the 12-4 sleeper?
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Earlier today, I compared the brand new LS "Western" sleeper to a 15 year old Walthers 10-6. The underbodies are identical. No new tooling there. On the other hand...given that the mechanics under the floor were fairly standardized by the mid 50s, if the 12-4 by ACF and the 10-6 by Pullman had similar placement of water tanks, brake cylinders and battery boxes, it wouldn't shock me.
As to why he only did one side of the car- and did not tell us when soliciting orders? The only thing I can think of is that maybe he had a set of tooling for a 10-6 with one damaged side, and it was an easier fix to fill one window and partially fill 4 others than to restore the side to the original configuration. But that is just an out of left field guess.
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I'd say that we need to look at this not as new tooling, but to consider it an experiment. Lowell's experimenting with the factory to see if they can tool a new car side and window insert. He then has data on how well the car comes out, how much that costs, and how doable it is in terms of sales. Then, he can decide to keep painting the same coach and 10-6 sleeper sides, or if the market supports improvements.
The basic theory that the market won't support a full on newly tooled 12-4 sleeper is probably correct. And you needs to start tracking the decisions made from that point forward.
It's a concept car, in my mind. And I don't have inside info, but that's what I would have done if I bought Walthers tooling and was trying to make a go at it without blowing too much capital.
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I'd say that we need to look at this not as new tooling, but to consider it an experiment. Lowell's experimenting with the factory to see if they can tool a new car side and window insert. He then has data on how well the car comes out, how much that costs, and how doable it is in terms of sales. Then, he can decide to keep painting the same coach and 10-6 sleeper sides, or if the market supports improvements.
The basic theory that the market won't support a full on newly tooled 12-4 sleeper is probably correct. And you needs to start tracking the decisions made from that point forward.
It's a concept car, in my mind. And I don't have inside info, but that's what I would have done if I bought Walthers tooling and was trying to make a go at it without blowing too much capital.
But he's already committed to several new cars- the NP coach and duplex sleeper, the Frisco/MKT diner and his baggage retooled into an RPO. I assume all 4 have both sides. And 3 of them have new tooling (I think, anyway, I don't see them as adapted from any of his previous cars) for the sides, although I assume they utilize the same ends and roofs (with some vents moved around?).
I would agree that there is not enough market to support a tooled from scratch 12-4, which is why I was surprised he was doing it. There were any number of more likely subjects.
If this was an experiment, then he owed it to us guinea pigs to tell us it was an experiment, and that it was a "one sided" experiment. That information certainly never made it into the promotional material I saw. Did I miss something?
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And I just got an e-mail from him today saying they now have lighting kits for his cars. With capacitors, track powered pick-up. I assume they'll be like the Walthers ones, with mods. If any one of you "guinea pigs" want to try them out, come back here and let us know what you think of it.
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But he's already committed to several new cars- the NP coach and duplex sleeper, the Frisco/MKT diner and his baggage retooled into an RPO. I assume all 4 have both sides. And 3 of them have new tooling (I think, anyway, I don't see them as adapted from any of his previous cars) for the sides, although I assume they utilize the same ends and roofs (with some vents moved around?).
I would agree that there is not enough market to support a tooled from scratch 12-4, which is why I was surprised he was doing it. There were any number of more likely subjects.
If this was an experiment, then he owed it to us guinea pigs to tell us it was an experiment, and that it was a "one sided" experiment. That information certainly never made it into the promotional material I saw. Did I miss something?
You're right, he's moved in that direction. But what was quoted at the factory first and what was delivered first? In another life, or maybe later in this life, I'd love to be learning the same things Lowell is about making model trains.
Here's what he said on the listings: "RailSmith has tooled some new parts and used existing ‘Pullman’ parts to create this never-before-in-N-Scale sleeper! So we call this a Classic version." So while he didn't say it was a one sided car, he was also pretty coy about not leaving out the possibility. And "Classic" is a trigger for me to research the car to see if it fits my 90% or better rule.
Now, could we pre-research the car, since no photos were shared of the other side? No. So we're allowed to feel a bit burnt.
I've been doing Wabash cars again, and am getting the itch to work on one.
1) Swap roof for an ACF style riveted roof from a Kato UP smoothside. This gets the top duct too.
2) Move a window? Or cut out a whole window section from the newly tooled side of one car and swap it into the opposite side of the other... One I could save paint, but the other way is an easy paint job and then the lettering will match the Gary Roe lettering I've been using. Someday I'm going to run out of those decals though... need to start rationing for the important cars.
3) Add the missing batten above the windows. If I keep the paint, will try clear vinyl overlay, just to catch the light. If I repaint, .005" styrene strip.
4) Figure out what train I'm going to use it on!
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From what I can tell Lowell is the whole staff, maybe some help from his wife. He has a steady production of cars, schemes, and road names you can’t find anywhere else. The quality is on par with other similar products. He defines what a Classic Car is and tells you when something is prototype. He has always responded to my inquiries very quickly, usually less than 24 hours. To imply anything is below board is way off base.
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From what I can tell Lowell is the whole staff, maybe some help from his wife. He has a steady production of cars, schemes, and road names you can’t find anywhere else. The quality is on par with other similar products. He defines what a Classic Car is and tells you when something is prototype. He has always responded to my inquiries very quickly, usually less than 24 hours. To imply anything is below board is way off base.
Well said. Can you imagine us being around when Rowa released the corrugated dome car that should have been smoothside but was matched to the rest of the tooling? That would be a fun thread. Maybe we start it up on April 1 just to see what would churn out. :D
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4) Figure out what train I'm going to use it on!
I'm using mine on the St. Louis / Detroit Limited. Of course, all the other cars in the train are heavyweights.
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Well said. Can you imagine us being around when Rowa released the corrugated dome car that should have been smoothside but was matched to the rest of the tooling? That would be a fun thread. Maybe we start it up on April 1 just to see what would churn out. :D
If we were around when N scale started there would be no N scale! LOL!!
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If we were around when N scale started there would be no N scale! LOL!!
LOL