TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: u18b on February 14, 2020, 12:49:00 PM
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After an exhausting time of tinkering, tinkering, tinkering....
I finally got my surplus Wiseman Shay kit to run acceptable. (I'm not the original owner and I'm picking up from someone else's work).
This is a complex model that was a basket case when I got it. Almost every subsystem required tinkering/adjustment or even rebuilding.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/medium_1277-190120022159-14370981.jpeg)
I would get it quieter... then tinker... then worse... then tinker. etc.
My point is that excess noise was coming from multiple problems.
In this photo (ignore that the worm bearing mount screws have been removed)... notice that in this photo alone (not even showing all that stuff happening at the trucks and crankshaft) we have a worm, washers (too many/not enough?), 1 gear soldered to shaft, 1 gear retained by screw (screw too tight/too loose? need a washer? no washer?), 2 bearings, tubing for interface (which is not even), and a poorer quality Bachmann motor (probably 3-pole). Noise could come from any or all of these sources. All total in the whole loco, there are about 20-30 points where noise could be produced.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/medium_1277-090220213719-149002460.jpeg)
I had binding issues, whirring noises, screeching noises, cogging issues, and mesh issues... all painstakingly corrected.
But no matter what I did, I could not get it to run to my standards.
So then I moved toward drastic measures. :scared: I decided on a progressively challenging course. Start easy and then move to the really hard.
1. Replace the motor and motor/worm shaft interface
2. Replace the worm and bearings
3. Rebuild the crankshaft :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
Thankfully I had some spare parts.
So I replaced the motor... and while replacing the worm, made an astonishing discovery.
The screeching was mostly coming from one bearing- the inside worm shaft bearing.
But what was astonishing was how the steel shaft was damaged by the screeching bearing. This is what surprised me.
I fact, the damage was so bad, you could actually see it.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/medium_1277-140220121536-149551775.jpeg)
So I decided to put my caliper on it and take some readings.
The steel shaft is a 1mm shaft. So the right end where the coupling was soldered is still stock.
Two of the friction/moving surfaces have been worn down around 1/100th of an inch a millimeter (or possibly only 5/1,000ths since the digital caliper only goes to two decimal places and thus rounds up or down).
But the spot where the screeching bearing sat has been worn an EXTRA 4/100ths of an inch! a millimeter That may not sound like much but remember this does not even count how the bearing hole has been opened up also.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/medium_1277-140220121529-149541385.jpeg)
So when a bearing is screeching, you automatically think about how the soft bronze/brass bearing will be damaged. But I never gave much though to how the harder steel shaft could be damaged as well.
So in the future, maybe this post will help make real to everyone in a memorable way the admonition: If you hear screeching, STOP and fix it. Never keep running screeching bearings.
EDIT: Corrected egregious brain fog :facepalm:
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Thanks for this write-up Ron - very educational.
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This reminds me of some fan shafts I've had to replace, say a bad bearing like yours, poor alignment, excessive vibration etc. You can get a solid steel shaft with a deep groove that almost looks machined- 1/4" deep or more depending how long it had been running. Granted the torque and load are much higher than a model train, but I'll leave the physics for those in the know. All I know is that when I see it, I order a new shaft and bearings and align/balance everything properly ;)
Lucas
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.040" is a HUGE amount of wear on that shaft.
Are you sure that shaft is really hardened, like a drill bit? Maybe it's not and that's why it wore so much.
You've shown the evidence, so there's no doubt that it wore down. But it's still pretty hard to believe that grinding hardened steel against a brass bearing would make the steel wear at all.
I wonder now, if I took a piece of drill shaft, put it in a power drill, and just ran it against a piece of brass, would that steel shaft wear down like that? Maybe worth an experiment.
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I can believe it. Dried lubricant and even powdered brass can make for quite an abrasive. Way back in the last century when I was rebuilding car engines, the bearing surfaces against the crankshaft steel were a soft alloy ("Babbitt metal" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(alloy))) designed to take the brunt of the wear and be the renewable component. Nonetheless, I had to replace more than one crankshaft because it was worn past the allowable re-machining tolerances. Yes, it was a little more complicated than that (recirculated dirty oil being the bigger wear factor), but same effect as what Ron found.
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.040" is a HUGE amount of wear on that shaft.
Are you sure that shaft is really hardened, like a drill bit? Maybe it's not and that's why it wore so much.
You've shown the evidence, so there's no doubt that it wore down. But it's still pretty hard to believe that grinding hardened steel against a brass bearing would make the steel wear at all.
I wonder now, if I took a piece of drill shaft, put it in a power drill, and just ran it against a piece of brass, would that steel shaft wear down like that? Maybe worth an experiment.
I have no idea if it is hardened or not.
How would you tell?
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.040" is a HUGE amount of wear on that shaft.
It is not 0.040" but it is in millimeters.
Looking at the photo of that 1mm diameter shaft's wear, it looks more like 0.04mm. I also think that always using the leading zero on fractional dimensions makes things look clearer.
If 1mm shaft was worn by 0.4mm then it would be almost half its original diameter (0.6mm). That shaft in the photo does not look anything like that. Let's look at that photo everyone.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/medium_1277-140220121529-149541385.jpeg)
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Yep.
Brain fog- I switched systems (NASA lost a Mars probe for the same reason).
All is in millimeters. Thanks Peteski.
I corrected the original post.
But the original point is that-
1. The shaft wore noticeably down
2. .04 mm is a huge amount (combined with the damaged bearing) and will cause a bearing to scream.
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Whoops... sorry. Yes, .04mm, which is only .0015"
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Well from the looks of things that worm drive was in need of some well deserved TCL.
Not sure where your noise was coming from? The wear on the shaft is due to metal debris that worked its way into the bearing. The very fine metal makes excellent cutting compound! That shaft would not wear like that without the grime to cut the shaft.
There are many problems in this set up. Get a free floating U-joint between motor and worm shaft. Right now I would guess that coupling is vibrating and was putting some strain on that front bearing.
I would make some new bronze bushings and some new bearing supports. Might has well replace the shaft and get some way to adjust the worm to its worm wheel.
Looks like a project, but well worth the effort!
,
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Thanks Woodone,
I've already made a lot of changes. Will post for Weekend update.
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It also appears that you had some galling (hence the shiny).
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The worm, itself, is damaged from poor mesh, too. The telltale sharp edges.
Doug
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The worm, itself, is damaged from poor mesh, too. The telltale sharp edges.
Doug
I wonder if the worm gear is also brass? Hard to see, but it might be. That would likely cause excessive wear.
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A simple test is to take a mill file across it, if it takes metal off it's not considered "hardened". Otherwise you can use a hardness tester, but it will leave a divot. I have one sitting next to me :)
I have no idea if it is hardened or not.
How would you tell?
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Most worm-worm wheel drives use different materials for the worm (steel most of the time) and a brass/bronze worm wheel.
If the same materials are used the gears seam to gall and wear out real quick.Has for hardened shafts, I don’t think the models we are working with here demand a very hard shaft. A brass shaft? Way too soft! Any good steel shafting material from places like NWSL or Mc Master Carr will outlast most of us.
It’s the dirt/debris that gives us problems.
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A simple test is to take a mill file across it, if it takes metal off it's not considered "hardened". Otherwise you can use a hardness tester, but it will leave a divot. I have one sitting next to me :)
Oops, clicked on wrong post.
Doug
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I wonder if the worm gear is also brass? Hard to see, but it might be. That would likely cause excessive wear.
I think that kind of wear (sharp worm edges) occurs from insufficient mesh and the ends get excessively worn. It's hard to get it to stop even readjusting mesh. You usually have to use a new worm. Some mechanisms are extremely touchy for this. The old Arnold steamers, for example.
Doug
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I think that kind of wear (sharp worm edges) occurs from insufficient mesh and the ends get excessively worn. It's hard to get it to stop even readjusting mesh. You usually have to use a new worm. Some mechanisms are extremely touchy for this. The old Arnold steamers, for example.
Doug
Whatever it was, I have feeling that Ron will do something about it. He is pretty familiar with N scale mechanicals. What surprises me is that he did not mention what he found to have caused the unusual worm wear. He is usually pretty thorough in that regard.
@u18b ?
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Whatever it was, I have feeling that Ron will do something about it. He is pretty familiar with N scale mechanicals. What surprises me is that he did not mention what he found to have caused the unusual worm wear. He is usually pretty thorough in that regard.
@u18b ?
It had to be the stupid rubber hose connection. It is inherently uneven, and it is too fat in that it slightly scrapes the base plate. Thus since it is uneven, it causes the joint to bounce up and down.
If you own a Shay, I would do what I did and replace that rubber joint.
What bugs me is that I have another Shay, and while it runs pretty well, I fear the bearings in it may already have some slight damage.
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It had to be the stupid rubber hose connection. It is inherently uneven, and it is too fat in that it slightly scrapes the base plate. Thus since it is uneven, it causes the joint to bounce up and down.
I'm not sure how to interpret that Ron. Are you saying that the rubber universal coupling somehow cause the worm's edges to get sharp? How does that relate?
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Sorry reading fast and not paying attention.
I answered the - how did the bearings get so bad question.
As for the worm, yes, one or more theorized the mesh was bad.
It was tight enough (you have no control over that, but the worm and the worm gear are not at exactly the same level.
The worm is higher- and that's where there is no elevation in the bearings. If you install the fiber washer/pads (for vibration reduction I assume) then the height is even greater.
Probably the best mesh is achieved with bearing holders mounted right on the base (no fiber washers) and a washer under the worm gear to raise it.
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The worm is brass. Is the worm gear also brass? Not readily apparent in the photos. If they are both brass, that can cause excessive wear.
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Yes. They are both brass.
While we're on the subject, the upper worm, worm gear and transition gear all all brass.
The transition gear spins a perpendicular shaft hidden in the cylinders.
Down there at the bottom of that shaft is another worm, but it looks steel.
This interfaces with a steel gear in the crankshaft.
So brass on brass up top and steel on steel below.
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WOW! Looks like you have really opened up a can of worms.- Is this all O.E.?
Brass against brass is really not good, nor is steel to steel.
I would think in this drive you have a worm driving a worm wheel which is an idler. The idler drives a vertical shaft which has another worm that turns a gear on the crankshaft?
Maybe you can mount the vertical shaft/worm at a different angle and get rid of the idler?
The steel to steel drive to the crank might be a real problem- getting a brass gear on the crankshaft could be a deal breaker.
Don’t think this is a one night work project.
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Are the worms the same pitch and diameter? If so, could the shaft be inverted? Steel on brass isn't a bad combination. Is it possible that it was assembled that way in error? Just some thoughts. :|
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My sound decoder should be arriving in a day or two. When it does, I'll post more pics on these gears.
By the way, I sort of treat this loco like the real thing. I lubricate it a good deal. There are a LOT of metal moving parts. Grease on the gears and oil on all bearings and joints.
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Hi folks.
This thread is evolving (which is good).
Since the original intent of the thread from the first post is fulfilled, I suggest we move this discussion to a fresh thread with a more reflective title.
So let's stop this thread here and I'll start a new thread (which I intended to do all along- this seems like a good time.)