TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: randgust on February 01, 2020, 06:22:37 PM
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OK, first and foremost, I'm not a good enough PRR guy to take this on without help from the SPF's here.
And, I don't want to get into this thing and find out that if I'd just asked...could have made it a lot easier.
This has a family connection in that the PRR Salamanca Branch (Oil City - Olean) had a local passenger train in 1926-1928 that my father rode as a commuter from Tidioute to Warren PA every day when he was going to business college. He was enough of a railfan to remember details; first year was a doodlebug, second year that was taken off and it was back to a steam engine. He just about had to be the only commuter on that train.
So that story is also confirmed by Pietrak's book on the "Western New York and Pennsylvania" that indicates on of the very last runs for the D16sb's was on the Oil City to Olean run, and there are photos in his book of the class at both end points that verify my fathers story.
Personally, I'm old enough that I did get to see 1223 running at Strasburg, and I was really impressed with a couple things - it could really accelerate, and the exhaust was relatively sharp. For a 4-4-0, a pretty impressive machine. And, of course, it's stuffed and mounted for study in Strasburg.
I've done a couple Pennsy engines, and I'm really thinking about a deep-dive scratchbuild of one of these. I've got the clearance diagrams with the basic dimensions for the 68" driver version. I have a very much scrap Rivarossi 4-6-2 that has 68" drivers and a case of zinc pest on the frame, so I can steal stuff from that. I can also turn flanges.... And I'm on no timeline here.
Here's one of the class at Olean, NY about 1920: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr6217.jpg I've got shots of four more of the class at various locations on the line but that's as good a shot as any.
I'm intrigued by that headlight - electric conversion into the original kerosene box? I'm pretty sure there's a turbogenerator back by the cab?
But to do this right I really need drawings better that just the clearance diagram if anybody has ever seen any, and help on locating parts in N. I 'think' the tender, trucks, etc. are on Shapeways, but the cab kind of scares me to get it right. There are some other PRR classes or models that might share parts here that I don't know about.
I'm probably going to do this as a tender drive like I did my HVRR 2-6-0, that's really turned out to be a champ.
I'm intending to scratch the boiler from brass tubing, have done that before.
Anyway, at this point, opinions and ideas welcome...! I'd idealized about scratchbuilding my Lima 2-6-0 for years, but getting the builder drawings from the California State Railroad Museum Lima collection moved me off dead center and made it possible and got it done.
The other thing I'd love to come across is a PRR timetable from that period for a train number and schedule, if anybody has an Official Guide for that three-year period.
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Steal the cab from a Minitrx B6sb. It's a dead ringer, if not to use it, then to measure it. That whole loco screams the entire B6 shell. Nice and heavy for weight over the drivers.
I actually have a filled in version of the shell- an all solid casting that you can have for the shipping.
I believe there are D16 drawings, either in the MRR Cyclopedia, or in a book I have. Let me look.
There are also general arrangement diagrams online.
I'll see if I can make an overlay.
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Yes there are D16 drawings in the Steam cylopedia and a D13.
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Is that the Model Railroader cyclopedia 'steam locomotives'?
(https://books.google.com/books/content?id=Pu95SgAACAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE71rx08G8aKGNs93yE2El6jW91u_KelD4W3bqd6TYDU0kf8NmXGKeOPCj1ut1362u1KNVOPaFNxGMjBBJf9lJUR62ljBVv3pGfbcBloYvvplQAx3ThSdDE82ZsWIwNcRjiLxbC5l)
Lemosteam, that cab tip is the exact kind of thing I was looking for here.
I've got the Pennsy Power book (used, very beat up!) and it has the diagrams in it. General dimensions but no details, of course.
This is the shot of 1046 in the Pietrak book (page 8-9) - its from the Northeast Railfan Net roster page - but they don't identify the location or date. Pietrak does, says it was at Oil City, PA in (get this) 1936 as the 'last regularly scheduled assignment of a D16 on a passenger train'. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg
I curious if that's a standard tender and if it's out there somewhere on something else though.
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Yes that book. I can scan it if you need.
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Well, if that's a confirm that it's in there, then I'll just get a used copy of that book for my library.
Thanks guys!
For those of you that still think of this as puttering around on the Strasburg and on old weedy branches, you really need to see this - I have this video - and this is one of those 'never to be repeated' runs:
1223 is running second fiddle and reminds me of the olympic track runner with the short legs but still keeping up...
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For those of you that still think of this as puttering around on the Strasburg and on old weedy branches, you really need to see this - I have this video - and this is one of those 'never to be repeated' runs:
10 PRINT “Fap”
20 GOTO 10
That is some serious hotness right there.
I’ve got a Model Power 4-4-0 that’s lettered up for PRR 1223. I use it with the Roundhouse set of old-timey cars that they decorated for the Strasburg. I figure the locomotive is about the same level of foobie as the cars, so they go together nicely. One day I might get brave enough to try and add belpaire shoulders to the boiler, but that requires paint matching.
Don’t know if you have already seen this one, but check out http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=D16sb-.gif&sel=ste&sz=sm&fr=
I can’t wait to see where this project goes!
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@randgust
So here is an overlay of the D16sb atop the Minitrix cast shell I have. I should mention that this shell came from THE Ted Brandon, the father of the Minitrix K4, via @mmagliaro .
You can see that the steam features are a bit off once the stack is aligned, and the smokebox diameter on the shell scales to 69.3" so its a little large.
You might also find that a little filing of the B6 cylinder castings might work too! They have an inward taper.
This diagram will get you started with the brass tubing though and you can see the cab is spot on, so you could just cut the cab off of an old B6. (I did this on my E6 conversion and grafted it onto a cut up K4 shell.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/2711-020220064430.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=14728)
Here is another comaprison using a nice side view of the D16SP from this page, scroll down to see the D16sb portion of the chart: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/prr_steam2.html (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/prr_steam2.html)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/2711-020220065554.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=14729)
@eric220 I have not yet measured an MP 4-4-0, but I have one for a similar conversion and will likely design a CAB/shoulder print to drop on.
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@Lemosteam I’d definitely be in the market for such a print, although it still leaves the paint matching problem.
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This is what's in the Cylopedia
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/109-020220151918.jpeg)
I can scan better if you like.
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You've got my attention too!
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I second using the B6 cab. But do note that the windows are different, the side walls are a little high than on the D16, and the rivet pattern isn't the same (if such things bother you). All of those, however, are fixable things, and starting off with a metal, very-close cab is a great way to start.
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D16sb is a fascinating subject for me also. For me, those huge drivers (compared to 31) made 1223 seem like a big engine. I also got to see it run as we only lived 10 miles or so from Strasburg.
The story I heard was the Eastern Shore of Maryland was 1223's haunt until the end of steam and it was then moved as part of the historical collection to Northumberland. The photo is from my father's collection when it was handling the branch line trains down there.
Bill Kepner
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Makes for a nice branchline passenger trains
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Of course, if you want a headlight...
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Thanks for the scan, Chris, that gets me on the search here.
Now for checking almost every steam mechanism I can think of to see if anything else has a 7'9" wheelbase spacing or darn close. I'm not necessarily looking at a 4-wheel frame, any 68" drivered 6-wheel frame might be modified... I was certainly surprised to see on my Jamco 4-6-2 project that ATSF had interchangeable main rods and many parts between the 4-8-4 classes and the 3400 4-6-2. Axle distances, main rods, cylinders...all the same.
I agree the B6 cab is close... I'm looking at what it would do if you cut the front wall off and shortened it to the proper length between the front window and the cab wall, maybe filed the rear windows larger. It's just plastic.
And that boiler just looks fat to me. You could make a 4-4-2 out of that, maybe... seems to have similar dimensions, but that doesn't look right to me for this. Like I said, making a boiler doesn't scare me any more, but getting a frame right... that's where I cheated on the 2-6-0 and used the Atlas frame and running gear. Because I plan on putting the motor in the tender with an NWSL universal I'm not governed by where the worm gear ends up as to motor placement.
I remember the Hello Dolly scenes.... but look in the background of that shot and see the elevated gate tower. Do they still have that somewhere? I don't remember seeing it anymore. Maybe it is where the LEMO tower is now.
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The D16sb is my holy grail of steam.
And something even higher than the holy grail for my dad.
I am all in for whatever I can do to 1. Help this build along. 2. Make an easy path for future builds (because if it's straight forward enough, I need to make 2).
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Thanks for the scan, Chris, that gets me on the search here.
Now for checking almost every steam mechanism I can think of to see if anything else has a 7'9" wheelbase spacing or darn close. I'm not necessarily looking at a 4-wheel frame, any 68" drivered 6-wheel frame might be modified... I was certainly surprised to see on my Jamco 4-6-2 project that ATSF had interchangeable main rods and many parts between the 4-8-4 classes and the 3400 4-6-2. Axle distances, main rods, cylinders...all the same.
I agree the B6 cab is close... I'm looking at what it would do if you cut the front wall off and shortened it to the proper length between the front window and the cab wall, maybe filed the rear windows larger. It's just plastic.
And that boiler just looks fat to me. You could make a 4-4-2 out of that, maybe... seems to have similar dimensions, but that doesn't look right to me for this. Like I said, making a boiler doesn't scare me any more, but getting a frame right... that's where I cheated on the 2-6-0 and used the Atlas frame and running gear. Because I plan on putting the motor in the tender with an NWSL universal I'm not governed by where the worm gear ends up as to motor placement.
I remember the Hello Dolly scenes.... but look in the background of that shot and see the elevated gate tower. Do they still have that somewhere? I don't remember seeing it anymore. Maybe it is where the LEMO tower is now.
I believe the B6 cab is metal like he rest of the shell, not plastic. Not sure if it makes too much of a difference to you, seeing the work you have done previously. I am following this build myself. How close is a Model Power 4-4-0 as a starting point? Build on that from the drivers up?
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@Lemosteam posted pics of a stripped B6 shell earlier in this thread showing the cab and boiler are a single piece of cast metal.
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I ended up with a resin copy of one...somehow...not entirely remember how.
I also have an MP 4-4-0 junker in my parts collection, and it is just..big. I know when I looked at it before I rejected it due to driver size and being a heck of a lot bigger than about anything, but that was before I came up with the idea of swapping drivers around surfaced.
What makes stuff like this interesting is that with 3D printing and Shapeways, you can't just limit yourself to what's already there. I was pretty surprised a couple times when I asked designers to rerun a model and see if it could be printed in another scale, and it could be, and was. And, as everybody knows, the search feature on Shapeways is beyond awful, so you can even search for the same thing minutes apart and get different results, or have designers send you links that are ALREADY ON SHAPEWAYS that didn't show up in the same search. I had that happen on Walter Vail's stuff.
The Jamco Junker project altered my perspective on this kind of project; I got the locomotive from 'auction', the fantastic tender from Dirk (ATSF models), the trailing truck and cab from Shapeways. All-out no-holds barred resource search on what could work.
At the moment, the biggest focus is finding a modifiable frame with two axles 7'9" spaced that can accommodate 68" drivers, and with that the rods and cylinders. I've scratchbuilt cabs, I can do it with good drawings, but if there's something already out there I'm not too proud to use it. I'm not into hacking up expensive new stuff, but there's sure a lot of legacy 'parts only' and 'damaged' stuff out there if you are patient; my Jamco was the victim of what appeared to be a nose dive onto the floor followed by unloving storage.
OK, so looking at the B6 on Spookshow: http://www.spookshow.net/loco/trix060.html
Is it my imagination, or is the axle spacing unequal? Can anybody measure the axle centers in N scale feet on the lead to middle driver, and middle to end driver? I agree that the cylinders and crosshead guides might have some potential here, and the gear tower goes to the middle driver. I know the driver diameter is wrong, but I also know that a Trix frame was well-designed and solid...
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Lou D had cast a run many years ago- even some without a Belpaire firebox.
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Here's what I measured up on what I have on hand to check that seemed possible:
(http://www.randgust.com/D16%20frame%20comparison.jpg)
So, that's a surprise. The ideal combination - so far - would be to put Rivarossi wheels on the Bachmann frame.... Which is naturally tender drive anyway.
The Bachmann frame/boiler will have to be tremendously whacked up, but you have a flyworm in there, and the axles can either be turned or the drivers drilled or a little of both. I have scrap drivers and and a scrap frame, so this is a low-cost experiment. That also solves the problem of rods fitting the drivers, the Bachmann rods aren't half bad and are metal.
But if somebody else finds something with 7'9" axle spacing, speak up!
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Nice chart Randy!
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Here's what I measured up on what I have on hand to check that seemed possible:
(http://www.randgust.com/D16%20frame%20comparison.jpg)
So, that's a surprise. The ideal combination - so far - would be to put Rivarossi wheels on the Bachmann frame.... Which is naturally tender drive anyway.
and the axles can either be turned or the drivers drilled or a little of both. I have scrap drivers and and a scrap frame, so this is a low-cost experiment. That also solves the problem of rods fitting the drivers, the Bachmann rods aren't half bad and are metal.
But if somebody else finds something with 7'9" axle spacing, speak up!
@randgust If you have some axle, gear, wheel cobbling to be done give me a shout. I'll bet we can get you where you need to be. 8)
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I don't have one - but if anybody has a Bachmann 4-6-0 it sure looks worth investigating as the drivers look kind of wide-spaced between axles and the driver diameter is undetermined. Anybody up for a measurement?
http://www.spookshow.net/loco/spec460.html
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Bachmann 2-6-0
7'6" Between Driver 1 and 2
6'7" Between Driver 2 and 3
Bachmann 4-6-0
6'3" Between Drivers 1 and 2 and 3
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Never occurred to me on the Bachmann 2-6-0 - but what's the driver diameter on that?
http://www.spookshow.net/loco/spec260.html
I don't think its impossible.... the #1 and #2 axles are geared
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I got .349" wheels on the Bachmann 2-6-0. Yes #1 and 2 are gear driven.
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Huh. 56" by my calculation. Spacing close, drivers not. So far still looking like attacking an old Bachmann.
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Here is the plan the Bachmann 2-6-0 is based on:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/109-060220001634.jpeg)
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So, anyway, I got an old, beat-up copy of the Cyclopedia for under $20. WOW, what a book. How did I ever miss that? It also turns out that's the source for the mystery Heisler drawing image I've seen for years and always wondered where it came from.
Got the plan out of it, precisely resized it to HO as a .JPG ( a whole lot easier to measure precisely on an HO plan rather than N, BTW) and have a question.
The cab length measures 7' 9" back wall to front wall. How does that compare to the Trix B6 cab? How far off is it?
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Randy:
Going by my Mascot scale rule, the B-6 cab is (as close a I can see) 8'9"- one foot too long.
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So, anyway, I got an old, beat-up copy of the Cyclopedia for under $20. WOW, what a book. How did I ever miss that? It also turns out that's the source for the mystery Heisler drawing image I've seen for years and always wondered where it came from.
Got the plan out of it, precisely resized it to HO as a .JPG ( a whole lot easier to measure precisely on an HO plan rather than N, BTW) and have a question.
The cab length measures 7' 9" back wall to front wall. How does that compare to the Trix B6 cab? How far off is it?
@randgust , I might suggest trying a more accurate method of scaling a printed copy as the horizontal proportion can be different than the vertical. After all a printout is an optical conversion from image to paper.
As a CAD designer for many years, I have had to "REMASTER" actual part blueprints into 3D models. And as you might imagine, many dimensions were missing. I would then employ the following method to remaster that part to the drawing (and then corroborate from physical part measurements).
There are known horizontal and vertical dimensions on your drawing. Use an accurate scale, or better yet a digital caliper to measure off the drawing. In this case the wheelbase horizontally. Draw a line through the centers of the axle on the paper and when you measure, measure along this line. Ii try to find the visual center of the printed line- after all they have width too.
Similarly, measure the un-dimensioned lines of the features you want in this case the cab length.
Create a mathematical proportion of the known dimension vs. the actual caliper measurement and this will give you a ratio to apply to all horizontal measurements from that point on, write that on the print.
Do the same for vertical measurements and you will see the ratios are slightly different.
Apply these ratios to all of your measurements. Using this method makes the scale of the printout irrelevant, however the larger the print, the finer the printed lines, i.e. getting closer to their imaginary "center".
It soulnds like alot of work, but it really isn't.
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I simply edit the .JPG and push it into Word and start printing it and resizing it, adjusting it until the dimensioned vertical and horizontal measurements precisely line up with a scale ruler. I'll go through half a dozen sheets of paper that way, but it's a lot easier than recalculating dimensions when ANY printed drawing can be off against the stated dimensions on it.
I did use that proportional calculation scale method for many years off of photos and drawings (pre-Photoshop) and used it to scratchbuild many of the structures on my layout if I had something as simple as a door height, rail length, or almost anything to work from. It does work.
And yeah, that's what I thought, the cab is about a foot long. But the drawings are good enough along with the photos I can scratch it.
I had to go purely from photos on my steel Lima 2-6-0 cab as the original cab was wood on the drawings. Really hard but worth it. It was kind of painful because the first time I tried it I had to admit the entire cab was about a foot too tall and I got to do it all over. At least here I have the right drawings to work from.
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You know about the PRR cab on Shapeways, right?
https://www.shapeways.com/product/NP6SE6DCR/n-scale-pennsylvania-h9-e6-g5-cab?optionId=12210016&li=marketplace
It's understandable if you don't, their search is SO BAD.
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Nope, hadn't found that one and I've searched for PRR everything in N and 1:160 and cabs and.....
Wow, is that a classic case of the 3D looks spot on and the FUD print looks like striated crap. Worth a $10 bet though? Probably.
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So, anyway, I got an old, beat-up copy of the Cyclopedia for under $20. WOW, what a book. How did I ever miss that? It also turns out that's the source for the mystery Heisler drawing image I've seen for years and always wondered where it came from.
got a copy on my desk...
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Nope, hadn't found that one and I've searched for PRR everything in N and 1:160 and cabs and.....
Wow, is that a classic case of the 3D looks spot on and the FUD print looks like striated crap. Worth a $10 bet though? Probably.
My dad has two. I think they look ok from what I remember.
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Here is artwork for an etched brass cab for an E6 Atlantic that I did several years ago, as well as some source drawings.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/1350-110220123040-149061537.jpeg)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/1350-110220123043-149262242.jpeg)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/1350-110220123040-149062062.jpeg)
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Whoa. That's game changing!
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https://www.shapeways.com/product/NP6SE6DCR/n-scale-pennsylvania-h9-e6-g5-cab?optionId=12210016&li=marketplace
@Ed Kapuscinski. It was a long time ago when I drew those up! The intent was to cook up a H9 kit for the Bachmann 2-8-0 mechanism, then I realized the size difference between a scale H9 boiler/cab and the mechanism And gave up. I figured the least I could do for all the Pennsy fans was to make the pieces available.
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The shapeways one looks really close... not sure about the roof ventilator panel, and the D16 cab rear edge does not have the 'lip/lifter' across the back (easily removed) and it needs to have transition curves between the rear wall and the cab overhang added. The model shot looks pretty nice.
And that etched one is a great design... if nothing else, a good guide for cutting styrene and adding Archer rivets.
The ATSF steel cab that I got from Shapeways was so badly striated it looked like wood paneling. I had to add a .005 overlay on the sides and redo the rivets, end result was great though.
I'm not quite ready to really jump on the project for real until I see if I can actually mount a Rivarossi 68" driver on a Bachmann axle... it's not a natural thing as the axle diameter is significantly larger.. but if that works...
For the few that might have not seen it - this is my scratchbuild on an Atlas 2-6-0 chassis of my Lima 2-6-0 - Hickory Valley 5 - from drawings I got from the California State Railroad Museum drawing collection. That's a styrene cab and brass-tube boiler. Locomotive is just about the same size as a D16 so that's why I think I can pull this off.
http://www.randgust.com/HVR5042%20final%205.jpg
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@Ed Kapuscinski. It was a long time ago when I drew those up! The intent was to cook up a H9 kit for the Bachmann 2-8-0 mechanism, then I realized the size difference between a scale H9 boiler/cab and the mechanism And gave up. I figured the least I could do for all the Pennsy fans was to make the pieces available.
Oh man. I thought so!
Have you looked at a PRR H6 instead?
I'm currently in the process of faking a PRR styled Consol using a Bachmann one and a bunch of detail parts. It won't be correct, but it'll be fine for a fake tourist railroad.
Have you considered making a version of that cab specifically for the Model Power 2-6-0? With that cab it's actually a decently close approximation of a PRR F3 which happened to come with and without the annoying belpaire firebox.
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As I'm thumbing through the pages this morning the banner at the top rotated to the PRR 2-8-0 that the late great @3rdRail built... It's really a solid model, and given the time he did it he must have rendered it in clay using the rib of another locomotive.
I can't help but wonder whatever became his work?
@randgust , you could probably cast your lot with Shapeways for the cab, the catalog picture is probably an early print. I think they are upping their game on the quality of output these days. But for the finest detail, I would go with the brass etching if it can be pulled off.
Lee
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The Bachmann axles are steel, but I successfully turned them down to the Rivarossi diameter of the wheel holes by holding them against a dremel diamond abrasive disk as no file I own would touch them. I'm JB Welding the axle to a set of Rivarossi drivers; I'll mangle up one of the old Bachmann 4-4-0 frame/bodies as a test to hold them. I'm concerned about cocentric and quartering but as the drivers are geared, you plan on a bit of rod slop. But this is all just stuff from the scrap pile so far. I'm reluctantly scrapping out my 'hardly ever used' Rivarossi 4-6-2 due to severe zinc pest on the frame. I'd saved it for years but this is a good alternative project.
I think one of the reasons that I just have to try this is that my very first 'electric train' wasn't Lionel, even then I was the odd man out and I had American Flyer - the Casey Jones set - which had a very PRR-style 4-4-0 that at the time I didn't recognize at all. But any SPF that ever sees it does, and it was imprinted on me fairly early.
https://traindr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/american-flyer-locomotive-21668-casey-jones.jpg
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Those are the engines that held court on Delmarva into the 1940s. Or very much like them. The sun gradually set on them as bigger PRR steam was demoted from the mains to the hinterlands in the late 40s and 50s.
Lee
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Speaking of the hotness. I don't know any red blooded American who can see this and not get the vapors.
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Where and when was this excursion? Jointed rail under catenary??
Speaking of the hotness. I don't know any red blooded American who can see this and not get the vapors.
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Speaking of the hotness. I don't know any red blooded American who can see this and not get the vapors.
Or a vapor lock! :)
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A milestone - I think - I hope....
After two false starts, I successfully mounted a Rivarossi driver on the Bachmann axle, and murderously carved up the Bachmann frame/boiler to clear 68" drivers. And it's actually cocentric, and it spins nicely. That 'should mean' that I can use Bachmann side rods and original gears and get this thing quartered up properly. And hopefully turn the flanges down a bit, although I really don't need to for my own use.
Until I get the four drivers, worm, and rods working smoothly for this Frankensteam I'm trying not to get distracted by other details.
It's very much a Sid project from Toy story, when I'm buzzing out big chunks of a Bachmann boiler with the Dremel to clear bigger drivers.
http://www.cornel1801.com/disney/Toy-Story-1995/pictures/53.jpg
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Where and when was this excursion? Jointed rail under catenary??
Whoa, you don't know about those excursions from the 80s?
There were a couple. They were amazing.
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OK, well, I'm stalled for a bit.
I got the Rivarossi main drivers on the Bachmann axle flanges turned and quartered, and then discovered I'm missing more parts from my junker Bachmann 4-4-0 than I thought, and it's kind of a killer until I get them.
This was an old one - the original Hong Kong run - with the thicker hex-nut universal shaft and the metal gears. That shaft is missing. I'm also missing the screw that holds the bottom plate to the worm shaft bearing block between the two worms. And I'd taken the main drive rods (crosshead to driver) out for the Climax B project, so I am missing those as well. Those would come in handy I think, although it's looking like the Rivarossi cylinders and crosshead may work with some modification.
As I'm using the Bachmann frame, the Bachmann side rods (driver to driver) fit precisely, and even fit well over the Rivarossi bushings.
But for lack of that screw, and the universal shaft end (which I intend to remount to an NWSL universal shaft back to my gearhead motor) I'm stopped. Bachmann doesn't have the parts, and I'm watching on auction sites for any 'nonworking junkers' with the right parts.
So I'll ask here as well if anybody has a junker that I can get for parts. I'll find some eventually as junkers show up, but I was making pretty good progress until this issue came up.
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I see them all the time on Facebook N Scale selling groups. I may be able to broker one for you if you don't FB.
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Parts on the way.... from another Railwire member. Good thing because it's a real crapshoot out there finding the right generation of the mechanisms when I've already started this using the oldest one.
And as I was digging around in my ample box of surplus body shell parts (maybe the missing driveshaft was in the bottom??) I found something else I knew I had somewhere but couldn't find... two nice resin copies of the Trix B6 boiler casting. It really looks like that cab could be shortened to the proper size.
I got them from somebody off the forum in trade for something else, and my pack rat mentality dating back to my teenage years is once again justified.
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Quick update - NickelPlate759 (George) had an ancient Bachmann 4-4-0 he sold me for the parts I needed, so I'm no longer stalled.
Four 68" drivers mounted, quartered, Bachmann rods put on, and turned with old motor in old tender for a test. No binding, but I'm concerned how cocentric they are and if this is going to cause visible wobble. We'll see.
The 14' 8" bolster-to-bolster distance is just a foot shorter than the frame bolster-to-bolster on a Kato caboose frame, so I cut one of those up, shortened it, spliced it, and reassembled it with JB Weld. I've never found a solvent cement that will touch that frame plastic. I'll use the original trucks until testing is complete, then we'll talk about replacement sideframes. Truck wheelbase is good along with wheel diameter. With solid 8x8 tender pickup I may be able to get away with not having the locomotive drivers electrically hot. We'll see.
Next steps are to fabricated the gearhead, drawbar, and driveshaft replacement and I really want to see whether or not this driver replacement is actually going to work or if I just can't get those wheels good enough. I thought they'd be miserable to quarter as they are geared; I cut a slot in one end like Rivarossi did and the Bachmann rods fit perfectly.
Cut the resin cab off of one of the two resin Trix shells (Somebody on the forums made these...back in the Atlas days..???) and it's too big but it's a heck of a lot easier to work with a resin cab to resize it than a metal one. The boiler is just WAY too fat, anyway.
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OK, so this thing is finally moving under its own power, however odd and awkward it may look at the moment.
Here's the good news - I'm dead-on so far on dimensions for drivers, wheelbase, and believe it or not, distance from rear axle to first axle of tender.
The cut down Kato caboose frame is also dead-on for dimensions so far.
You may not believe it, but I did turn down the flanges on the Rivarossi 68" drivers. Those are the Bachmann rods on there. The gearhead motor (Kato 12V + 5.14:1 Gizmoszone gearhead) is quiet and powerful. Now that it's connected and running, the speed range is excellent.
Now for the bad news. I've got some issues with the front axle being a bit off for wobble. Not terrible, but before I start really working on this thing I've got to get those four driver wheels as good as I can possibly make them and its not good enough yet. This project reminds me of the TP56 critter; I'd rather experiment and see what actually happens than debate it to death, but that doesn't mean I've got a perfect concept to start and somebody that chimes in may have some great suggestions. Happily, all the problems are the alignment of the remounted wheels on the Bachmann axles - other than that, the whole tender drive thing work really, really well through that driveshaft - very smooth. So now I get to pull it apart and start working on the drivers with a micrometer to see how good I can get this.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104601.jpg)
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104602.jpg)
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I love watching such insanity come to life.
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@randgust, looks great so far.
Some questions:
Do you have more driver wheels?
Are the centers of the drivers plastic or metal?
What tools do you have to create/enlarge the holes in the drivers?
Did you press fit or try a line to line slip fit?
Did you have to modify the axle diameters at the ends at all?
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I turned the Bachmann axles down to match the diameter of the Rivarossi ones and put on a shoulder. I did not redrill or change the Rivarossi wheels that have plastic centers. The challenge was to press the wheels back on both squarely and in quarter, it's good, but not good enough, so I've got to do more work on that.
I shouldered up the Bachmann axles in a dremel and worked slowly on them with a diamond file (axles appear to be steel). Checked constantly with a micrometer. Put them back on with ACC although I got better as I went for press fit.
I also have enough Bachmann axles and Rivarossi drivers to do the whole thing over if I'd have to, but so far that seems extreme.
Right now it's just enough of a wobble to irritate me.
I wasn't sure how well the driveshaft idea would work (NWSL universal and shaft into the Bachmann shaft end), but even at full slip it's steady and there's no indication of issues when it hits curves.
I'll carve off all of the old 4-4-0 boiler that doesn't hold the worm and the frame, but I've got to beat the wobble first.
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Perpendicuularity and runout on the axle may be the issue.. I used a drill press when I did this. It allowed me to rest my arms on the bed and hold the file very steady without having to hold the dremel.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/14/2711-140220211049-149731062.jpeg)
I have found that many diamond files are not particularly square from side to face because of the way the diamond grit is added to the parent metal. Try a fine flat file to make the diameter and shoulder simultaneously. That shaft is likely soft metal.
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I want to crowdsource a "machine shop in a box" for projects like this: a good mini-mill, a good mini-lathe and maybe a surface grinder that can travel around for worthy projects.
I guess we'd also want to include a 1:160 Keith Rucker or a full size @narrowminded for good measure, lol.
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Well, no normal swiss file I had would even touch those old Bachmann axles, so that's how I figured it was steel. I actually ended up using the side of the Dremel diamond cutoff wheel as a file, which is absolutely flat on the side. Worked great.
The problem that I had without a proper press is getting those wheels (with plastic centers) squared up against the new axle. First wheel can be put on with a drill press, but pressing the second wheel on is a lot harder. I still think I can tweak it as long as a) its properly in quarter, and the rods aren't binding against the gear drive (which they are not) and 2) I have a really good micrometer to check the variance of the inside dimensions to find the wobble areas. I didn't bother to do this until I could see if this entire wacky drive train idea was actually going to work, which apparently it will.
When I twisted the driveshaft with my fingers it looked OK, but running at low speed under actual power you can see the wobble.
If I had really good tools here I probably would have left the Rivarossi axles alone and set up a brand new frame, just sayin'.
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Well, here's where I'm at. I decided that although the one driver isn't perfect, it means I need to snag another Rivarossi 4-6-2 main driver, which I don't have. I have about everything else including extra Bachmann axles. But, I can always swap that out in the future, meanwhile, I have kept building this thing as there are a lot of other mechanism, fit, and drive issues to solve.
I made a raw brass boiler out of K&S tubing and tapered it with Squadron, filed smooth. The cylinders are the original Rivarossi, filed to shape as they are the right dimensions but need tapered to the inside.
The pilot truck is 'good enough', particularly when it has to clear the cylinders. While I've turned the driver flanges I haven't bothered with the pilot truck yet, that can be later as well.
Today I fit the brass pilot deck, cylinders, and test fit the brass boiler on the heavily cut-down Bachmann chassis. And I test fit the resin copy of the Trix cab, which is too long, but you get a feel for the overall dimensions pretty quickly.
The key dimensions - wheelbase, wheel diameter, boiler diameter, top of rail to top of boiler....are all dead-on to my PRR drawings. As well as the tender wheelbase and length from the rear driver.
There's lots and lots of room in the boiler to add weight and rebalance it to the axles. So... I'm roughing out the critical issues here and test-running it to see how this goes. The one good thing is that the pilot truck clears the cylinders down to a 9 3/4 curve.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104604.jpg)
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104605.jpg)
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Well, here's where I'm at.
The pilot truck is 'good enough', particularly when it has to clear the cylinders. While I've turned the driver flanges I haven't bothered with the pilot truck yet, that can be later as well.
I hope that you reconsider.
Those look comically small. They are bout 25" in diameter (with the flange being 36" diameter!). Turning the flanges down will make them look even weirder. If those tiny wheels with huge flanges clear the cylinders, larger wheels with smaller flanges should too, and would look 1000% better. I think that low flange 28" or 33" wheels would work and look more realistic.
It pains me to see someone spending all that time to almost scratchbuild a model while leaving somethgin very visible (like pilot wheels) looking so unrealistic.
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Randy,
Do you still need a Rivarossi 4-6-2- main driver? (the one with the threaded post insert on it)?
PM me.
-- Max
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I just scored a broken junker 4-6-2 on the auction site last night, which will give me a bunch of parts, including another main driver set and another pilot truck.
The main driver is already planned to go to Narrowminded (Mark) so that he can do a better job of mounting the driver on the Bachmann axle than I can with what tools I have.
The second pilot truck, or more accurately the frame, allows me to experiment with putting in bigger pilot wheels with smaller flanges and see if they will still work. I wasn't sure how much room I would end up with under the pilot deck; I think it will work, worth a try anyway. But even on an 11" curve, the deflection of the pilot truck laterally is ...wow. It's really moving around under there. Nothing against improving appearance, but the darn thing still has to run well or it's just not worth doing.
Shapeways has nice stuff like the slatted pilot front, water scoop, and other details for down the road.
Now that I have the cylinders finalized for position and alignment I'm trying to figure out how to do a single (top) crosshead guide and crosshead. It's got to have enough lateral movement to handle the bigger drivers and not be completely fragile, but I can't believe I can't do better than the Rivarossi one. Even the Trix one off a junker 4-6-2 would appear to be an improvement. I can fabricate/modify a new main rod here, that's the easy part. Steam parts are hard to come by; I'm open to suggestion here about what else might work.
I was trying to figure out what to do for a smokebox front as that's actually a bigger boiler; turns out the old Rapido 0-6-0 has a smokebox front that will work nicely if I don't come across something better in the meanwhile. Problem with RLW is that you're guessing on dimensions.
Another thing that sorta bugs me is that I'm looking at 1046 as it would have appeared in 1926-28; that's when PRR was in the middle of modernizing things on this class. Shots I have of it are earlier or later. I do have to admit that some of the real oddball stuff on these appeals to me like the tilted piston valves to work with the original inside Stephenson valve gear. Was there any other class that designed custom cylinders tilted like this to use older-style valve gear?
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Another thing that sorta bugs me is that I'm looking at 1046 as it would have appeared in 1926-28; that's when PRR was in the middle of modernizing things on this class. Shots I have of it are earlier or later. I do have to admit that some of the real oddball stuff on these appeals to me like the tilted piston valves to work with the original inside Stephenson valve gear.
In what ways would the appearance of the 1046 in 1926-28 differ from what is shown in this photo?
(http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg)
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That's the locomotive at Oil City near the end of service about 1937. From Stauffer's book, the 'original' features were rather obvious in that the class originally had the 'big' drivers, oil headlights up on top of the boiler, no turbogenerator, and early on, slide valves instead of pistons (different cylinders). The headlight is kind of the big deal to me in terms of appearance issues. It looks to me like PRR took their sweet time in converting everything over to electric headlights. I'm pretty sure I'm going with the electric 'modern' version, unless somebody produces a shot of 1046 in that year range with the other details. Here's a similar class at Olean (other end) with the older headlight) in 1916 but the drivers and pistons redone:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr6217.jpg
Also note the difference in the pilot; this may be locomotive specific or a standard modification. I'm a PRR greenhorn, really, other than my immediate local area.
Oh, and I don't know that I mentioned it, but I did score a 1930 Official Guide (first quarter, so the depression hadn't hit the schedules yet) and it proved what my father had related. There were two trains a day up and down the river Oil City-Olean; both locals, and one pair was identified as a motorcar and the other was not. So his comments that 'the first year they had a doodlebug and the second year they didn't' proved out. I'm assuming the 1930 schedule wasn't much different from what he rode, and that explained it. By the last run in 1937 the doodlebug was gone with only the 4-4-0 remaining, all the passenger service was dropped up the valley that year.
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The Pennsy DEFINITELY took its time doing headlight conversions.
For example, the first Ka4s and I1s (their massive 2-10-0s) came with oil headlights.
[attachimg=1]
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Randy, when I made my SP&S 4-4-2 out of one of those Rivarossi frames, I put Fox Valley 33" wheels into the original pilot wheel frame. I did have to ream out the circular passages in those little "fingers" that hold the axles in, because the FVM axle is thicker than the original Atlas axle. You need to be really careful there, because there isn't a lot of metal to spare in the fingers. I think I used a little 1.5mm chucking reamer and just twirled it inside the circular openings with my fingers.
I had to add an insulating washer behind the "dead" wheel in each wheelset, because it kept finding a way for the back of the wheel to graze the frame and short out. I buzzed off the pointy ends of the axles with a Dremel as well.
Here's a pic. It does fit, and it can definitely make it around 15" curves. I don't know how much tighter it could go. 11" is probably pushing it.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/17/2667-260520200921.jpeg)
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I don't need 9 3/4 but I do need 11" for the modules and my reversing loops. But with a second (expendable) pilot truck we'll give something like this a shot.
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Once or twice I have notched the back of the cylinders to clear wheels, but sometimes you'd be surprised what will work as is.
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I got a set of those Fox Valley wheels from somewhere, at least I think they are Fox Valley by studying the dimensions and photos. Also have some of the narrow-tread BLMA that have thinner axles. When I studied it, I think it will work, at least worth a shot here when I get the second pilot truck in. If nothing else I'll then have two interchangeable pilot trucks, one with wheels that Peteski can tolerate looking at without pain and another one for when I actually have to run it!
Anyway, great suggestion Max. But I've got a long way to go on this thing. The one thing that is proven, now, at least to me is that the tender drive with the gearhead is 100% solid as a concept here, just like in my 2-6-0. Great speed range and torque.
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The one thing that is proven, now, at least to me is that the tender drive with the gearhead is 100% solid as a concept here, just like in my 2-6-0. Great speed range and torque.
True. It is used on some N scale European steam locos (mosty by Arnold). But it doesn't leave much room for a sound decoder, and a decent-size speaker enclosure. Not a problem if it is a DC model.
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It is with great reluctance and with tongue firmly in cheek that I feel obligated to announce that....
Peteski was right.
I was highly skeptical that this would work; the spare junker pilot truck was modified with the FVM wheels and the points ground off per Max. When I first tried it, it derailed on about everything (ah-HA!) and I decided to add just a little slip of lead on top of the lead axle.
Damn. Works great. Now this is a pretty crude test of the idea, but it's still a tracking test at this point, and I put it through the entire layout and it neither hung nor derailed. So.... I have to admit it. It worked.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104607.jpg)
Mark (Narrowminded) now has my spare driver set now and is attempting to make a more cocentric set than what I could with my tools.
This really runs pretty well. After I get the wobble out of the lead driver set I think I have a winner, at least for the drive.
I have to admit I'm still stumped by finding a suitable single crosshead guide and piston with enough travel - any NKP 2-8-4 assembly would work but when Bachmann's part website opened back up, yup, out of stock. Can't find much of anything else so far.
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Five year old me is bored to see the D16 AGAIN this weekend, since he loved 90.
But old me is beyond thrilled to see this coming together because he realizes how special 1223 was.
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While I was always intrigued by the 1223, three things really have pushed it over the edge for me. First was proving beyond a reasonable doubt that my father rode daily behind either 1046 or one of it sisters in 1926-28 and that a D16 ran right here until 1937. Second was that in the late 80's, I finally got to ride behind 1223 before its retirement. Two things immediately struck me; with a moderate-length train, it could REALLY accelerate, punched above its weight; i.e. obviously more horsepower than tractive effort. Second was how sharp and loud the exhaust was, she really barked. Those are the kind of things that a cold museum display can't show. And finally, that excursion videotape with it running at speed with the 7002 - OMG. It's one thing to putter along at 20mph, it's another thing to see them running at 60 or so on the Keystone Corridor.
So I'm not sure if this is the 'best' 4-4-0 ever developed, but when you really look at the technical details, it might have been. Pretty well evolved over time and not an obsolete design held over by accident. You can't necessarily say that about all PRR steam classes and I'm not an SPF, but yeah, there's a special place for D16's with me.
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And finally, that excursion videotape with it running at speed with the 7002 - OMG. It's one thing to putter along at 20mph, it's another thing to see them running at 60 or so on the Keystone Corridor.
So I'm not sure if this is the 'best' 4-4-0 ever developed, but when you really look at the technical details, it might have been. Pretty well evolved over time and not an obsolete design held over by accident. You can't necessarily say that about all PRR steam classes and I'm not an SPF, but yeah, there's a special place for D16's with me.
This photo gives me chills: https://railpictures.net/photo/199287/
I remember chasing it with my dad. You can keep your superpower steam, give me these ladies any day. Simply wow.
For those of you unfamiliar with what we're talking about, enjoy.
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Whoa. Hold the phone. You ever have one of those moments where your mind is blown?
I was just watching this:
/>
Holy crap. I REMEMBER that day even more now. I remember that CR TV train and being impressed.
Add that to my list of formative memories of why I love Big Blue.
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This photo gives me chills: https://railpictures.net/photo/199287/
I remember chasing it with my dad. You can keep your superpower steam, give me these ladies any day. Simply wow.
Perhaps Ed felt the steam excursion world shift on it's axis that very same afternoon when 14 of N&W's #611 23 cars left the rails injuring 150 people in the Great Dismal Swamp. Even through the NS trip was self insured and an excursion for RR employees and families, the industry was never the same. I think Kelly Anderson, now CMO for Strasburg, and if I remember correctly, fireman on 1223 this trip, said once over on RYPN it was clear to management as soon as they heard the news, their hope of running more mainline excursions were dashed and this trip would never be repeated. :( That new pony truck looks great!
Bob
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Perhaps Ed felt the steam excursion world shift on it's axis that very same afternoon when 14 of N&W's #611 23 cars left the rails injuring 150 people in the Great Dismal Swamp. Even through the NS trip was self insured and an excursion for RR employees and families, the industry was never the same. I think Kelly Anderson, now CMO for Strasburg, and if I remember correctly, fireman on 1223 this trip, said once over on RYPN it was clear to management as soon as they heard the news, their hope of running more mainline excursions were dashed and this trip would never be repeated. :( That new pony truck looks great!
Wow. Yeah. I never realized the incident was as bad as it was. Wow.
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Whoa. Hold the phone. You ever have one of those moments where your mind is blown?
I was just watching this:
/>
Holy crap. I REMEMBER that day even more now. I remember that CR TV train and being impressed.
Add that to my list of formative memories of why I love Big Blue.
I remember that too. Sad I didn't see it in person, but we had the VHS tape that the Strasburg made of it.
I often re-watch this video even in my post-Pennsy life because, well...dammit, that's real American railroading. It's downright pornographic.
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Update. Mark still has my drivers for a better truing up job, but meanwhile I got a junker MRC berkshire frame and running gear for a set of single crosshead guides and crosshead.
This actually works. Took some tweaking, still not done, but the general problems of crosshead travel, rod distance, alignment to the cylinder, all work. It's just lightly pinned in place with .020 wire now to test it in running. The rough boiler and cab are just for proportion, I have yet to cut that cab down to size.
It's not a perfect match to PRR but it's a heck of a lot closer than a double crosshead guide would look.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104608.jpg)
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Randy, probably not needed anymore, but there is somebody from Italy selling a few lots of original Rivarossi 4-6-2- parts: drivers, gears, and assorted mechanical parts. These are brand new, never-used, which is pretty darn rare for old RR steam. Just look for Rivarossi 110648.
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OK, so Mark Graulty (narrowminded) did an exceptional job doing another set of drivers the 'right way', properly bored straight and turning the Bachmann steel axles to precisely fit. She doesn't wobble a bit anymore, and also got the flanges turned. Put the whole mechanism back together, and no doubt about it, we now have a winner. This will work as mechanically good as anything I've got.
Cab is cut down, smokebox cut, things starting to move.
So now it's time to actually start thinking of this as a model. With all the issues that brings. I refused to think about any of these problems until I got the mechanism working right. Lots of parts to track down.
While I've got the tender frame and trucks working the way I want, I keep looking for the magic bullet on the tender body. Back to the locomotive I'm modeling here - 1046 - it looks to me (as a non PRR expert) that that is still the 'stock' tender class 55P55A.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg
I do have a side drawing. I was digging around on Shapeways and somebody has a nice N "H9" tender body out there with no class identification, but I don't think its the same tender. Or maybe it is.
The D16 clearance diagram clearly identified the 'stock' tender as 55P55A :
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=D16sb-E48868.gif&sel=ste&sz=sm&fr=
against this listing: http://www.wsbcos.com/tenders.htm that doesn't even show up.
and back to this Shapeways print: https://www.shapeways.com/product/3K74LLPMW/pennsylvania-h9-2-8-0-tender-in-n-scale-with-z-sc?optionId=7763121&li=shops
That looks right, but is it? C'mon PRR guys. I've already looked up the clearance diagram on H9's/10's and they don't put a tender class on it, only the capacity, and it doesn't look the same. Or maybe not.
Somewhat baffled. I could scratch this body in brass and add rivet lines and may have to yet, but I'll exhaust any other options first.
It's comforting that the right tender truck sideframes and pilot are out there, which makes you search that miserable Shapeways marketplace that much harder.
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I'm glad to hear they are working for you, Randy. :) That job took way longer than it should have as the actual work is really not too much. Problem was I had my machines down and put away making room for other household projects and it took some time until I could get them set up again. Those household projects have also delayed my track and other projects and now I'm in Nevada on a six week cross country trek. Retirement is hard work! I'll be getting back on my own projects once this trip is over. 8)
I'll be watching and enjoying the progress posts and if you run into any more of those stumbling blocks that really require some precision to accomplish the needed result don't hesitate to contact me. I'm happy to help where I can. 8)
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OK, so the fun is really beginning on hunting down parts. Still struggling with the tender. I'd like it to be brass so I'm reviewing both the Shapeways options, etched brass sides from RLW, and about every RTR tender body out there.
The resin cab - which is a resin copy of the Trix 0-6-0 cab, was about a foot too long and a foot too high, surprisingly, the cab roof is spot on. I took it off the bottom and cut the front cab wall off and remounted it. Still have to enlarge the windows a bit.
One of the next really hard parts is done. I found out from my 2-6-0 project that you really, really want the running boards to be brass. Like it or not, that's how a steam model is handled by real 1:1 fingers, so they want to be brass and soldered solid on the boiler shell.
The method I came up with is to drill supports under the running boards after marking them with a surface gauge scriber, drill .020 wire underneath in a couple spots, and use those horizontal support wires to align and hold the brass .010 boards. Then solder them solidly from underneath either spot or beading. If it gets a little chunky just grind it off later, as long as the joints are solid you're good.
I'm no purist, I mix media constantly, resin, brass, plastic, whatever is handy but I'll go for weight whenever I can and strength wherever I can as well, so the basic boiler is brass and I lean that way on the tender shell too. I used to do shells and parts a lot in styrene but when you get below .020 the long-term strength is an issue. Brass isn't that much harder to use, really, and now that you can get the Archer rivets you can do it right. Other than some selected parts I'm not too keen on RP, it's so darn brittle.
I've been pleasantly surprised by the little detail that the position of 1223 in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is where it's easily viewed from the viewing catwalk, so the number of published overhead photos was numerous to get some otherwise unobtainable details.
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I don't think that H9 tender is "typical" for a D16 class. It looks too long. The PRR 4-4-0 lived a very long life and you'll find photos of them with many different tenders, especially in the 1930s and later for the ones that hung on that long. But if you're after the original "stock" tender they were built with, we need a drawing of the 55P55a.
I have two ideas.
1. There were some feature articles on them published in Trains and other magazines over the years. One was in the Aug 1954 issue of Trains (I don't have it). Maybe if somebody here has it, they can look and see if there was a drawing.
2. Maybe you could phone the folks at Strasburg and ask? Perhaps they have a drawing they'll send you for a fee.
Since you said you had a side drawing, I assume you have the one that's in the Kalmbach locomotive cylclopedia. But if not, there is one in there and you can at least get the correct length, wheelbase, height from that. There is also a really excellent straight-on side photo of a D16 (#1223) taken in 1937 with what looks like the original tender.
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@randgust I got you message about the tender print. That was a looooong time ago, and I don't remember the specs off of the top of my head. I have some down time Wednesday evening that I can find the drawings and check for you. If it helps, the drawings I used were from the H9 drawings in the Model Railroader Cyclopedia steam locomotives.
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Thanks. Well, I dug around in my legacy collection of steam stuff (and that's a LOT OF STUFF) looking for an air pump I was sure I had and found I still have most of an RLW etched tender side that I just might be able to work. I just thought I had remaining scraps, not two intact sides. I have the MR drawings, so I know I need a basic tender side about 24' 6" by 6'6" above the frame. The rivet lines aren't perfect, and I'll have to 'stretch' the back somewhat, but I was surprised I a) had it b) could get 6'6 out of the side if I was really creative. This is the RGS20 brass sheet. I've used this brass material for my Climax B and my Shay tanks, and it came out really well. Most times the Nn3 tank sides are just too low, but in this case they are spaced far apart enough I'll be able to use that material to make them taller and just maybe add some more rivet lines.
Also found a really nice GHQ C-16 08 single air pump, wow, nice, I'll use that. I was hoping I still had one.
Now, just to prove I'm actually doing something here other than posting, here's the basic boiler now, running boards on, cab fitted but not finished, smokebox cut loose (will have to the filed to fit) and the GHQ air pump with the hole bored for it in the running board.... The styrene Belpaire top is just loose for now, still looks 'high' to me, other than length it's not sure of precise dimensions other than looking in photos. Needs more sanding.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104609.jpg)
Now, on the running gear, here's the Rivarossi wheels Mark turned and trued, the massively whacked Bachmann frame, and the NKP Berk crosshead, shortened main rod, and thickened Bachmann side rod (I tried attaching .010x.020 and it worked, amazing). And the Peteski lead truck, which has yet to derail and looks so much better.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104610.jpg)
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Looking really nice, Randy. I am enjoying this project.
One thing that continues to stand out, and really does even more now that you have the driver flanges turned down, is
how darn good those old Rivarossi wheels were. Made in the 1960s, they are still really beautiful see-thru drivers with nice delicate spokes.
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I take it from the pictures that you were able to get the assembly, gauging, and quartering dialed in. Did that go smoothly or was it a chore?
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The fixture I made to mount the wheels on the axles took me about a week to figure out and make. It held the driver by the tread and flange while my press pushed the axle in, then a top part held the top driver in quarter and pressed it on square. It had stops to keep it in gauge. I used the old Rivarossi driver on the original axle as a test case and to set the gauge tolerances. Once I got the fixture figured out I had both wheels mounted in about 10 minutes. I had to adjust the quarter slightly on the rear axle after the dual Bachmann worms engaged, but your tolerances were dead on for a tight fit that still allowed minor tweaking.
It really runs well. I wouldn't invest this much time in this now if I weren't completely satisfied on performance. Getting the crosshead, pistons and siderods in with no binding at all was another big step and that went well. Lots and lots of puzzles remain but the mechanism is pretty darn solid. One of the biggest surprises to me is wondering how I was going to get the electrical pickup back on the drivers. Well, the 8x8 Kato caboose trucks under the tender work so well I think I'm not going to bother. The only wires going to the locomotive will be for the headlight. I can really load the boiler up with weight and some more on the tender, too.
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It's always nice to hear that the best laid plans actually worked. 8) :D
And per @mmagliaro, those ARE some good looking wheels. 8)
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Hey, it's still alive. And I've got to get more pictures done.
I got the entire back end of the locomotive fabricated out of brass and secured to the frame. And got an annoying growl out of the mechanism
Have been working on the cab, and concluded that the more weight I could stuff in the cab, the more I could use it as a counterweight to add more weight to the boiler. It appears intuitive to me that you still have to make an attempt to balance the weight on the drivers, and if you filled up the entire boiler with lead, it would be really nose heavy and be too heavy on the lead driver.
So I cut down the cab, shortened the front wall, modified the roofline, widened out the windows, and started concealing weight in it. By the time I was done I got the cab itself up to a whopping 7.6 grams. And, just because I can complicate almost anything, I figured how to drill and tap from under the running boards to make the cab removable with hidden screws. Not sure why but seemed like a good idea.
I'd shoved a round fishing sinker in the boiler to test with, it wasn't secured and was a temporary. For a permanent weight, I also wanted to be able to get it out as anything that can go wrong will, and I do want to have an operating headlight on a locomotive where there is no electrical pickup now in the locomotive itself, so I'm running headlight power back to the tender. So I need to be able to get that out to do that step later.
Couldn't figure that out until I realized that I could use the next size smaller of K&S brass tubing and make an insert out of it by soldering a cap over one end and then pouring Type 160 metal in it in layers until I got the balance I wanted. Surprisingly, that worked, it' fits snugly but I can still get it right back out.
And now, this thing is HEAVY. I scaled it out last night at 56.8 grams without the tender, that's a little heavier than a Kato NW2. If I add more weight it's going to be nose-heavy, so we'll see if this works as well as I think it will. I only need to pull 2-3 cars with it anyway, the PRR Oil City-Olean local appears to have usually run with a baggage/RPO and a coach, or an RPO, baggage, and coach.
I'm back at the tender again, and there's a weight challenge there to get reliable electrical pickup, so I'm trying to add as much there as humanly possible to improve electrical pickup. Got the Dolphin truck sideframes on. I may live to regret this, but I'm not putting any electrical pickup on the locomotive as during testing, the tender 8x8 is that good and pickup wipers are one more thing to go wrong when I can only get 3 points anyway (one Rivarossi driver has a traction tire, remember). I can drag around a heavy tender when I have a boiler weighted up as much as I do now.
The D16sb drawings I have show a water scoop and I got one, but did ALL those PRR tenders have one as a standard class feature? No water pans up this way for sure.
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OK, some progress shots.
Now that the locomotive is weighted up, I need to load up the tender as well for the final electrical contact tests.
And that starts a chain reaction that I need to get the tender body made to figure out how much space I have and where it is.
When I did HVRR #5, I used etched brass tender sheets from RLW, which wouldn't seem to work as they are Nn3 parts, but I discovered they work for small steam, were wonderfully done, and were fairly easy to work with. I'd ordered doubles because I didn't know what I'd have to splice, and now years later those stashed sheets are coming out. What worked was the dimension of the sides - this is a small tender, and I had to splice in more material to get a 10' wide tender and slightly longer. That's all soldered up here:
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104614.jpg)
I really like working in all brass when I can. It's taken me years to get my soldering skills up to par to splice sheets. And yes, I know I need to add those diagonal rivet lines that show so well, I'll add Archer rivet lines much later.
Here's how it looks from the top, fitting around the motor and gearhead:
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104613.jpg)
As you can see, there's room in there for lead, on the sides, and I'll hammer it out and add it probably today
And here's what this all looks like from the side. I was really pleased that 'in the end' the edge of the tender lines up with the bottom edge of the cab window (when you add weight and depress the pickup springs) and the trucks are 'tucked up inside' the frame edges as they should be:
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104611.jpg)
Now, I used black styrene .020 sheet to make the sill edges and drop it over the frame edges there. Those truck sideframes are Shapeways, filed the Kato truck sideframes off and added them.
So far, so good. And you can see how I modified the cab roofline, shortened it in height and length, and filed the windows out.
Hey, you guys got me the drawing source, without that this was just a someday dream. But this is about a 9 on the 10 scale for difficulty against my skills and tools.
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Loving me some PRR “Dolphin” trucks. Are those the ones I have that use Bachman needlepoint contacts?
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Nope, those are Kato caboose trucks in a shortened Kato caboose frame, filed off and replaced with the Shapeways printed sideframes.
I also got a PRR slotted pilot and the water scoop for the tender from Shapeways, although I'm not exactly sure that was standard equipment by 1927 on the survivors.
This is the third small tender I've built this way, all of them are just wonderful performers, and the fifth use of the RLW etched tender brass sides. And, of course, putting a gearhead in the tender goes back to Chris333's first effort on the Atlas 2-6-0.
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Beautiful. I'm loving this!
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Excellent proportions and ride height! This is going to look fantastic, man.
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... and I'm not seeing the pics. :(
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... and I'm not seeing the pics. :(
Mark, you are likely running into a known problem about mixed (secure/insecure) Web contents. Go to the Admin section ( https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?board=11.0 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?board=11.0) ) and there, towards the top there are 3 threads about not seeing photos while using Chrome (still valid info even if you arent using Chrome).
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Mark, you are likely running into a known problem about mixed (secure/insecure) Web contents. Go to the Admin section ( https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?board=11.0 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?board=11.0) ) and there, towards the top there are 3 threads about not seeing photos while using Chrome (still valid info even if you arent using Chrome).
8) It works. Now, do I need to worry about being "Not secure"?
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8) It works. Now, do I need to worry about being "Not secure"?
No, the not-secure contents is just photos. I don't think those could be hacked.
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Remember your settings here are only your settings here for this site - not a universal browser setting. You'd have to have a hacked image posted to Railwire.
What baffles me is that unlike other websites, if you have a non-secure image posting link, at least you get the empty image box showing so you know there is an image there you can't see. My signature shows that way here but my other posted images don't, and that's a Railwire-exclusive mystery.
Meanwhile, back at the project, after loading up the tender with lead and reassembling the driveshaft again, I ran it around the layout some more. The lead dampened a lot of the tender/motor vibration and you can hear it clicking over rail joints. Mark's (Narrowminded) precision work on the drivers and axles was a real turning point, as the fixed wheelbase on this thing is so short than any irregularity on the drivers is magnified, and it's running flat and smooth. I've done so many special builds that didn't really perform the way I expected (remember the TP56 critter build on the Roco truck?) that it's just a complete relief that this is running the way I'd hoped it might.
The other 'fun thing' I want to do is pose this beside a borrowed Model Power 4-4-0 for comparison to see just how different it really looks. I certainly have my suspicions, but it still would be nice to see if this has really been worth the battle.
http://www.spookshow.net/loco/mp440.html
OK, here's nose to nose. Now, I did a little research, and that MP 4-4-0 is apparently a 2-6-0 boiler on a 4-4-0 chassis and really has no prototype. There were some pretty big 1920's 4-4-0's (SP had a couple classes) but when you look at the data, the D16 was still heavier than those classes, had more tractive effort, and from a performance standpoint, had no apologies. And the MP is...just...big. And while the MP 4-4-0 isn't bad, there's no passing it off as a D16 either.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104615.jpg)
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@randgust I just noticed something that you might like to try. It may not matter but would you like a driveshaft with the visible center span reduced to make it less visible? I doubt it would be very hard to do. :| Let me know. :)
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Right now, by the time I get everything done, the locomotive-tender distance will be just about right on with the prototype measurements. I'd set it up that with with the 'temporary' drawbar and the NWSL shafting. Surprisingly, it's working really well and is now in the 'if it works don't mess with it' category. Once I get the front tender sill constructed it will close up even more. The other thing I've found is at least one shot of my 1046 with cab curtains in the winter. Huh.
One odd feature I've noticed is that the locomotive and the tender both have steps, and the locomotive steps were attached to a 'beam' across the back of the firebox. They were also oddly bent in some fashion. Strasburg removed the locomotive steps on the 1223, but all the vintage shots I have show both steps in place. I 'think' I can bend up GHQ tender steps to mimic the dual steps, maybe not.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr139s.jpg shows the oddball steps
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1223.jpg shows 1223 doesn't have them
Shots to follow here, I have the domes on, the Belpaire firebox, and the turret fashioned. The styrene Belpaire firebox was a fail, I decided to do it in brass instead and I'm glad I did.
The domes on this thing measured out almost exactly to the Lima sand and steam domes done by RLW, I had two left. When I talked to Marshall, I asked who made those Lima domes he sells, and he said 'I did! - for the Shay'. So if anybody else is looking at this, that's where the rounded domes come from, and get them while you can from Marshall.
I've got all the parts and the auxiliaries solved now, this is the fun part to me, working slowly on the final detailing and seeing how close I can make this. And for the 'standard railroad of the world' there's more than a few inconsistencies between locomotives here. I've selected 1046 as the most likely one to have been hauling my father around to college commutes.
I have had fun with this, and got a whole new respect for the D16sb's on the locobase statistical power and tractive effort comparatives to other 4-4-0's. I just knew when I rode behind it at Strasburg, it accelerated rather sharply with an authoritative bark out of the stack, didn't struggle on the hill, and sounded great. But I was really hooked watching that doubleheader video.
For those that bemoan it being stuffed and mounted, it was a painful decision by Strasburg. Boiler was going to require a complete reconstruction after the new FRA safety standards came in, the same maximum pressure safety calculations that made the 1361 K4 boiler so suspect got virtually all similar Belpaire firebox PRR designs - they were right on the edge to begin with. Better to preserve the only one remaining of its kind.
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Interesting about the cab steps. Last night I was actually just looking very closely in that same area for my H3 to make a deck that I can position a crewman on but won't kill its ability to go around curves.
It has steps there too but they're not as substantial as those. They're basically a board, a casting, and a post hanging down.
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More inexplicable idiosyncrasies in PRR:
I've already stumbled on the missing locomotive cab steps on the 1223 that it no longer has (right beside the tender steps) but as I'm detailing mine I noticed something else odd. My 1046 photos clearly show that the 'signature' mini-walkway hanging under the cab, along with the grab rail on top of the cab, is not there. At least not in 1937. 1223 certainly has it. This is obviously so somebody can clean the outside cab windows by precariously hanging on to the handrail and about a 3" wide footbar just under the cab.
So, PRR guys, was this standard practice or not? Really nice shot of 2082 and it's set up like mine, but without engine steps, but without walkway
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr2082s.jpg
Same here: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1035s.jpg
Now look at 1223, under the cab edge and the handrail above the windows: https://www.railpictures.net/photo/755299/
And she had them in service, and yes, they really stick out. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1223sa.jpg
As I have a shot of 1046 more or less on it's last trip in 1937, I'm going without, but the more I work on this the more individual locomotive oddballs within the class I'm discovering on details.
If you look at other classes like the L-1 the seem to be a standard feature, but I'm guessing a 'late steam' feature
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1487s.jpg
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Well, it's finally starting to look like a locomotive. I got past several things I had no real idea how I was going to do. This is kind of a duplicate post but I'll add a little more detail here.
The brass Belpaire firebox replaced the styrene effort, soldered on.
Cast metal domes on, RLW castings. Tender sills on fabricated from styrene, with cast metal GHQ tender steps bent to PRR style, and an MT coupler on the rear. Turret is brass tube, whistle is made but not installed, and I realized I had some GHQ pops....to be added. The detail study on this thing has not only proven that PRR had lots of variation, but the one you pick may always be the oddball. Even things like the placement of the air compressor is all over the place on the left side.
Shapeways printed pilot is on - from the Trix K4 details set, as well as the resin smokebox front that I figured out how to make press-in. Engineering the headlight will be this week now, which is a lot more interesting because the locomotive is electrically dead - everything is in the tender so I've got to route wires up there as well as the LED. I went to extra effort to make the boiler weight removable from the cab end, and the smokebox front removable, just to plan for the difficulty of that one.
The cast stack had to be shortened a foot, and the taper, fillet and rough stack mounting flange are today's effort, it's just perched on there for a test. The vertical brake cylinder castings under the cab were robbed from an Atlas 2-6-0 left over from one of my other builds. I'm still mystified were the injectors are as I haven't found them yet, in the cab? The main reservoir is under the front of the boiler and I have to simulate that too.
I noticed the cab looks a little tilted, I didn't put the mounting screws in from under the running board and should have for the shot. After all this tinkering I was almost afraid to reassemble everything and run it with a train, but it's still a quiet and smooth runner despite my tendency to muck things up as I 'improve' them. I'll have to do a video here now to prove not only my concept but Mark's machining skills on the drivers.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104616.jpg)
Frankly, when I was hacking up the Bachmann frame with the precision of a chainsaw I had no idea how I'd get here, it's a true exercise in seat-of-the-pants engineering for each step forward. It's not like I had this all figured out or anything! I encourage just diving in and seeing where you end up.
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More inexplicable idiosyncrasies in PRR:
I've already stumbled on the missing locomotive cab steps on the 1223 that it no longer has (right beside the tender steps) but as I'm detailing mine I noticed something else odd. My 1046 photos clearly show that the 'signature' mini-walkway hanging under the cab, along with the grab rail on top of the cab, is not there. At least not in 1937. 1223 certainly has it. This is obviously so somebody can clean the outside cab windows by precariously hanging on to the handrail and about a 3" wide footbar just under the cab.
So, PRR guys, was this standard practice or not? Really nice shot of 2082 and it's set up like mine, but without engine steps, but without walkway
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr2082s.jpg
Same here: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1035s.jpg
Now look at 1223, under the cab edge and the handrail above the windows: https://www.railpictures.net/photo/755299/
And she had them in service, and yes, they really stick out. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1223sa.jpg
As I have a shot of 1046 more or less on it's last trip in 1937, I'm going without, but the more I work on this the more individual locomotive oddballs within the class I'm discovering on details.
If you look at other classes like the L-1 the seem to be a standard feature, but I'm guessing a 'late steam' feature
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1487s.jpg
You're modeling the Standard Railroad of the World.
So of course there are plenty of differences!
I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with timing.
Keep in mind, 1223, as you see her, is a late 19th century locomotive at the end of a nearly 50 year service span. Most of her siblings disappeared 20 years earlier, so lacked the later modifications that she has.
Hell, even "7002" is quite a bit more backdated looking.
When you start looking, you'll go even crazier.
Try not to pay attention to the pipes coming from the sand dome, too, now that I mention them.
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OK, some updates.
First, we have a smokebox front. This was sawed off the resin copy of the 0-6-0 boiler, epoxied to a brass tube that fits the INTERIOR of the boiler tube so that it is a press-fit. Then filed to shape to fit the outside diameter. GMM handrail standoffs, number plate (mounted on a nail) and a cast brass Pyle headlight from Republic.
Bracket is scratchbuilt brass. Now, drilling out the headlight and getting the golden-white LED in there just barely worked, but it did. The wires on this thing get routed all the way back to a plug in the tender.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104619.jpg)
I pretty much finished up the chassis, and it's going to be painted first. When it does get painted, a lot of detail on how this was done gets obliterated. You can see how little is left of the original Bachmann 4-4-0 frame here (gray plastic), original Bachmann is now just the worm, a ground-off portion of the boiler, and the metal plate on the bottom. Rivarossi cylinders, heavily modified. Rivarossi drivers, Bachmann siderod with added depth; a spliced Bachmann + MRC main rod, MRC Berkshire crosshead and crosshead guide. Lead truck frame Rivarossi with the the Petoski suggested metal wheels. RP printed pilot, coupler, markers. Scratch pilot deck, steps, cut lever, valve gear and main reservoir. GMM brake shoes.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104620.jpg)
The amazing part to me is that it's dimensionally checking out against the drawing. Getting the axle spacing right with the drivers as the key first issue on the whole deal so that it's not any more of a compromise than it has to be.
The boiler is moving along nicely, but lots more to do here. At least it's my favorite part - wire detail, studying photos and seeing what I can add. And I'll never get to the whistle-cord level of detail that Max has on his 0-6-0, but hopefully there's some inspiration here for others to think about taking something like this on when you REALLY have a particular locomotive you want.
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Randy, that is truly inspirational! But what a little Frankenstein; I wouldn’t think one could combine so many parts from different manufacturers, but you obviously did and can.Time to revisit my boxfuls of project parts...
Very nice work!
Otto
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One of the last 'I really have no idea how to do this and never did it before' issues, but you just dive in anyway - is doing the air cooling coils on the engineer side. They are very distinctive. They have changed a bit, but you're basically into air piping all the way under the running board from the cylinder steam chest all the way to the back cab wall. It looks to me like they were added with the modernization (electric headlights, etc.) so mine should have it. Like most things though I've discovered that they were not all the same, and 1223 is not necessarily the same as mine.
But it still breaks down into four pipes above the driver ending up with two on the front end; very fine, figured they hang down about 24 inches.
There might be an etched brass part somewhere, but it still probably wouldn't exactly match. So I'm trying to find a way to solder up wire to do it.
I started with an aluminum jig - absorbs heat, easy to drill, and solder won't stick to it.... I scribed it out and drilled it to thread the wire in.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104622.jpg)
I made the supports out of Details West .010 x .018 bar, and the air lines out of .010 phosphor bronze wire. Soldering it was probably harder than I thought it would be, but I can still trim it up with a sharp Xacto to take some of the blobs out.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104623.jpg)
At least it came out straight and strong, and with heat sink clips on it I should be able to mount it OK.
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Max made some etched hangers for cooling pipes. Not sure if he has any left or not.
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How do you plan to do the turnbacks where the pipes change direction?
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For unknown reasons, whereever the turnbacks were (way under the running board?) they certainly aren't visible like on a normal cooling coil. See this shot. It is interesting that the piping pattern here is not the same as on 1223, and it's also missing the footboards under the cab like 1046.
https://sites.google.com/site/prrd16steamlocomotives/_/rsrc/1472850271538/Home/PRR%20D16sb%201401%20Webshot.jpg?height=330&width=600
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Max made some etched hangers for cooling pipes. Not sure if he has any left or not.
I'm afraid those are all gone except for some slightly defective odds and ends (defective meaning the holes weren't completely etched through... and they can be made to work if you twirl the point of a #11 blade in each hole to open it up a tad... but it's a real pain).
I think Randy, that your jig is great and your cooling line array looks terrific. I've done them like that, only on a block of wood (doesn't absorb heat so the soldering goes easier). Your array is really accurate and straight. I like it.
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OK, so after a lot of trimming and bending, here's what I've got, hopefully the next shot will be when it is mounted under the running board.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104624.jpg)
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After looking at a bunch of pictures of those things, I don't think they are cooling lines. They don't return like a radiator coil, The lines all seem to go some place. Different versions of the loco's have piping breaking off and leaving the group in different places so what you did is exactly right. They look like lines to power various appliances on the loco.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1401s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr2082s.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1035s.jpg
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It's on, I can see I've got a little more straightening to do in a couple spots....wow, that was hard. Glad it's done. If I don't have to make anything else like that for a while I'm good.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104625.jpg)
I'm not sure at all about the lines. I've studied 1223, and it looks like the two forward lines end up routed to the main air reservoir under the boiler. But the entire piping of these gets interesting; I know there has to be a steam heat line and an air brake line but there's one more line than that on many shots.
As far as I can tell, the handrails were the electrical conduits, there are junction boxes visible around the dynamo coming off the handrails.
Whatever PRR was up to, it was evolving, because studying 1223's piping only proved it's not the same even though it kinda looks like it in general.
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OK, so I think I have to prove it actually runs......
(excuse the ATSF scenery and cars, this will be primarily a T-trak module PRR baby)
After about three evenings of running this hard, I came to one conclusion - flanges that fine on a lead truck are just too derailment-prone, even with a weight on it - tends to climb the outside rail on curves at speed. I found some nice metal 33" wheels, blackened, with a wider tread and deeper flange and made a different lead truck. That works flawlessly and I didn't go back to the tiny Rivarossi wheels either. The narrow tread was another problem with my turnouts, I had a lot of frog drop but surprisingly no derailments. But other than that, no issues at all, and all I have left is to finish up the tender and some cab handrails.
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Watching that on a 65" was a wonderful experience.
Once it's done, we need to arrange a photo shoot with it on my Strasburg NTRAK module.
*****, that reminds me... maybe it's time to make some Strasburg TTRAK modules. Hmm.
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Wonderful job Randy!
@Ed Kapuscinski and then you can add your dad's H3 to the experience too!
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Wonderful job Randy!
@Ed Kapuscinski and then you can add your dad's H3 to the experience too!
I almost have to make an 1187 version now!
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Coming out beautifully, Randy. Runs great.
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OK, well, here and there I've been slowly finishing up the tender. I got Shapeways and some etched parts, added the final details, and it turns out the most difficult parts is squeezing everything in the tender body and getting it secured down as a 'snap fit'. I 'think' I got it.
Keystone Details PRR stuff has been great, the water scoop on the tender is just terrific and the other Shapeways parts are almost all his:
http://www.keystonedetails.com/products/n-scale-details
Anyway, I'm now to the point where I can't do any more assembly without painting some of the stuff that will be inaccessible - frame, inside of cab, etc. so these are the last shots before I have to tear it all back down and start painting. Hopefully it all goes back together this way again! So, last shots showing the 'secrets' of what went in the soup.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104627.jpg)
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104629.jpg)
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104630.jpg)
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104631.jpg)
Right now the workbench is groaning under winter custom build projects and painting, so not much time to work on my own stuff.
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Wow. The only thing one could say she's missing is an oil headlight!
Or... some "Strasburg Rail Road" sublettering on the cab :)
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Ed, gimme a break here. As much as I love & respect 1223, my 'dad's engine', from my research, is the 1046, again here in Oil City, PA about 1937 or so. Studying this compared to 1223 revealed a lot, including this still had the locomotive steps (removed on 1223), position of the compressor, whistle, etc. And an electric headlight. And no sexy paint striped PRR scheme either. Dad's time was 1926-28 riding behind it, no photos from that era, but there were only a handful of D16sb's assigned to Oil City for the Oil City-Olean local and the 1046 was the last to go.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg And I've never found a RH side shot of it. Or any shots in this immediate area.
If this project hasn't done anything else, it's exposed me to the absurd individual details of the 'standard railroad of the world' rivaling about any other roster I've seen on a locomotive by locomotive basis over time. Frankly, I can't believe this one would have still had a water scoop but it's such a cool detail I put it in anyway.
On my L1, I did Badger Brunswick green, and then weathered it down with chalks and it came out looking 'normal', and not really a green engine. 1046 wasn't awful, but it was certainly weathered a bit and hadn't been wiped down in a while. From the PRR shots I've seen of the era in this region, cleanliness was next to impossible. But the lettering and numbers are clear, at least the jacket wasn't showing anything other than a coat of soot, and it didn't look like it was on it's last run - which this may have been.
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Just stunning!
Otto
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Ed, gimme a break here. As much as I love & respect 1223, my 'dad's engine', from my research, is the 1046, again here in Oil City, PA about 1937 or so. Studying this compared to 1223 revealed a lot, including this still had the locomotive steps (removed on 1223), position of the compressor, whistle, etc. And an electric headlight. And no sexy paint striped PRR scheme either. Dad's time was 1926-28 riding behind it, no photos from that era, but there were only a handful of D16sb's assigned to Oil City for the Oil City-Olean local and the 1046 was the last to go.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg And I've never found a RH side shot of it. Or any shots in this immediate area.
If this project hasn't done anything else, it's exposed me to the absurd individual details of the 'standard railroad of the world' rivaling about any other roster I've seen on a locomotive by locomotive basis over time. Frankly, I can't believe this one would have still had a water scoop but it's such a cool detail I put it in anyway.
On my L1, I did Badger Brunswick green, and then weathered it down with chalks and it came out looking 'normal', and not really a green engine. 1046 wasn't awful, but it was certainly weathered a bit and hadn't been wiped down in a while. From the PRR shots I've seen of the era in this region, cleanliness was next to impossible. But the lettering and numbers are clear, at least the jacket wasn't showing anything other than a coat of soot, and it didn't look like it was on it's last run - which this may have been.
I know, I know :)
That's what Photoshop is for!!!
Someday when we can people again, we can setup a time to do a photo shoot on my Strasburg NTRAK modules.
In the meantime, let me just say again: this is f'ing fantastic.
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Randy, this is really a nice piece of work. The wire details are nice and I really like the contour of the Belpaire firebox. I do have one criticism, if I may. The stack looks kind of "curvy" to me, probably a product of it being soft white metal. The stack is such a prominent detail that I think this stands out on a model that otherwise to my eye has such beautiful, crisp details.
This is a terrific engine. It runs great. And I've said it before, but people should really pay attention to how beautiful those Rivarossi drivers look. After 50 years, they really hold their own against current models with such nice see-thru spoked centers.
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From anybody but Max, I'd probably take offense, but from Max, I'll just pick up a file and work on it some more before paint. That's a Detail Associates stack that I had to shorten to come in at the right height above the boiler. And, I've found out that this is why you want to photo the bejeesus out of something, because you just can't see this stuff (you really can't) looking at it with the naked eye. But it shows up in a photo.
There's been 1001 things that haven't looked quite right on this project to me, and the camera has found most of them, the most egregious being the cab alignment and proportional size way back when. Peteski picked on my pilot wheels and I'm glad he did, even though I'm now on my third set before I was satisfied myself. I still wish I had a better rivet pattern on the tender, but short of custom etching it what I've got is better than anything else I could come up with, and I'm not about to NOT do it over N scale rivet issues.
What you can't see is how demanding I can be on performance. I'd hate to reveal the number of projects abandoned because they don't work well enough despite how well they might look. Favorite example being my scratchbuilt 4-wheel critters (EMC 40 and 25-tonner) that look great and really are a novelty rather than a practical switcher. The EMC 40 turned into a flatcar load. The 25-tonner is amazing, but nobody (including me) actually wants to switch with it so it's rather interesting scenery. This baby though, this one is a real honey, and built to take it. I'm looking forward to having it operational at Altoona when this COVID stuff clears. This entire project almost got scrapped when I first put the drivers on and couldn't get rid of a very noticeable wobble myself. Without Mark Graulty (narrowminded) to fix that with his precision machine work on the axles and wheels to redo it right, this project would have been abandoned as an interesting yet unobtainable concept. She's dead-steady on her wheels now as you can see on that video, there was probably a 6" vertical bounce before.
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Randy,
Thank you.
I think that for anybody building a model to the level you are building the 4-4-0, you deserve polite, constructive criticism. Not only is it good manners, but it's the way an excellent model become an excellent "plus" model.
You said, "There's been 1001 things that haven't looked quite right on this project to me, and the camera has found most of them"
This. The human eye and our brains will perceive that "something's not quite right", or the "whole thing looks sloppy". But it takes the camera close-ups to see where the errors really are. I can fix things with an Optivisor on that I cannot fix without it, but that doesn't mean I can't see that "something is wrong" without it. Tidying up 101 very small precision errors makes the whole model look crisp and clean. The following analogy may not make sense to everybody, but it's like a band where the bass and drummer aren't quite locked together. Nothing may sound "off", but the whole band doesn't "groove".
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This entire project almost got scrapped when I first put the drivers on and couldn't get rid of a very noticeable wobble myself. Without Mark Graulty (narrowminded) to fix that with his precision machine work on the axles and wheels to redo it right, this project would have been abandoned as an interesting yet unobtainable concept. She's dead-steady on her wheels now as you can see on that video, there was probably a 6" vertical bounce before.
Thanks for the kind words, Randy. 8) In my lifetime I've been in the spot you were in and so I'm quite sympathetic to the feelings of frustration that arise from those kinds of problems. Problems that aren't a reflection on the modeler's skills but more on the extent of the tool box. It's why I've offered that assistance when I thought it might be helpful. Not everybody can justify the cost, time, and space investment of a whole machine tool just to cut a couple of parts once in a blue moon.
Meanwhile, the project is looking good! 8) I'm glad I could assist in a small way.
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Lovely D16sb 1914 B&W if you are on Facebook:
https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/156448505_4106654502698907_6305886177239109557_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=aPwVeBfpIP8AX8Ws2X3&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&tp=6&oh=b527d2bc004ce81ce4b54ca51d5658de&oe=6061C62F (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/156448505_4106654502698907_6305886177239109557_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=aPwVeBfpIP8AX8Ws2X3&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&tp=6&oh=b527d2bc004ce81ce4b54ca51d5658de&oe=6061C62F)
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Hey, I'm back after this baby has been sitting unpainted for months
I'm doing 1046, and if you go back in the thread you'll see the photo of it that I'm studying. Here's what I notice.
While 1223 is all nicely striped up right to the end of PRR service, 1046 was certainly not. You can still see a little gloss under the coal dusting, but not a whole lot. The only lettering visible is the PENNSYLVANIA and the locomotive number. While not filthy, definitely not shop-fresh and wiped down every night either.
Most PRR steam out in the boonies tended to look rather coal-dusty, while there might have been DGLE under there to begin with, it's under layers of coal smoke dust most of the time. I did my GHQ L-1 that way and it looks wonderful, so I'll do this one little less but similar. This starts out with the high-gloss paint scheme, decaling, and works up, this is the 'as released from the shop' builders photo.
The only real trick I pulled so far is the smokebox. If you look at 1046, it's a different shade, it's not jacketed. It was 'graphite' in PRR, and if you look at 1223 in the museum, it's gray-silver. Well that's not it either, not in service, so I started with Floquil Old Silver and then dry-rubbed Floquil Graphite in it with a stiff-edged brush, and that looks like about what I want.
Frame, wheels, etc. are all grimy black, that may be too gray, but I like to be able to see the detail, you certainly can in the 1046 photo.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg
That's one of those things that's like no matter how many color shots I see of PRR steam, the overall impression is always grimy black, except for the ones in the museum.
Yes, the boiler is nose high, I didn't put the screw in just for the photo, as I'm painting darn near everything as a separate assembly. Rods are already Neolubed at the moving parts, it wears off, but easy to put back on as well.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104634BW.jpg)
Yeah, this is just way, way too glossy, but I'm hoping that the same treatment I did with the L1 works here, which was a diluted wash of grimy black pretty much over everything, but not to the point you can't read lettering or tell original color.
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Excuse me while I go pick myself up off the floor.
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Update as this thing is 'almost' done. But there's a certain impression that modelers get that 'other people don't have these problems' and at this point I don't mine admitting mine, if for no other reason than to encourage others to hang in there despite themselves.
After those last shots, it's finish it up time. I did a couple washes of watered-down grimy black over the Badger PRR color, that worked well just like L-1, pretty much as planned. So then it's time to put on the coal pile. I'd just done it on the L-1, and did it as follows:
- layer of Walthers Goo on the bottom, sprinkle on coal bottom layer, let dry. This gives it some grip and also seals any leaks into the tender body when I hit it with diluted glue..
- build up the full coal pile, quick alcohol and water spray, hit with 50% diluted glue.
Easy, right? L-1 worked perfect, right? So this will too, right?
Next day I have unexplained white marks all over the tender body... whether glue or alcohol reaction to the paint, can't tell, but it doesn't wipe off. So, that's right, repaint the tender sides where damaged, as when I tried to clean it, some came off all the way down to the etched brass. %$##!!
That's never happened before. Oh well. So, repaint, re-wash.... blend in... damage repaired. 2 evenings later.
So then on to finishing some final details. And I have to admit, this is where Railwire comes in. The Max Factor. Without you guys I might have about stopped, but I'm looking at it wondering.....should I try that?? OK, crew in the cab. Yeesh, why did I fill everything full of lead, amputate the guys at the chest. And, my favorite, an evening of trying to understand and paint PRR classification lights. And paint lenses smaller than a fly eye on those helmet-style prints from Keystone Details. Gotta try though.
And finally, if you look back at the front, the number plate is painfully obvious. And tiny. And, yes, while I found a GHQ casting for the right one, round with the lip, it's still damn small. And of course, I'm not content with any old 4-digit number here, it's either "1046 or bust". Darn you Max. I've got to get on those individual gold PRR decaled digits inside that number plate.... as of last night, 3 of 4 in place.
I'm still looking at Max's bell rope on the 0-6-0, I think thats where I concede to the master, or say that I can't see it in the photo and maybe there's an air line to the bell and a cylinder out of sight. "Yeah, that's the ticket' But it's coming, and the part I like the best is the grimy black wash over the Badger is looking 'right', at least to me, and the even better part is that after all the painting, messing around, re-messing around, it still runs as good as it did before, and that part really, really is what I'm happy and somewhat astounded at. I've come up with a bunch of projects that look great on film and after the initial euphoria, have to admit that they are essentially practical failures - my EMC 40 leading that pack.
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Keep up the fight. You're doing the lord's work.
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Ha ha ha... I appreciate the flattering remarks...
And sooo... I'm a gonna "help" you! (Meaning I am going to goad you into doing the bell rope :) )
Here' s a photo from the RR Museum of PA, of a D16, that very clearly shows the bell rope, and where it hooks through a series
of what look like eye bolts on its way from the bell to the cab. (I marked all the points with white lines as you can see).
The nutty one is where it reaches the cab, and then takes a hard right turn running along the cab wall for a little bit before it
goes through the wall.
I've used .006" brass wire from Detail Associates or the rubbery thin Berkshire Junction EZ Line (which is what I used on the 0-6-0).
I think they both look nice. The EZ Line has the added feature that it actually wiggles and sways a little if you handle or breathe on the model, which is cool because it's more like real rope. But the brass wire is actually thinner, and once you get it in place and epoxy all the attachment points, you can just run a toothpick on it with light pressure from hook to hook, and each segment of it will form into a really natural dip.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/25/2667-300921134335.jpeg)
Oh, and as for engine numbers... ain't no easy way. I try to find at least two digits together that I need on the decal sheet,
but if they aren't there, then it's one digit at a time. I just put one on, let it set, use Solvaset to really stick it on there, let it thoroughly harden, put a brushful of Dullcote over it (spray some on a piece of cardboard, dip a little brush in it and swipe it over the decal)... and when all that is dry, do the next digit. This takes hours and hours of waiting time for drying, but not a lot of actual modeling time. Best to just chip away at these while you go work on something else so you won't be tempted to rush it,
move one of the existing digits, have to scrape them off and start again, utter sequences of VERY BAD WORDS... and so on.
(not that I've ever actually done that or anything...)
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So this is an odd option, but what about an actual hair?
I have plenty of german shepherd ones I could send you...
[attachimg=1]
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Ah, Max, but the trick is here (as I've stumbled into several times) I'm not doing the 1223, and 1046 has odd differences all over the place.
Looking at this photo of 1046, and blowing it up in Photoshop, I can see where the bell rope OUGHT to be and can see eyelets on the domes, but I can't see it. On the engineers side of the bell bracket, there's something, looks like an air line, which is making me wonder if it was converted to an air ringer but I can't see a cylinder or a crank, either..... but the bell crank on the fireman's side is certainly there.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg
I still want to try one of your bell rope stunts, but if some SPF can confirm that's an air ringer conversion I'm good with what I've done.
I'm just grateful that 1046 doesn't have all that decorative passenger striping. I think doing that pilot would put me over the edge. I've got all the number plate digits on except "6" and that is tonight. My tip is never, ever, try to do that many individual digits at once. One or two, let it dry, hit it with solvaset, come back the next day.
I'm grateful to my Dad for triggering my imagination on all this, the details he told me as a boy have been confirmed in my research, particularly the part about the doodlebug one year and a steam engine the second on the Oil City-Olean local. The 1930 Official Guide shows two daily 'trains' up and down the river, one being a motorcar and one a regular local - which according to several books, was the last regular assignment of a D16 by PRR up to 1937 when that photo was taken. Dad said it wasn't particularly fast, too many curves, never broke about 45mph. I know 1223 was in Delaware but it must have been the seasonal beach trains or specials or backup.
I still have property in the valley and I can look across the river and see that now-abandoned grade on the steep valley hillside, and it's not all that hard to imagine a short local behind a D16 charging upriver. I have one distinct memory of steam on that line as a kid, my dad made sure I saw it - a long line of slow-moving gray and weathered steam locomotives headed up the river, no smoke. I think what I saw was a deadheaded move to scrapping in Buffalo, maybe about 1960.
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Randy,
After more poking around, and looking in my books, I cannot find a single example of a PRR 4-4-0 that has a bell rope (except for the one in Strasburg), at least not one you can see in the photo. The rope is big enough, and goes past enough domes, that it would be almost impossible to not see at least some of it if it were there. So I vote with you, it is probably converted to a pneumatic ringer. The air line for those sometimes went right under the outer boiler jacket, so you might not even see the line, or it would be on the opposite side from where the rope is. Here's a photo of an O Scale brass model of an NP 2-8-2 with what clearly appears to be the air line poking up through the jacket and going to the bell. I highlighted it with a white arrow. You don't see a piston on the bell. The air line goes up inside it, and in N scale, you'd never see it. I put this little line poking up from the boiler on my N Scale model just because I saw it in this photo (but I also add a bell rope anyway, just because they are cool)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/25/2667-300921172149.jpeg)
So I think your "plausible deniability" is sound.
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OK, well, I may have dodged the bell rope idea but now look what you've done.
That great shot, and going back at looking at the photos. Man, that builders plate looks fantastic on your model (yeah, O scale, but still), and it's also painfully obvious on 1223 and 1046.
Other than home-brew decal printing of a PRR oval builders plate, does anybody have any builders plate decals like this? I have some diesel builders plate decals, but they are painfully not this shape. And they show up rather nicely, I do them regularly.
http://www.altoonaworks.info/pics/stuff/js_3078.jpg
I'm not going to be so fussy that they have to be "D16sb" and the right construction number, but a black oval with brass trim and lettering in it is probably a whole lot more noticeable than some other things I could do, and bigger than my fly-eye lens painting.
Ah....Duh. As I'm searching for non-existent decals I suddenly come up with GMM 160-42 GMM etched brass steam details, and not only are there two 'oval shaped' etched brass ones on there...but I'm pretty sure I have that set, as that's where I got the brake hangers from. :facepalm:
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OK, well, I think the story will be 'Max made me do it'....
Anyway, this is the numbering of the number board shot, which draws a solid '10' in the degree of difficulty in my world....
That's a GMM (not GHQ) etched number board in brass, painted black, decaled, and then gently scraped around the edges to expose the brass edge. That's as good as I can get it here.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104636.jpg)
Now on the builders plate, the ovals are too big, and while there's an oval underneath one of the number boards that's the right size, I found that Tichy actually made N steam builders plates - with color and relief - and found some on line, so I ordered a set. There's ovals in there that look PRR, along with several others. So it will be a few days until those show up.
You can also see the grimy black wash impact over the Badger PRR green, yeah, it barely looks green at all, mild sheen, just what I wanted.
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Excellent work Randy . Always a Inspiration , as well as many others here.
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I was rather stunned that these showed up on the auction site, because they showed up nowhere else, including the Tichy web site. May no longer be made? Anyway, Tichy Train Group Builders Plates 20 pr 10183N. (make sure you order with the N because the one without it is HO). Anyway, though absurdly small, very well done decals, raised, and in color.
Now for the skeptics... take a look.... you can actually see them. And you can see them from the 3-foot rule too. I found an oval pair with brass letters that looked "PRR" enough for me, and on they went. I like them so much I'm reluctant to weather them! Now I have to look around at my other steam and decide which ones have builders plates 'worthy' of this cherry on the top.
Darn you Max, you've got me looking at a detail I've intentionally ignored for years!
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104639.jpg)
That's about the cherry on the top for this project. It's supposed to be a nice day around here tomorrow and Monday, so I hope to drag the Trunkeyville T-trak module outside for some photos with 1046. It ran by that depot, it was a flagstop on its schedule.
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Randy,
I think the builder plate is an improvement. To be honest, I really can't read anything on it, but it's got the raised oval and some gold-ish lettering in it, and nobody can possibly read something like that with their unaided eyes, so it's a great detail to put on there.
And if I'm to blame for getting you to do it, well, I'm happy to be of service!
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Well, we're about getting to the end of this one. But here you go, this is what I was shooting for here.
I never, ever would have been able to get this 'done' (year and a half now) without help from the forum members on resources, and parts, ideas, inspiration - and particularly Mark 'Narrowminded' Graulty on doing the precise drive wheel and axle work after my first attempt failed. This one is really a team project in my eyes.
This one has been on my lifetime bucket list of builds since I found out about the last stomping grounds of D16's were right here in my back yard, literally, and that this one probably took my father to college. And when I first saw 1223 run back about 1988.
Compare this to the previous 'gloss' shot, this is just a light wash of acrylic Grimy Black over everything, and it's just barely greenish if you look for it, with a still-visible gloss underneath - compared to the 1046 photo I've got this is the general look. Weathered but not worn and well maintained. I'm really fussy about finish and paint (probably more so than rivet-level details) so 'hitting it' on the look to me is more important than exact detail where compromises have to be made. And it has to run as good as it looks or no point even finishing it.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104643L.jpg)
I've got one more shot for the group here of 1046 but I'll hold that off for the weekend update, and I'll be working on a video here too.
I still have another on my 'looks impossible' bucket list is a really accurate model of a 47-ton Heisler.... someday....
For those of you that have hung in here over the last year, yes, deep under this in the belly of the beast is still this drive .. which at the time, seemed like the most absurd way to ever attempt this, yet has actually worked. That 'temporary' brass wire drawbar hook is still in there, all but invisible, but proved to be the permanent method of attachment that was still removable.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104601.jpg)
The other thing I questioned was if completely abandoning the locomotive end for electrical pickup would work - relying only on the tender and end-axle pickups on the Kato caboose trucks. It's proven to be completely effective, and meant I had nothing dragging on the drivers - no wipers,no complication on the axles or plastic Bachmann frame. The only two wires between locomotive and tender do the headlight. That I never expected to actually work, allowed me to keep the traction tire axle, and absolutely balance the boiler weight on the axles so that it tracked right. This whole tender drive gearhead thing was pioneered by Chris333 in his Atlas 2-6-0, I'm just moving the ball downfield.
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Very nice! I still chuckle that this beautiful model hides the fact that internally it is the crappy Bachmann 4-4-0!
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The surviving parts that are Bachmann are only the worms and cup universal, the barest remnant of the plastic frame, side rods, and the axles. It most closely resembles Johnny Cash's approach of 'built it one piece at a time' at this point.....
And your contribution was abandoning the Rivarossi pilot truck wheels for something I admit looks far, far better on the wheels.
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OK, so for the record, I'll post this here as well - this was shot outside on the Trunkeyville T-trak module. This is, by no coincidence, on the final route of 1046 on the last scheduled runs of it in 1937 between Oil City and Olean. Trunkeyville is just a dead-end road to fishing cottages today, but was the original terminus of one of the first oil pipelines. The white house is still there and so is the remnant of the PRR concrete bridge. Penn Central abandoned the remaining part of the Salamanca Branch in 1976, and I ran a GP38 through here as a kid in 1975.
(http://www.randgust.com/D16104644L.jpg)
And just to prove, yes, it runs......pay no attention to the Arizona scenery.....
The video is a tad choppy, the locomotive isn't at all. That 'coming up the hill' lead shot shows just how steady Mark G got the wheels, because it's really a short, heavy locomotive balanced on a very short wheelbase, and until he improved my workmanship, pitched and rolled like a great lakes steamer in a November gale.
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Wow. Just wow. Another classic "best of the Railwire" build right there.
A perfect capture of the classic design from America's Broad Way of Commerce, the Standard Railroad of the World...the mighty, the late, the great Pennsylvania. Oh, and she runs like a dream too!
Let us make the sign of the keystone, in the name of the Curve, the Slope, and the Four Track Main, amen.
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That turned out great! and a unique piece of equipment that no one else has.
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Nicest photo you've posted of it to date, Randy. Very nice.
I enjoyed the video (and the background music...)
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Hard to believe that buried deep inside that gem are parts of the old Bachmann 4-4-0 I
donated. I remember how poorly that ran, and am astounded that it could be incorporated into something that works so nicely.
<edit> I just remembered that I didn't actually donate it - @randgust was kind enough to offer me a more-than-fair price for it </edit>
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super work, Randy . . . it is a great thead to follow.
the results are wonderful!
thanks for sharing...you work never disappoints . . .
sincerely
Gary
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Hard to believe that buried deep inside that gem are parts of the old Bachmann 4-4-0 I donated. I remember how poorly that ran, and am astounded that it could be incorporated into something that works so nicely.
I mentioned this in reply 150. I didn't know you were the donor of that loco (and I use that term loosely). :)
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I mentioned this in reply 150. I didn't know you were the donor of that loco (and I use that term loosely). :)
And it was a really OLD Bachmann 4-4-0 - I bought it new around 1985. I'm so pleased it is part of something good.
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And that was the first case of Railwire to the rescue on this one, because I already had a very old junk 4-4-0 and had started to use the parts, only to discover I'd lost the screw that holds the metal axle retainer plate to the plastic frame...... Getting that junker donated worked out even better when my ill-fated attempt at grinding the Bachmann axles down to fit the Rivarossi drivers didn't work out well and I needed another whole set of axles to let Mark try it. That junker saved the day.
The Bachmann 4-4-0 wouldn't be all that bad if the tender wheels/pickup were improved. It's unnecessarily soured a lot of tender-drive ideas, and now that I've done two of them with tender drives and gearheads, I'll never fight stuffing a motor in a boiler again.
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Randy. GTFO with this thing.
Seriously. Nuts.
I love it man!
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Absolutely AMAZING!!
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The Bachmann 4-4-0 wouldn't be all that bad if the tender wheels/pickup were improved. It's unnecessarily soured a lot of tender-drive ideas, and now that I've done two of them with tender drives and gearheads, I'll never fight stuffing a motor in a boiler again.
As far as the design of that model goes, I prefer calling it "motor in the tender" "or "tender motored" rather than "tender drive". Why? Because there are many N scale European models (mostly by Fleischmann) which have the motor in the tender driving the tender wheels. The tender pushes the dummy loco (and pulls the train on the other end). To me that is a true tender drive.