TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: rgengineoiler on March 11, 2019, 09:29:23 AM
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I used to own 2 of these manufactured by Rivaossi way way back in the day. They had pizza cutter drivers and ran so so. Detail was, well by today's standards, not all that great. I would like to see BLI jump into this and forget that not all locomotives are Pennsey. I of course am D&RGW and the Rio Grande had 10 of them. They were used hard for freight drags and pushers over Tenn. pass and other areas for many years up until 1956. Virginian, Northern Pacific, Great Northern, Western Pacific, Norfolk & Western, Santa Fe, Clinchfield, Duluth Messabe and Iron Range, Chesapeake and Ohio to name most.
My BLI 4-8-2 Mountains are great runners and a quality product. My experience with Athearn is very bad because of my Challenger which is in repair again. I do know that when Atlas purchased Life-Like, the molds for the Mallet's and 2-8-0's were not their and not found, at least so far as I know. Those Mallets, especially the second run in 2008 from Life-Like were real keepers according to the Spook which gave the second run an "A" I believe. I would think that there would be good profit in diving into an excellent run of Mallets in all these Railroads mentioned above and some undec's too. With all the tech now and great sound for our models this would be a knock out of the park for sure. I can see a sell out right now. So wake up manufactures and do something before it's to late for myself and others. I finally decided to speak up and have been thinking about it for a long time. So let's hear from others who run Steamers in N Scale... Doug R.
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I was hoping when Atlas bought the Walthers tooling that the 2-8-8-2 would be produced, but Atlas says that tooling was lost somehow. I am still hoping that the mallet could be reissued. I don't own one, but have been told that the second run with traction tires is a great performer.
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rengineoiler, When you said that Atlas didn't get the tooling for the "2-8-0", did you mean "0-8-0"? I don't think Life-Like made a steam 2-8-0.
And yes, the 0-8-0 and 2-8-8-2 would have been really valuable gems. I had a couple of 2-8-8-2's here to do some minor repairs for people and they ran superbly and looked beautiful. (the repairs were minor stuff like breakage to exterior parts brought on by man-handling)
So... where is the tooling for the 0-8-0 and 2-8-8-2? Walthers definitely used to have it because the were selling those engines under the Walthers name. Does anyone know what happened to it? Is this one of those mysterious arrangements with the manufacturer in China, where Walthers actually doesn't know where the tooling is? Or did Atlas simply not want to buy those two engines?
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The Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 is not a USRA 2-8-8-2 - it is a N&W Y6b.
Atlas imported a USRA 2-8-8-2 in the 1990s.
Lifelike, then Walthers imported a modified USRA 2-8-8-2 (in reality a N&W Y-3) in the first decade of this century.
I own examples except for the Atlas 2-8-8-2.
Mark
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Back in the late 70's I had a friend that had a pair of them - the Rivarossi's. They had traction tires for sure.
And they sure could pull. He had a basement-sized layout with 20" curves and a .75 percent ruling grade. One of those could handle, and I personally saw it - 100 of the 34' MT twin-bay hopper cars. Sure, those are small and light cars, but it rolled them. You really had to watch it as his track wasn't that great, but it did work. And it was working the locomotive hard, they would get warm. But in terms of what it could do, yeah, I can attest to it.
There's a lot of threads out there on what happened to the Rivarossi tooling, whether it got lost like some of the Roco did or had otherwise tragic results I can't remember, but other than finding one out on the auction sites I think you probably out of luck. If you put a better motor in one I think it would be worth it.
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@Atlas Paul
Did none of the Lifelike/Walthers Steam tooling come to Atlas?
- Lima Berkshire 2-8-4 (NKP)
- USRA 0-8-0
- N&W Y-3 modified USRA 2-8-8-2 (sold by N&W to some other roads in the 1940s)
Mark
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By the way, the Rivarossi/Rowa/MRC 2-8-8-2 flanges could run on code 55 track, so they aren't exactly "pizza cutters".
(unlike the 4-6-6-4, which happily buzzed away on the ties when testing on my c55 track).
Spookshow's review page quotes an MR review from 1970 that measured them at .026". That's just a hair big, but .026" will usually run on Atlas code 55 without grazing the ties. I've got stuff at .026" that works on Atlas c55. It is the very biggest I will dare use, though. At the very worst, you can run it on its back and graze just a couple of thousandths off the drivers with a file. Trimming down flanges when they are THAT close to being "okay" is much easier tha having to grind down .005" or more. This is a big deal when considering the viability of picking up old Rivarossi 2-8-8-2's and using them in the "modern" era.
Another nice touch is that they have a big motor cavity and a jointed connection to worms that ride in their own carriers. That makes swapping in a new motor a lot easier than on a model where you have to pull and swap the worm, and mount the motor precisely to mesh with existing tower gears.
The only other big things to watch out for are the ever-present crumbling Zamac frames and the clods of caked-in, hardened white grease. At this point, if the frame is solid, it's probably going to outlive all of us.
As for the grease, some of those old Rivarossi engines have so much of it, and it is so rock-hard, that the whole drive train is jammed solid. The only way to clean it is to take the whole thing apart down to the frames and wash it, wash it, wash it with mineral spirits or alcohol, and make sure there are no traces of it left, because once fresh oil hits traces of that grease, it will get carried around and then harden into a rock somewhere else (I know this from experience).
Detail may be lacking in those old bruisers, but as a daily runner, I think they are worth it.
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What a sad state of affairs if the Mallet and 0-8-0 tooling are truly "lost".
I keep hoping that they will somehow reappear...one can always hope, right?
I have one (and need another) of the LL first runs without traction tires, and it's an excellent runner as well as a looker. It can only pull about 12 cars up my 2.2% grades, but since I only use it in helper/pusher service, that's actually preferred; too much power on the rear end can cause derailments.
Other than weak motors, the original Roewa/MRC Y6b's were actually way ahead of their time as far as flanges and siderod details. I still have several, in pieces, that I acquired for someday "projects"...
Otto K.
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LL 2-8-8-2's show up on eBay and at train shows periodically, but they always fetch premium prices. People know they are good engines.
I don't have a 2-8-8-2 here... Are the drivers cuttable for traction tires? (I meant the first run ones). If the outer metal rim part has enough thickness, they can be cut. The Kato Mikado has a problem with that, in that their rims are too thin and if you try to cut even .005" into them, you are playing with fire and might cut right through the rim. I tried it a few times and managed to get it, but it's hit-or-miss, and since replacement drivers for those are commonly available, it's not a big deal.
But for the 2-8-8-2, cutting traction tire grooves may be the only way to fix the pulling on those earlier ones. If anyone has calipers and a good eye, post a guess at the rim thickness in here. It would be good to know.
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I guess I got lucky, my Lifelike Y3 (1st run) will pull 30 MTL box cars on level track.
Max, while the Rowa Y6b may have smaller flanges, I'm pretty sure the Concor/Rivarossi versions come with a pizza menu (will check mine later today).
Mark
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Personally I want another Berk. With traction tires and DCC/Sound. ;P
The S.
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I guess I got lucky, my Lifelike Y3 (1st run) will pull 30 MTL box cars on level track.
Max, while the Rowa Y6b may have smaller flanges, I'm pretty sure the Concor/Rivarossi versions come with a pizza menu (will check mine later today).
Mark
Really? They used different drivers? That would be interesting to know. I will wait in earnest for your report.
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Yes, you are right. 0-8-0 is correct. Just got to typing to fast I guess. I sold my Rivarossi's about 2010 or so when starting another layout using C55 track. Doug R
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...The only other big things to watch out for are the ever-present crumbling Zamac frames and the clods of caked-in, hardened white grease. At this point, if the frame is solid, it's probably going to outlive all of us.
As for the grease, some of those old Rivarossi engines have so much of it, and it is so rock-hard, that the whole drive train is jammed solid. The only way to clean it is to take the whole thing apart down to the frames and wash it, wash it, wash it with mineral spirits or alcohol, and make sure there are no traces of it left, because once fresh oil hits traces of that grease, it will get carried around and then harden into a rock somewhere else (I know this from experience).
Sounds very much like what's known in the Marklin Z Scale world as "HOS": "Hardened Oil Syndrome". Seems the older releases came lubed with a grease that contained some sort of "wax", so over time the stuff would harden and it would become impossible for the gears to turn. I guess many a motor were burned up by an unknowing user attempting to get their immoveable loco running by turning up the juice...
I personally have seen this; I have (4) Marklin Z scale locos. All were used when I got 'em, and all 4 needed a complete tear-down, cleaning and re-lube before they would run. (Fortunately I knew about "HOS" prior to getting any of them.)
Now they can sit for many months without turning a wheel, yet will all run smoothly and quietly now that that stuff has been removed.
Mark (still) in Oregon
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The Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 is not a USRA 2-8-8-2 - it is a N&W Y6b.
Atlas imported a USRA 2-8-8-2 in the 1990s.
Lifelike, then Walthers imported a modified USRA 2-8-8-2 (in reality a N&W Y-3) in the first decade of this century.
I own examples except for the Atlas 2-8-8-2.
Mark
You’re lucky. The Atlas 2-8-8-2 was a piece of ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttttt!
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You’re lucky. The Atlas 2-8-8-2 was a piece of ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttttt!
Yeah, that's why I don't have one :P
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Really? They used different drivers? That would be interesting to know. I will wait in earnest for your report.
Yes, the Rowa engines had much finer drivers and siderods. RR updated them with typical drivers of the era.
Here's a photo of the front engine, sitting on Code 40 rail.
Otto
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Sounds very much like what's known in the Marklin Z Scale world as "HOS": "Hardened Oil Syndrome". Seems the older releases came lubed with a grease that contained some sort of "wax", so over time the stuff would harden and it would become impossible for the gears to turn. I guess many a motor were burned up by an unknowing user attempting to get their immoveable loco running by turning up the juice...
I personally have seen this; I have (4) Marklin Z scale locos. All were used when I got 'em, and all 4 needed a complete tear-down, cleaning and re-lube before they would run. (Fortunately I knew about "HOS" prior to getting any of them.)
Now they can sit for many months without turning a wheel, yet will all run smoothly and quietly now that that stuff has been removed.
Mark (still) in Oregon
I have experienced the same thing in several N scale European locos (steam and diesel, but mostly on steam locos). Just last year I bought couple of older Fleischman train sets where the locos drivers were frozen solid due to dried up oil which became more like brown glue. I ahve also seen this phenomenon in some American prototype diesels, but the oil was not quite dried up like on the other models - just really viscous.
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I have three of those old gals. They all run but on DC. not going to change them over with sound. They're too noisy and don't pull much. i really would like to see someone put one out with todays standards and sound.
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That is what I proposed when I started this thread. I wanted to show that there is interest in purchasing newly designed Mallets with today's engineering and sound. Heck, we all know the issue's with the older models. That is why I mentioned BLI for example. My 4-8-2 Mountains run great and pull well. I had my Challenger pulling 20 cars up a 2% grade and it spun out. Right after that it shorted the layout. I coupled up my BLI
Mountain to the cars the Challenger had been pulling and from the start, it grabbed the track and pulled the cars up the 2% grade, no problem. Forget Athearn! If they can't build a Challenger that preforms then don't even try a Mallet. I don't know how the Athearn " HO" Challengers are preforming. I would hope better than in N Scale. I don't know of other manufactures that would be interested except those I mentioned at the start of this thread. Doug R
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I don't have a 2-8-8-2 here... Are the drivers cuttable for traction tires? (I meant the first run ones). If the outer metal rim part has enough thickness, they can be cut. The Kato Mikado has a problem with that, in that their rims are too thin and if you try to cut even .005" into them, you are playing with fire and might cut right through the rim. I tried it a few times and managed to get it, but it's hit-or-miss, and since replacement drivers for those are commonly available, it's not a big deal.
But for the 2-8-8-2, cutting traction tire grooves may be the only way to fix the pulling on those earlier ones. If anyone has calipers and a good eye, post a guess at the rim thickness in here. It would be good to know.
I know right after LL released it, Victor (Miranda) cut some drivers and added traction tires. I think he did enough for several locos. On mine, I added all the tungsten I could get in them and double headed will pull 50 MT refers up my 2% grade. I've got 2 undec's that have never been out of the box that needs WP decals.
You’re lucky. The Atlas 2-8-8-2 was a piece of ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttttt!
I have a couple of them too and one of them I reworked and it runs OK.
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Has there been any confirmation that the Walthers tooling for the 2-8-8-2 has been lost?
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Has there been any confirmation that the Walthers tooling for the 2-8-8-2 has been lost?
@AtlasPaul will have to speak to that. I did a search though and the 2-8-8-2 was not mentioned specifically, although this post kind of implied it:
Re: Atlas’s Walthers tooling Dec 18 edition. (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46019.msg598794#msg598794)
I am hoping that Atlas will produce the Walthers/Lifelike USRA 0-8-0 and 2-8-8-2 mallet. Both are awesome performers.
Not every former Walthers N scale piece was accounted for - we purchased everything that was accounted for. The items that were not would be offered to us in the event they are located.
The 0-8-0 was specifically mentioned:
The C424/425 did not belong to LL/Walthers so was not included in our purchase.
The 0-8-0 tooling was not located with the other tooling, so is not currently included with our purchase, however if/when it is located, provisions are in place for it to be transferred to Atlas.
Nothing about the 2-8-4 Berkshire though.
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The 0-8-0 was not located by Walthers when the tooling was transferred. In the event they locate it, it will be turned over to us.
The other steam tooling was received.
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Cool, so the 2-8-8-2 and Berkshire tooling are with Atlas. Great news. Hopefully we will see a run of them sometime in the future!
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Well Paul, and Atlas in general, you've got the tooling to two really excellent steam locos there, that just need some improvements to turn them into A+ engines. The Berk needs traction tires, axle-point tender pickup, and easier conversion to DCC. The 2-8-8-2 was probably even closer to perfect in its last run with the traction tires, although as I recall, the headlight was incandescent and very dim, but that may have only been in the first run.
Even though neither engine fits my personal needs, I'm excited about this because I am always happy to see really well-made commercial steam that "gets it". The Kato Mikado "got it". Kato saw the critical shortcomings of N Scale steam in the 1990s and addressed them. These two engines could do see Atlas do the same thing for our current time. Sure wish you had the 0-8-0.
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The 0-8-0 was not located by Walthers when the tooling was transferred. In the event they locate it, it will be turned over to us.
The other steam tooling was received.
Thank you Paul!
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Even the second run had an incandescent bulb, and they are NOT fun to change.
Thanks for the info Paul!
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Even the second run had an incandescent bulb, and they are NOT fun to change.
Thanks for the info Paul!
. . . but much easier than replacing a failed LED in Athearn Big Boy headlight. While the Mallet was a bit challenging, the Big Boy was a huge pain in the butt! Parts being glued together makes the job even harder. I just did that last week.
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Always a bit surprised no manufacturer has ever had another crack at the Y6b
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Well, there are many prototypes that could be produced from that LL watchers Mallet mechanism.
A UP 2-8-8-0 Bull Moose for example, and many others.
Otto K.
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Always a bit surprised no manufacturer has ever had another crack at the Y6b
With the success of the EM-1 I would think that Bachmann would take on a Y6b, and an A. That would give them N&W’s big 3. That would almost get me to switch roads! I don’t think I could an A.
Sorry for the thread drift!
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I think if anyone does the Y6b today it would be BLI ...
http://www.broadway-limited.com/paragon3nandwy6b2-8-8-2.aspx
Mark
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Exactly! When I started this thread my choice would be BLI. Off hand I mentioned nine roads plus undec's could produced and make quite a stir in the N Scale Steam Locomotive models arena. Come on BLI, take a close look at possibly producing 2-8-8-2's. Doug R :drool:
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Exactly! When I started this thread my choice would be BLI. Off hand I mentioned nine roads plus undec's could produced and make quite a stir in the N Scale Steam Locomotive models arena. Come on BLI, take a close look at possibly producing 2-8-8-2's. Doug R :drool:
Only if they make it with an ESU decoder. :trollface: :trollface: And chances of that are zero.
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Anyone looking for a Walthers/LL 2-8-8-2 with DCC and sound and traction tires?
I bought one to turn into a N&W loco, can even throw in decals and extra water tender. It has some extra weight added to it as well.
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YES!!
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Personal email sent
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If only there was SOME WAY to use one locomotives drive train and mount different road specific boilers on it...some day we will have printers that can do this (and flying cars...where are the flying cars I was promised as a kid?!!)
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If only there was SOME WAY to use one locomotives drive train and mount different road specific boilers on it...some day we will have printers that can do this (and flying cars...where are the flying cars I was promised as a kid?!!)
Well, there is - it's called "kitbashing". Clever modelers (even some on this forum) have been doing that for some time. :D
I understand what you are saying, but in many cases, there are other differences in the running gear than just a shell. So if you want a close-enough foobie then the method you described would work, but if you wand a more accurate model then the running gear would have to be loco-specific.
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for anyone interested
i have a Walthers/LL Heritage 2-8-8-2 DC new in box
and a Concor/Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 i picked up a couple of years ago
willing to part with them for the right price
PM me
sorry for hijack
back to thread
thanks
Gary
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I was checking Ebay today just for the heck of it looking for Life-Like USRA 2-8-8-2 Mallet's manufactured in 2008. There were none at all. Found 3, 2002 models from the earlier Life-Like production but I'll stay away from them. I don't have a machine shop and don't want to get myself into a rut. But I'll keep checking, who knows? Spookshow thought the 2008 model was a winner. Doug R(http://)
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I was checking Ebay today just for the heck of it looking for Life-Like USRA 2-8-8-2 Mallet's manufactured in 2008. There were none at all. Found 3, 2002 models from the earlier Life-Like production but I'll stay away from them. I don't have a machine shop and don't want to get myself into a rut. But I'll keep checking, who knows? Spookshow thought the 2008 model was a winner. Doug R(http://)
Yes, get the later (Walthers) run. Not only in the original run there were no traction tires, but the tender and loco were electrically separate units. So only the loco's drivers were picking up power for the loco and while the tender did have electric pickup, it was only for the backup light (since the tender was not connected electrically to the loco).
If you do find the Walters release with the factory-installed QSI decoder, it is an excellent decoder.