TheRailwire
General Discussion => Product Discussion => Topic started by: Tangentsm on August 09, 2018, 11:25:47 PM
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Thank you for the great comments and excitement about Tangent's first N scale freight car release! We are really happy to bring our love of model train freight cars to N scale.
Live from the National Train Show in Kansas City, MO: Tangent Scale Models is pleased to announce the N scale Bethlehem Steel 3600 Cubic Foot Quad Hopper. These distinctive 100-ton quad hoppers match the Union Pacific specification and were built by Bethlehem Steel in the 1970s. Our UP replicas represent more than 6,900 “quad” hoppers, UP’s largest fleet of coal hoppers in company history.
The Tangent Scale Models prototype replica of the Union Pacific Bethlehem design quad hopper has never been produced in N scale, making it a distinctive addition to any freight car fleet. Our stunning N Scale Quad Hopper model is loaded with detail. We set out to produce an N Scale car that is worthy of the Tangent brand, bringing as much of our industry-leading HO Scale execution and detail as possible packed in an N Scale box.
However, we are not terribly new to N scale. In the past, Tangent's research packages and artwork have contributed to some of your favorite BLMA freight cars in N scale: the ACF Welded Gondola, GATC Dry-Flo Covered Hopper, 60' GSC Flatcar, and PS 4000 Covered Hopper.
We maintain strong emphasis on accurate reproduction of the prototype, as well as disciplined execution of each model. Finally, we design our products to be utilized in operating environments (please see the list below). Notable callouts for our new UP Bethlehem Steel 3600 Cubic Foot Quad Hopper include:
- Highly accurate "true to life" colors
- Exact fonts and lettering placement. Read the accurate 1” COTS boxes!
- Painted wire coupler lift bars for strength and durability
- Real rubber flexible air hoses
- Thin-profile brake piping
- See-through etched metal brake platform
- L-shaped end-sheet supports
- Interior bracing detail
- Body-mounted Draft Gear with MT-compatible couplers
- Ready-to-operate model with hidden weights
- 100-ton trucks and 36” CNC free-rolling precision metal wheels with front and back profile
- Our N Scale Bethlehem Steel Quad Hopper does not compromise to operate on toy train curves – we suggest a minimum radius of 18.75” or greater.
- A "Tangent-accurate" non-symmetrical, properly-sloped, and removable coal load
- Dimensional accuracy - scaled from prototype plans
- Car number selection process - we select car numbers from our personal photo collection, online and published sources, focusing on late era numbers to represent more than 40 years in continuous operation
- Recommended age 14 years and older
- Our models are shipped in plastic jewel boxes!
Our first production is available in the following 12 Union Pacific scheme variations, covering all eras of original paint and repaint possibilities. We are also offering an assembled, painted and unlettered model if you want to “finish your own masterpiece.” A wide selection of paint schemes and roadnumbers are available to allow customization of trains appropriate for your modeling era.
Check them out now at www.tangentscalemodels.com : You will also find a handy Tangent Scale Models visual guide available online, laying out all our UP schemes and options.
And as usual, all our offerings below feature photos on our website showing the actual model and the prototype cars!
NEW: Union Pacific "Original 1977 H-100-16" in the classic, as-delivered "Freight Car Red” paint with large Union Pacific spelled out in white. Please note these red cars include painted trucks to match the carbody color, just like UP paint practices! Available in 12 all new numbers for 2018!
NEW: Union Pacific "Original 1978 H-100-17" in the as-delivered "All-Black” paint with yellow ends designating the rotary coupler ends. This scheme includes the large Union Pacific spelled out in white on the carside. Individual car numbers are printed on the trucks, just like the prototypes. Because these cars initially operated in unit train services, they are available in 12 all new numbers for 2018!
NEW: UP "Original 1979 H-100-18" Double Rotary in the as-delivered 1979 Black with Yellow Double Rotary Ends. There were exactly 2 prototype cars in this H-100-18 class, so the same 2 numbers are back for 2018 since many people missed these during our initial offering.
NEW: UP "1986 H-100-16 Red Repaint" replicates an example of a 1986+ era UP simplified repaint with the left-justified style reporting marks. Available in 1 number.
NEW: UP "1989 H-100-16 Red Repaint" is an example of a 1989+ era UP simplified repaint. Check out the old ACI label bars showing through the paint, just like the prototype. Available in 1 number.
NEW: UP "1982 H-100-19 Red Repaint" recreates an example of a 1982+ era UP repaint from the H-100-19 class. Available in 1 number.
NEW: UP "1997 H-100-19 Black Repaint" V3" is a nod to the ultra-simple 1997+ no-shield repaints in black and yellow. Available in 2 numbers.
NEW: UP "1997 H-100-19 Black Repaint" V4" is an example of a simplified 1997+ repaint with a shield in black and yellow. Available in 1 number.
NEW: UP "H-100-16 Red Repaint Conspicuity 2005+" replicates a 2005+ era car in the red repaint scheme featuring vertical conspicuity stripes. Available in 1 number.
NEW: UP "H-100-18 Black Repaint Conspicuity 2005+" is a 2005+ era car in the 1980s black repaint scheme featuring vertical conspicuity stripes. Available in 1 number.
NEW: UP "H-100-18 Black Repaint Conspicuity 2005+" Version 2 is another 2005+ era car in the 1980s black repaint scheme, this time featuring horizontal conspicuity stripes. Available in 1 number.
NEW: UP "H-100-19 Black Repaint Conspicuity 2005+" replicates a very interesting 2005+ era car in the 1990s black and yellow repaint scheme. Check out the black end: The prototype car end reporting marks were mis-applied, and we duplicated that same “typo” detail on our model. Of course, the prototype photo is available on our website!. Available in 1 number.
NEW: Undecorated RTR Black which we are pleased to offer for those who still enjoy painting and lettering their own masterpieces. We are modelers, and we get it! This car is assembled, painted black, and ready for decals.
(https://www.tangentscalemodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/N-quads-poster-1200.x62634.jpg)
The Tangent Scale Models Bethlehem Steel 3600cu.ft. Quad Hoppers are shipping on September 17. See www.tangentscalemodels.com for photos and more.
Do not miss out on the Tangent Scale Models Bethlehem Steel Design Quad Hoppers, the workhorses of the Union Pacific Coal Hopper fleet. Pricing for these RTR models is $32.95.
Thank you for continuing to support Tangent Scale Models, a family-owned and operated company!
David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models
“Unparalleled scale replicas for discriminating railroad modelers”
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Treasurer approved. Helps to go out for breakfast sometimes. There will be acquisition of a 12-number set in "original", and any subsequent new number groups you release in the earliest scheme. They will be a real scene-maker on my layout.
Thanks, David!
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Nice, I will be getting the 6 after 1997 schemes cars for sure.
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Nice - but way out of my budget $$$
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I hope the 6k gallon ACF tankcars are on the list of N scale projects.
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Beautiful models and great addition to N Scale. Looks like I'm going to be in for a mess of undec ones for a local short line patch job.
Anyone else notice the min curves is 18.75”? If that is a hard requirement, that’s going to be a problem for a lot of folks (including me) There is a lot of layouts with curves just under 18 (say 14”-18’) for hidden track or other.
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Beautiful models and great addition to N Scale. Looks like I'm going to be in for a mess of undec ones for a local short line patch job.
Anyone else notice the min curves is 18.75”? If that is a hard requirement, that’s going to be a problem for a lot of folks (including me) There is a lot of layouts with curves just under 18 (say 14”-18’) for hidden track or other.
Maybe a portion of the text was copied from their HO announcement. There are two three references to new numbers for 2018. :?
Edit: OK, I re-read the post and the 18.75" suggested minimum radius specifically states it is for the N scale model. I wonder what the minimum radius is for the HO scale model?
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Check them out now at www.tangentscalemodels.com :
Can't "check them out" when all that appears is this message:
This site can’t provide a secure connection
www.tangentscalemodels.com uses an unsupported protocol.
ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH
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Works fine for me in Chrome, Firefox and Safari on my Mac.
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The link works fine for me.
Great looking cars, I hope they sell well so Tangent will bring more great looking cars to the N Scale market.
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Cool. 8)
I wonder how similar these cars are to the 4 3,625 cu ft hoppers that UP (these became N&W 130996-130999) exchanged with N&W in 1980 (for 4 N&W H12 hoppers, which became UP 39896-39899).
The exchange only lasted until 1982.
Mark
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So the link works fine for me, but there are no images on the N Scale page to click and buy, even though the upper right hand corner says to click here to buy. I'm guessing my Ludite side is coming out, but what am I missing?
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... what am I missing?
Nothing. The "buy" links aren't there yet, and (my guess is) won't be there until the September 17 ship date. My understanding through an HO'er friend that Tangent's business model is no pre-ordering, just first-come-first-serve when product is in-hand and available.
FWIW, they also announced a re-release of the HO version of the quad, and same deal there - no "buy now" buttons yet.
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I can work around the price since these look great. But the minimum radius requirement is something that I can't work around. Down sizing to an apartment(and one without stairs) leaves me with tighter curves than the advertised minimum radius. I'll have to wait until someone has these in hand and does some reviews to see if I can add these to my modern era WE. So for now I'll have to take a wait and see. But I think this is still a great thing for N scale whether or not these work for me.
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Nothing. The "buy" links aren't there yet, and (my guess is) won't be there until the September 17 ship date. My understanding through an HO'er friend that Tangent's business model is no pre-ordering, just first-come-first-serve when product is in-hand and available.
FWIW, they also announced a re-release of the HO version of the quad, and same deal there - no "buy now" buttons yet.
The HO "undecs" - the black painted ones - have a Sept. 17 arrival date but also have an order button.
Guess I need to set myself a reminder
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I hope the 6k gallon ACF tankcars are on the list of N scale projects.
+1
What he said....
And Bethlehem riveted gons.
And please, no more announcements until car repairs paid for.
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... the minimum radius requirement is something that I can't work around. ...
I have to wonder if the minimum radius specs are overblown in a somewhat broad-brush assumption that somebody running the least-common-denominator 9-3/4" curves with a mix of truck-mount and the new hopper's body-mount couplers would be in for an unpleasant surprise. Might be like the issue encountered with the True Scale Couplers, where mixing long and short cars doesn't work on <18" or so. The reality will be tested once I have them in-hand as my test loop has 15" curves.
The HO "undecs" - the black painted ones - have a Sept. 17 arrival date but also have an order button.
Hmm. When I was poking around the site at the onset of the "rumor", it seemed like the HO "blank slate" cars were remnants of prior runs. Maybe, maybe not. But it makes a good story anyway.
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... And please, no more announcements until car repairs paid for.
You're not alone. Our annual property taxes are due the day after the hoppers are released. PB&J on the menu for a while.
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Works fine for me in Chrome, Firefox and Safari on my Mac.
Does not work in Chrome on a PC for me.
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...– we suggest a minimum radius of 18.75” or greater.
Personally, I'm fine with the limitation, but the pursuit of scale fidelity in this case is going to narrow the potential market substantially. It just dawned on me that this is bigger than they may think. I suspect that 99+% of Unitrack users are locked-out, and the T-Trak community is totally persona non grata.
HO version is 28", so why this didn't translate to 14" or 15" might have something to do with the low-bolster trucks and the extra attention paid to ride height.
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I hope the 6k gallon ACF tankcars are on the list of N scale projects.
All their 1917 design tank cars would be welcome as well.
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All their 1917 design tank cars would be welcome as well.
Not if they are also going to require an 18.75 min. radius!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You're not alone. Our annual property taxes are due the day after the hoppers are released. PB&J on the menu for a while.
Ramen is cheaper! :)
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- Our N Scale Bethlehem Steel Quad Hopper does not compromise to operate on toy train curves – we suggest a minimum radius of 18.75” or greater.
:lol: Hahahaha. ...Oh, wait, you're serious? :facepalm:
Makes popcorn, because this is going to be interesting to watch unfold
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The radius is a mistake if it's really a requirement and not a suggestion. Even our club layout has a couple 16" radii snuck into some staging yard areas. Hopefully these will operate without issues down to at least 15".
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Even though these are out of my era, I'm interested in Tangent's entry into N ..and its an impressive model. The minimum radius floored me ...ok...I can run 85' body-mounted coupler passenger cars that look just fine on the 17-18" curves that I have but I can't run this hopper? If this is true, then lets hope its TSC-compatible because you're looking at the "Proto-160" crowd to run these. I guess you probably can do a hack/whack job on the body to make it work on smaller radii, but it would be shame to do that a model like that.
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Unless there is clarification on the suggested radius limit by @Tangentsm I can’t risk placing a $300 only to find out they derail on the sections of 15” turns I have in staging. I’m really not into modifying a $32 car just to run on curves if that’s what it takes. Hopefully Tangent Models can chime in.
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If anyone reading this is at the show tomorrow, perhaps ask Tangent if they could loan a couple cars to the T Trak setup to see how they run?
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My mainline minimum is 17 inches, in one place, so I couldn't run them either. 18.75 inches is 250 scale feet. A prototype GP38 can handle 140 feet, by itself, according to the EMD manual. Coupled to a 50 ft car it only needs 302 feet. A prototype hopper should be able to go around any curve a GP38 can take. As others have said, this is really going to limit sales, of this hopper to those who read the fine print, and of the next model to those who find they can't run this one.
I wonder if that radius was copied from the HO version, and is a mistake?
That said, I can't use them anyway, as they're a few years too modern for me.
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Almost got excited about these, but that minimum radius... ouch! That'll knock me out of the market!
Cheers,
Kev
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Not if they are also going to require an 18.75 min. radius!!!!!!!!!!!!
The tankcars have a short wheelbase. They will negotiate at least 12”.
Bring ‘em! Soon! :D
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These models should be able to navigate 11” curves. The ESM mill gondola is a longer car with scale height and body-mounted couplers, and it can run on as little as 10.5” radius. It doesn’t like it and it looks funny doing it, but it will stay on the track. The same should apply to this new coal hopper.
But yes, the days of everything being able to run on 9-3/4” radius are long over.
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These models should be able to navigate 11” curves. The ESM mill gondola is a longer car with scale height and body-mounted couplers, and it can run on as little as 10.5” radius. It doesn’t like it and it looks funny doing it, but it will stay on the track. The same should apply to this new coal hopper.
That logic may not apply as the clearance issue with hoppers are usually the bays.
Jason
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That minimum radius recommendation just doesn't seem realistic. It would mean that the trucks have almost no swing (because I cannot imagine that the body mounted couplers could be the reason).
If that recommendation is accurate then I think they are seriously limiting their products's marketability.
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It might be the stirrups. They realistically have the trucks close to the end of the car:
https://www.tangentscalemodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/n-39975-detailr-crop.x62634.jpg
EDIT: well maybe not:
https://www.tangentscalemodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/n-underside-red-crop.x62634.jpg
Mark
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I hope the 6k gallon ACF tankcars are on the list of N scale projects.
YES!
Would be nice to have something for us steam era guys for a change...
Otto K.
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I wonder if that radius was copied from the HO version, and is a mistake?
That said, I can't use them anyway, as they're a few years too modern for me.
Even if one had 19" curves, most Yard turnout curves are much sharper than that; I bet it's a mistake.
Otto K.
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It might be the stirrups. They realistically have the trucks close to the end of the car:
https://www.tangentscalemodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/n-39975-detailr-crop.x62634.jpg
EDIT: well maybe not:
(https://www.tangentscalemodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/n-underside-red-crop.x62634.jpg)
Mark
That doesn't look much different than any other N scale hopper with body mounted couplers. It seems that only the coupler box would be limiting the swing (and as I see it, it appears that there still is enough swing for tighter radius track.
So the specified minimum radius is likely a mistake, or Tangent did this to bring up some lively conversation about their product (as witnessed here). :D
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I agree about the coupler box.
https://www.tangentscalemodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/n-40181highend-crop.x62634.jpg
With that said, it doesn't look worse than some Exactrail cars I have that have had no issues.
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So the specified minimum radius is likely a mistake, or Tangent did this to bring up some lively conversation about their product (as witnessed here). :D
Great marketing..
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I think it's definitely the coupler box in conjunction with the hose pipe.
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So the specified minimum radius is likely a mistake, or Tangent did this to bring up some lively conversation about their product (as witnessed here). :D
Clever marketing or simply trolling ;) If it was simply a mistake I would assume that @Tangentsm would have come in by now and corrected it. Nevertheless, I am happy the 100 ton trucks are available again and one can only hope for less than $7.95 a pair.
Jane
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These models should be able to navigate 11” curves. The ESM mill gondola is a longer car with scale height and body-mounted couplers, and it can run on as little as 10.5” radius. It doesn’t like it and it looks funny doing it, but it will stay on the track. The same should apply to this new coal hopper.
But yes, the days of everything being able to run on 9-3/4” radius are long over.
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These models should be able to navigate 11” curves. The ESM mill gondola is a longer car with scale height and body-mounted couplers, and it can run on as little as 10.5” radius. It doesn’t like it and it looks funny doing it, but it will stay on the track. The same should apply to this new coal hopper.
But yes, the days of everything being able to run on 9-3/4” radius are long over.
I don't think that anybody is clamoring for the model to operate on 2.75" radius curves, the suggested "minimum radius of 18.75” or greater" is a far cry from 10.5" (or 11") radius. And like you said, the hopper is not a very long cars. As others have mentioned, they run 80+ foot passenger cars with body-mounted couplers on curves tighter that 18.75 inches.
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Clever marketing or simply trolling ;) If it was simply a mistake I would assume that @Tangentsm would have come in by now and corrected it.
Jane
The man's in the middle of a train show - we're lucky we've got photos on the website and now even the ability to order them. Give the guy a break - I'm sure Dave will correct the record as soon as he can. Probably doesn't even know there another railwire dust storm brewing here....
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Well, I got to see the new hopper in person today, and got to talk with the Tangent guys at length. Nice guys, a truly beautiful model. The trucks and wheels are also state of the art. They obviously want to enter the N scale market with a cutting edge product, and I can't but wish them lots of success (so that we can get more cars from them). They do make some great stuff in HO (like tank cars) :D
Having said that, the minimum radius is 18" plus, that's not a typo. I am told they didn't want to compromise by raising the body or doing talgoes, and this was a conscious decision. They also want to be transparent about it, hence the note In the announcement. Looking at it, the truck swivel is limited by the width of the MT clone coupler box, and the air hose on its side. In my personal opinion, this will limit their sales, but as I said before , this was a conscious business decision, and I'm not going to second guess that, it's not my money, and I'm thrilled to see them enter the N scale market.
Otto K.
PS: I'm told the wheelsets (and they are beautiful) will be available separately in the not too distant future. Of course, these are 36" wheels, per this prototype.
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I just don't see what makes it so different from many BLMA, Exactrail or Trainworx offerings. Wheel flanges rubbing the bottom of the outside hopper bays?
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The man's in the middle of a train show - we're lucky we've got photos on the website and now even the ability to order them. Give the guy a break - I'm sure Dave will correct the record as soon as he can. Probably doesn't even know there another railwire dust storm brewing here...
Oh I am so sorry, did I say something wrong ? Yeah we are very lucky we got photos, after all he's trying to sell something to us. Go the All Blacks ! ;) But all good now, it wasn't a typo and the minimum radius is 18" plus. Fine with me, I like these hoppers and wish them luck in N scale, bring em on.
Jane
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It sounds like Otto thinks the air hose is limiting the truck swing. If so, I imagine it is easy to remove it, if your curves demand it.
I'm planning on swapping Bowser couplers in, so I don't think that aspect will affect me. But if the hopper bays are the limiting factor, that's a different kettle of fish. I hope Tangent will clarify this in their advertising so they don't needlessly curtail sales.
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I think it's definitely the coupler box in conjunction with the hose pipe.
Bryan here hits it.
Dan and I took the car and went over to the TTrak layouts to test it on the curves. The cars can negotiate the curves, however there is rubbing.
When you remove the rubber air hose and line, the car has minor rubbing on the 310mm outer track. However it is the back of the wheel rubbing the draft gear key. If you take an exacto and trim the key down or remove it, it will handle much tighter curves that the 18.75" they recommend. It will probably do less than that, however they were using Atlas code 55 sectional to see what it can without any rubbing or interference, and that was the "tightest" it will do.
I honestly didn't even see the coupler box details until Dan pointed it out to me, but it is all true to scale.
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While I have no want/interest in the quads, as BN had triples, but I hope this is a successful product and they bring out the PS 4750s to N. While the IM is nice, IM has done 1 body style while there are many that are available they can do.
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While I have no want/interest in the quads, as BN had triples, but I hope this is a successful product and they bring out the PS 4750s to N. While the IM is nice, IM has done 1 body style while there are many that are available they can do.
IMRC 4750 doesnt have a surface to mount a coupler box
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So they've produced a model that probably has a bigger minimum radius, in scale, than the prototype. Makes me wonder if that's happened before.
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IMRC 4750 doesnt have a surface to mount a coupler box
There is also that
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Ike, thank you for testing out the cars on the T Trak layout. So in short, if you remove the rubber air hose and sand/file down the sides of the coupler box then the backs of the wheels won't rub on the outside radius curve?
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Jagged Ben: Probably not, but it's not surprising, if they make everything to scale, EXCEPT the over-width draft gear box. Good thing I don't need these.
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Ike, thank you for testing out the cars on the T Trak layout. So in short, if you remove the rubber air hose and sand/file down the sides of the coupler box then the backs of the wheels won't rub on the outside radius curve?
Pretty much, the detail, which I can't get photos of as all I got is my phone, is the key that would hold the proto coupler shank into the coupler pocket. You can probably just trim it down with an exacto knife. The wheels were barely rubbing, or that is how it felt going around the outside radius curves.
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I don’t mind paying a premium for high scale fidelity, but in this case it comes with required modifications out of the box to run on the layout. I’ll pass, but wish them luck in the market. Good to see another player.
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Ike, when you refer to the key that holds the proto coupler shank in the pocket, are you saying that it is an extra part designed to allow use of the MT true scale couplers?
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Jagged Ben: Probably not, but it's not surprising, if they make everything to scale, EXCEPT the over-width draft gear box. Good thing I don't need these.
Not sure why you're disputing me. Check out https://www.gbrx.com/manufacturing/north-america-rail/automotive/. Many similar cars have smaller curve negotiability radii. Not sure what car is the best comparison but the quad hopper is a shorter car with the trucks near the ends so it should be on the lower end of the range.
Note the wheel treads are also over width on the model and this is also part of the problem.
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Jagged Ben: Probably not, but it's not surprising, if they make everything to scale, EXCEPT the over-width draft gear box. Good thing I don't need these.
Seems that if they are truly so committed about detailing and proto fidelity they should have used the MT Z body mount coupler instead of the 'giant' 'slinky' MT N coupler (or clone).
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Seems that if they are truly so committed about detailing and proto fidelity they should have used the MT Z body mount coupler instead of the 'giant' 'slinky' MT N coupler (or clone).
While using MTL Z scale coupler would have made a visual improvement over N scale coupler, and the draft gear box would have been smaller, it would still have been "slinky". And as far as truly giant couplers go, those are the McHenry and Bachmann couplers (and let's not forget the Scale Trains couplers which look like McHenry clones).
While I suspect you were only half serious in your post, I felt like the record should be set straight.
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Ike, when you refer to the key that holds the proto coupler shank in the pocket, are you saying that it is an extra part designed to allow use of the MT true scale couplers?
No this is a proto feature that on the real one keeps the coupler shank from coming out of the pocket
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Seems that if they are truly so committed about detailing and proto fidelity they should have used the MT Z body mount coupler instead of the 'giant' 'slinky' MT N coupler (or clone).
Except the 1015 and 1015 clone aren't prone to the slinky feature...
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Except the 1015 and 1015 clone aren't prone to the slinky feature...
Sure they are - they just slink in the opposite direction. :D Seriously, they do slink (and I'm not even a slink-hater). Just ask any slink-hater.
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Sure they are - they just slink in the opposite direction. :D Seriously, they do slink (and I'm not even a slink-hater). Just ask any slink-hater.
So only when pushing
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Thank you David @Tangentsm!
I found and ordered 19 hoppers with paint schemes and road numbers that appear suitable for use in my mid 2000s era sugar beet trains.
I have not followed what road numbers you have already offered on these cars in HO, but if you need a prototype photo of UP 45896 (a double rotary H-100-20), that car is visible in these Google Street Views:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0380241,-112.4345331,3a,15y,138.37h,90.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6KeYEmhUd7myw84lgyk9sg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0380241,-112.4345331,3a,15y,138.37h,90.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6KeYEmhUd7myw84lgyk9sg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0377404,-112.4346033,3a,15y,78.87h,89.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgvOb6vf-FovAkKK-ZOq-hw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0377404,-112.4346033,3a,15y,78.87h,89.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgvOb6vf-FovAkKK-ZOq-hw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
Again, thank you. I have been wanting models of these hoppers for more than 30 years. :D
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So, just curious, do any of our readers here have a layout with curves of 18.75R and above only?
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So, just curious, do any of our readers here have a layout with curves of 18.75R and above only?
Yes. Mainline on my layout is designed to 24" minimums, with a couple of temporary bits at 22". Well, almost. I spec'ed 18.00" as minimum radius on branchlines and industrial. I suspect as suggested previously they didn't test on anything other than Atlas C55 sectional, where it may have rubbed on the 17.5" and not on 18.75", so I'm crossing fingers that I am "safe".
I have one curved turnout in the plan, where the inner radius is 15". It's for a short industrial spur unlikely to see the hoppers.
EDIT: In thinking more about it, what about turnouts? It's been observed that Atlas C55 turnouts have sharper-than-expected radii for their "number" within the switch. I'm all but certain that #5s will be no-go, and #10s should be safe, but what about #7s?. And the wyes? Testing awaits.
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My mainline curves are at least 20 inch radius. Since the sugar beet loading area and the sugar factory are both in my staging area, the stated suggested minimum radius will not be a problem for me. However, I am still trying to figure out a good way to come up with 50 loads of realistic looking N scale sugar beets. ;)
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As I stated earlier, our club layout has a couple 16" curves snuck into staging areas. Those could be avoided if one is enough on top of it. According to some literature, the mainline minimum radius on our layout is supposed to be 21", but there are a few places where some 'mistakes' were made and it's closer to 18". Unfortunately, one of those mistakes is single track at the top of the highest hill in the loop. If I buy this Tangent car and it derails at that spot as it reaches the summit, then the rest of the train behind it is likely taking a long, fast trip downhill for about 40 real feet of track, and hopefully there's not another train following behind! :facepalm:
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I commented much earlier this thread regarding the price of these model saying they are out of my budget, but am continuing to follow the discussion.
Really, I cannot but wonder why a manufacturer would make a product that would not run on most modelers pike or requires removing some of the details that that make it cost so much in order to do so.
When a freight car me costs almost as much a locomotive, I find myself scratching my head and asking is that level of detail really worth it ? Particularly when it is a car that one needs many of in order to make a reasonable looking train.
YMMV
eja
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Has anyone checked the wheel gauge? Most models are way too narrow. Even a slight adjustment wider could make a big difference.
Jason
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Jagged Ben: Actually, I wasn't disputing you at all. You commented on the model minimum radius being larger than the prototype, and asked if that had ever happened before. I said it probably hadn't, and expressed the opinion that that an exact scale model with one extra-wide part was likely to have such problems. No dispute at all, and I agree that it's bad design on their part.
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Has anyone checked the wheel gauge? Most models are way too narrow. Even a slight adjustment wider could make a big difference.
Hell, yes! F'rinstance, Kato loco wheelsets are consistently 0.015" narrow. Not only is that a very good point, but it's also been commented that the Tangent wheelsets have wide treads. While that won't make a lot if any difference in the back-to-back, it might.
OTOH, given the extreme attention to detail, I suspect much attention has been paid to the NMRA gauge, too. I would be slightly surprised if it was not centered in the template notches. But even then, there's a little bit of slop there, and gauge could be increased by ~0.010" and still meet spec.
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So, just curious, do any of our readers here have a layout with curves of 18.75R and above only?
My current tightest corner is 22”. The next version of the layout will be 36”.
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So, just curious, do any of our readers here have a layout with curves of 18.75R and above only?
Oakville's minimum is 24" - I think I fudged that just a bit in one place and it's more like 22". And if there's gonna be a problem, that particular spot is where it's gonna be. And yes, it happens.
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Since ICG had a series of similar cars, and I could use them for pet coke work, I am considering a pair. I am also building a switching layout, so unless there's a hard stop that prevents them from going below 18.75" I may well get a pair (I am planning 14" minimum radius).
@Tangentsm - how did you all arrive at that minimum radius recommendation?
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Hello Everyone. First off, I wanted to say thanks for all of the great comments on our new Bethlehem Quad Hopper. The last few days at the National Train Show have been incredibly busy. We really enjoy getting to talk to everyone on the show floor, including meeting many of you from this forum.
Our minimum radius is not a typo. We calculated the 18.75" by running the car on curves until we did not "feel" any rubbing of the wheels against the air hose and draft gear key details -- some of the same details that make the car a Tangent quality product that sits at the right height (yet work with the larger than scale coupler box required for MT-compatible couplers).
Can you run the car on smaller radius curves? Yes, with adjustment of the model.
Examples:
1. If you remove the 2 rubber air hoses from the model (Needle nose pliers pull them right off from their 2-pin mounts), then the car will FREELY roll on a 15" radius curve.
2. If you further "modify" the car by taking a #11 X-acto blade and slicing off the "nub" face of the draft key detail molded onto the side of the draft gear box (about 20 seconds of work), then the car will FREELY roll on a 12.5" radius curve.
Further reduction in minimum radius is possible, but results in increasing degrees of "rubbing" and that is up to the pain threshold of the modeler.
We want our official documentation to reflect the out-of-the-box radius, hence the 18.75" on the website and announcement text.
A few other comments:
1. The wheels do not rub against the bays.
2. The wheels are .062" in width (just a hair narrower than what we see on an Atlas Trinity 5660 for example).
We appreciate the dialogue about our first N scale product. Our Bethlehem Quad Hoppers will ship beginning September 17. We look forward to your consideration and prospective business with Tangent Scale Models!
Best wishes,
David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models
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Thank you for the clarification David, good to know just the airhose need removing... or perhaps modifying? Either way, I'm happy to lose the hose so I can have a bunch of these. (I doubt the hose alone adds a great deal to the cost.
Now I just have to figure out the most cost effective way to purchase from the UK!
Cheers,
Kev
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David, thank you for the quick response! It sounds like the work to get these to run on tighter curves is fairly straightforward. These cars are common in central Texas headed to cement and lime factories.
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However, I am still trying to figure out a good way to come up with 50 loads of realistic looking N scale sugar beets. ;)
Sesame seeds ? ;)
Jane
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Well, so far 4 of our members here have layouts with big enough curves, I hope they buy a bunch!
The ad says car does not compromise proto fidelity for sharper curves, but obviously there were compromises when it comes to couplers and wheels. Our small scale does require some compromises . I doubt many N scalers would hold it against you if there were some compromises when it comes to min radius.
I would hate to see that min radius cause poor sales, as I've been following Tangents HO releases, and I would LOVE to see them stay in N scale for a while!.
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Sesame seeds ? ;)
Jane
I thought poppy seeds (size-wise), but the color is too dark. How about mustard seeds? The shape is similar to sugar beets (but still a bit too large) and the color is probably good too.
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Well, so far 4 of our members here have layouts with big enough curves, I hope they buy a bunch!
Only 4 of responded to this thread. There are plenty more. In addition to those of us with wider radius layouts, there are still a large number of N scalers whose only layout is NTrak, their minimum mainline radius is still 22.5”.
If someone is okay with the look of a 12” corner, they will probably be okay removing the airline from the car.
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Only 4 of responded to this thread. There are plenty more. In addition to those of us with wider radius layouts, there are still a large number of N scalers whose only layout is NTrak, their minimum mainline radius is still 22.5”.
If someone is okay with the look of a 12” corner, they will probably be okay removing the airline from the car.
That's why I wrote the "so far" part :facepalm:
Also, railroads have curves, not corners ;) ( stated to me by a very serious track foreman)
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Also, railroads have curves, not corners ;) ( stated to me by a very serious track foreman)
And he’s very right. They also measure curvature in degrees, not the sad radius inches we use to measure our curves.
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...
The ad says car does not compromise proto fidelity for sharper curves, but obviously there were compromises when it comes to couplers and wheels. Our small scale does require some compromises . I doubt many N scalers would hold it against you if there were some compromises when it comes to min radius.
...
No kidding. From all appearances, proto fidelity was compromised to achieve industry-standard N scale coupling, as well as tracking (wheel tread). Compromising a little more on the coupler box shape in order to get back to a prototypical radius would not have been uncalled for.
Hopefully a little bit of rubbing is just not a big deal at 16". As long as it doesn't actually derail, I'll take occasional rubbing over modifying the car. I don't model fossil fuels but I kinda want to pick up one or two of these for a stand alone aggregate load or something, just to support the cause.
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That's why I wrote the "so far" part :facepalm:
Also, railroads have curves, not corners ;) ( stated to me by a very serious track foreman)
You've (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4587547,-80.0495218,683m/data=!3m1!1e3) obviously (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4497222,-79.9989487,286m/data=!3m1!1e3) never (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4456055,-79.9925919,286m/data=!3m1!1e3) been (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4591707,-79.9548571,529m/data=!3m1!1e3) to (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3932825,-79.8403498,795m/data=!3m1!1e3) Pittsburgh (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4026615,-79.8265973,438m/data=!3m1!1e3) :P
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You've (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4587547,-80.0495218,683m/data=!3m1!1e3) obviously (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4497222,-79.9989487,286m/data=!3m1!1e3) never (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4456055,-79.9925919,286m/data=!3m1!1e3) been (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4591707,-79.9548571,529m/data=!3m1!1e3) to (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3932825,-79.8403498,795m/data=!3m1!1e3) Pittsburgh (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4026615,-79.8265973,438m/data=!3m1!1e3) :P
OK, I'll let you tell that to that track foreman, but , I gotta warn ya, you better be tough if you want to convince him!
For the record, I chose not to dispute the fact, and I feel it was the wise move.
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@Tangentsm Very much appreciate the follow up direct from the manufacturer. Seems pretty simple to get them down to 15” minimum radius (if needed, since it’s only a few short spots on my layout.)
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Sesame seeds ? ;)
I thought poppy seeds (size-wise), but the color is too dark. How about mustard seeds? The shape is similar to sugar beets (but still a bit too large) and the color is probably good too.
Jane and Peter,
Thanks for the suggestions, but I have explored a number of different seeds, and nothing really comes all that close. Sugar beets are mostly an irregular cone shaped, and at this point I am thinking I will probably have to make a mold and cast them in resin. At least I am not planning on modeling the piles at the dump or the factory.
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And he’s very right. They also measure curvature in degrees, not the sad radius inches we use to measure our curves.
Curvature is indeed typical for U.S. Railroads, but most countries use the radius as a measurement for the curve, not curvature. Curvature is a left over of setting out an alignment manually. :D
Marc
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Examples:
1. If you remove the 2 rubber air hoses from the model (Needle nose pliers pull them right off from their 2-pin mounts), then the car will FREELY roll on a 15" radius curve.
Great. My mainline has 18" curves, but my cement plant, where the hoppers will be spotted, has a 16" curve. Thank you for the very specific examples.
For beets, I think the closest match is celery seed:
(https://img.aws.livestrongcdn.com/ls-article-image-673/ds-photo/getty/article/181/237/116652465.jpg)
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"Also, railroads have curves, not corners" Tell that to the Yakima Valley Transportation folks, if you can find any still around. I once (late 60s) watched them drag an 89 ft TTX flatcar around a city street intersection. That "curve" was a CORNER! They had to detach the brake rods from the trucks, then pull the car around the curve with a chain, but it went around. I'm pretty sure that would have been less than 18 inches in N scale...
"They also measure curvature in degrees" Very true, for the North American railroads, but EMD gave the minimum radius in feet for their GP38 in the owners manual.
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For beets, I think the closest match is celery seed:
(https://img.aws.livestrongcdn.com/ls-article-image-673/ds-photo/getty/article/181/237/116652465.jpg)
Gary,
I agree the celery seeds come the closest to any "natural" product for N scale sugar beets, but they tend to have a shriveled look. Sugar beets need to be plump. :D
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Gary,
I agree the celery seeds come the closest to any "natural" product for N scale sugar beets, but they tend to have a shriveled look. Sugar beets need to be plump. :D
How about Chia seeds?
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Thank you for the clarification David, good to know just the airhose need removing... or perhaps modifying? Either way, I'm happy to lose the hose so I can have a bunch of these. (I doubt the hose alone adds a great deal to the cost.
Now I just have to figure out the most cost effective way to purchase from the UK!
Cheers,
Kev
Kev,
We sell directly to consumers right from our website 24-7. Also, two hobby shops carry Tangent Scale Models in the UK - Model Junction and Mech Models.
Thank you in advance!
David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models
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How about Chia seeds?
I think Chia seed would be a little too plump. This web site has a good photo of what sugar beets look like right out of the ground. https://www.greencoverseed.com/product/1071/ (https://www.greencoverseed.com/product/1071/)
The tops are sliced off before they are removed from the ground with a beet digger (at least in Idaho they are "topped" before digging). http://parmacompany.com/ag-equipment/sugarbeet/harvester/6-row/ (http://parmacompany.com/ag-equipment/sugarbeet/harvester/6-row/)
Sorry for the thread drift. ;)
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Fine N Scale makes a resin casting of a sugar beet load for the Intermountain 40'? car. https://www.finenscale.com/loads.html
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Fine N Scale makes a resin casting of a sugar beet load for the Intermountain 40'? car. https://www.finenscale.com/loads.html
The seeds they used for the master are a bit on the large size. :(
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As are the beets in real life. http://espee.railfan.net/sp_fcss-24.html. I know they aren't 3' long. You could distinguish individual beets in the car from about 15' away
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The seeds they used for the master are a bit on the large size. :(
Maybe someone will offer to design and render the load as a 3-d Shapeways printout. That way it could be made to scale. Shapeways parts are pricey. Once you have one print use it for casting more copies from urethane resin.
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3D print a pile of LOOSE sugar beets, then make masters from those. A carload will go further if all you use is a layer on top of something else, and you can make multiple loads. Shapeway can print moveable parts, so individual beets shouldn't be a problem. Doing the artwork may get a little tedious...
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Has anyone been able to successfully order these off the Tangent website? I've been able to put them in my cart and get close to checking out but when I click place order it says Internal Server Error. I really hope they can upgrade the e*commerce part of their website to handle all their new N scale orders. This is very frustrating.
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Has anyone been able to successfully order these off the Tangent website? I've been able to put them in my cart and get close to checking out but when I click place order it says Internal Server Error. I really hope they can upgrade the e*commerce part of their website to handle all their new N scale orders. This is very frustrating.
Can't buy then until they are received by tangent. The container is on the water and should be arriving at the warehouse around the middle of September
*** Edit ***
Nevermind. I misunderstood what they meant about their availability and ordering system
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Has anyone been able to successfully order these off the Tangent website? I've been able to put them in my cart and get close to checking out but when I click place order it says Internal Server Error. I really hope they can upgrade the e*commerce part of their website to handle all their new N scale orders. This is very frustrating.
I was able to order the 19 road numbers that I wanted, and I got a confirmation of my order. :D
However, when I tried to order using Internet Explorer I got an error, even after I created an account. So, I tried it with Firefox, logged in, and it worked! But, the page where you click on the image to open the page where you could add the model to the shopping cart was a little weird. :o
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Has anyone been able to successfully order these off the Tangent website? I've been able to put them in my cart and get close to checking out but when I click place order it says Internal Server Error. I really hope they can upgrade the e*commerce part of their website to handle all their new N scale orders. This is very frustrating.
Peter, we regret that the site was down yesterday but everything is in order today! When you place more than six car products into the cart it will calculate a discount for you. And the checkout will work.
Thank you for your patience with us during this growth period. And thank you for your pending business with us!
Best wishes,
David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models
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Peter, we regret that the site was down yesterday but everything is in order today! When you place more than six car products into the cart it will calculate a discount for you. And the checkout will work.
Thank you for your patience with us during this growth period. And thank you for your pending business with us!
Best wishes,
David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models
Thanks David!
Everything worked perfectly just now. Looking forward to late September!
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Kev,
We sell directly to consumers right from our website 24-7. Also, two hobby shops carry Tangent Scale Models in the UK - Model Junction and Mech Models.
Thank you in advance!
David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models
Thank you David, I have dealt with Model Junction before (and always recieved excellent service, even though they specialise in HO), but didn't realise they stocked your product... I'll contact them to get what I need!
Cheers,
Kev
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Got a shipping notification today from Tangent that my N scale UP 4 bay hoppers have shipped - right on time!
I can't wait to get them!
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Got a shipping notification today from Tangent that my N scale UP 4 bay hoppers have shipped - right on time!
I can't wait to get them!
All of the cars have been shipped from Tangent Scale Models now! Place your orders now to check them out!
Also, the cars have started to appear in stores this week if you want to order via that route!
Best wishes,
David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models
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Nevermind...
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All of the cars have been shipped from Tangent Scale Models now! Place your orders now to check them out!
Also, the cars have started to appear in stores this week if you want to order via that route!
Best wishes,
David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models
Awesome - I think I will pick up an undec to letter for one of the four cars that N&W and UP swapped.
Mark
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Tangent has 30 new UP numbers plus DT&I and HLMX ex UP repaints.
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Tangent has 30 new UP numbers plus DT&I and HLMX ex UP repaints.
Whew... that was close! He's doing H-100-19 in the original scheme rather than new numbers in H-100-16. The -19s are two years later, and I was already pushing the envelope on my modeling period with the -16s.
[...sigh...]
I might bite anyway, and confiscate any magnifying glasses brought into my train room by visitors. :trollface:
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Another 25 quad hoppers arrived from Tangent today. Like the ones before them, these are destined to hauling southern Idaho sugar beets.
Also, I was looking through my photos, and discovered this "non-preferred" way of unloading the sugar beets. :D
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/10/medium_828-040519230902.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=10724)
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Beautiful model, but I'd like to meet the 14 year old that can talk his old man into shelling out $600+ for a 20 car coal train.
I'm glad I'm an old guy and already have 100 hoppers. Yeesh.
Lee
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Beautiful model, but I'd like to meet the 14 year old that can talk his old man into shelling out $600+ for a 20 car coal train.
What... we can’t have nice things unless everybody can afford them? The 14 year old can start off with Atlas TrainMan cars. I’m glad Tangent is making models for the adults (with disposable income) in the crowd.
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Whew... that was close! He's doing H-100-19 in the original scheme rather than new numbers in H-100-16. The -19s are two years later, and I was already pushing the envelope on my modeling period with the -16s.
[...sigh...]
I might bite anyway, and confiscate any magnifying glasses brought into my train room by visitors. :trollface:
Mike,
Your post got me thinking that I really need a lot more of the "oxide red" hoppers compared to the black rotary hoppers for my sugar beet trains. M.B. Klein (ModelTrainStuff) has several of the first run hoppers still available. I wound up purchasing some duplicate numbers of the H-100-16 hoppers with the intent to replace the last digit of the road number on the factory painted cars with a different digit using Microscale decals.
I am not sure how well that is going to work yet, but I have noticed the sugar beet trains tend to utilize more of the earlier classes, and it looks like Tangent might be making there way from the earlier classes to the newer classes. The two releases of the N scale cars have mirrored the HO hoppers, and I think(?) Tangent started the HO scale hoppers with the earlier classes. I remember Tangent donated some of the HO scale hoppers from the initial run for the raffle at the 2010 Union Pacific Historical Society convention in Boise, ID, but I do not remember which class the hoppers were numbered for. :oops:
And, for those on a budget, the M.B. Klein price allows you to obtain a 20 car unit train for a little bit less than $500. ;)
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Fixing "Squeaking" Tangent Hoppers
When running the hoppers there was a noticeable squeak-squeak-squeak from 3-4 cars, coincident with poor rolling. I was attributing this to the previously-discussed issues of clearances related to the air hose, and didn't think much more about it. But it still bugged me.
Roundtuit in hand last night, problem was finally traced to axles rubbing on the screw securing the coupler box. It was a hard problem to quickly diagnose because it only occurred on the rails; turn the car over and spin the wheels, no problem, and the trucks by themselves are very free-rolling. On close exam I had run them just enough to see marks on the axles on the offending cars. Fix was to ream the countersink on the coupler boxes as the screw heads on these cars were ~0.010" proud of the box.
Yes, "shouldn't" be an issue relative to the price, but, to me, this is simply a cost of fine models, where attention to details and proportions collide with production tolerances. These are beautiful cars, and when Dave releases another batch of H100-16 cars in new numbers, they're in the budget.