TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: C855B on February 18, 2018, 05:44:31 PM
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The idea of a scale switchstand to actuate the points is one thing (nigh impossible), but I'm looking for indication. You know, something that rotates the flag (or lantern).
NJ International has a few static models for scene purposes which are nice enough - I do wish more folks would put switchstands and other trackside utility clutter in their yard scenes! - but I want operational indication as well as the scenery feature. When I'm away from the DS console and watching the trains run, it would be handy to know when I'm about to "find" an open switch the hard way. :facepalm:
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On my to-do list is to go out and measure one of the stands downtown Colorado Springs. I'd be up for trying to have something etched if someone has the measurements for a particular style.
The CGW had tall targets in Waterloo which make them even more part of the scenery.
Jason
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Consider it done. You might recall I have this:
(http://www.everywherewest.com/mailbox.jpg)
It was apparently the preferred or even standard style on the pre-merger UP. This particular one came off of the TP&W. I even have the UP-style lantern which fits the fork, but obviously it never gets left outside.
Weather notwithstanding, I'll use the measuring square I have for modeling-source photos and get a bunch of shots for you.
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The idea of a scale switchstand to actuate the points is one thing (nigh impossible), but I'm looking for indication. You know, something that rotates the flag (or lantern).
NJ International has a few static models for scene purposes which are nice enough - I do wish more folks would put switchstands and other trackside utility clutter in their yard scenes! - but I want operational indication as well as the scenery feature. When I'm away from the DS console and watching the trains run, it would be handy to know when I'm about to "find" an open switch the hard way. :facepalm:
Funny you should ask that. I'm literally working on something right now that is an operator and has the flag indicating position. I should have working prototypes in a day or two. I had made some pieces a couple of weeks ago from scraps I had laying about to see if the idea was right and workable. Based on those tests I ordered some ABS and spring wire to move forward with it. That stuff arrived last week. 8)
This was prompted by my planning for my engine house and the track/ switch rework that will require plus my dissatisfaction with current manual operators. At least one element, looks, size, or function, is missing in everything I've seen. This was always one of those things I would do someday and that engine house pushed it to today. :)
Not at all final but this should give a sense of where this I'm going with this. The wire crank looking piece is not the way it will be finished. A target will be used as the operator as well as the indicator, mountable low or high.
[attachimg=1]
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If I remember correctly from a while back when I took measurements with the same idea in mind, the ties on either side of the throw rod for an Atlas code 55 turnout are about twice as far apart as prototypical, mainly because the throw bar is made to look like another tie. So, trying to make an operating indicator for that turnout ends-up with something that either looks unprototypical in the mounting or is twice as large as prototypical. I sometimes try to imagine a prototypical-looking indicator that only attaches to one of those ties and ends over but does not attach to the throw bar, so that it looks like it has the proper span. Then some sort of lever is needed that attaches to the throw bar and moves under the indicator to rotate the "target" sitting between the throw bar and the adjacent tie. Making something that actually works and is not too fragile to last seems difficult.
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I have one old NJ International functional switch stand that operates like a real one. You lift the lever, swing it around, and drop it down. The rod is connected to a piece with a hole in it that throws the switch rod and thus, points.
At one time I had it temporarily installed to see if it would actually work. The throw was minimal, although it was enough to seat the points in both positions. It's fairly delicate and you almost have to use a tweezers to operate it.
Some day, I may try it again.
Doug
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Rapido makes an HO one. I don't know if they are planning one in N scale.
Rick
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This is an NJ International switch stand connected to a peco switch, so that the switch stand would rotate when you threw the switch (by pushing the rails with a finger - the switch stand wasn't strong enough to actually throw the switch). I had to drill an extra hole in the rod on the switch stand to make it the right length so that it would rotate 90 degrees in response to the peco throw distance. The layout doesn't exist anymore, so I can't go back and retake the picture so that the switch stand is in focus.
[attachimg=1]
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@Maletrain had it right, scale proportions and attach to just one of the ties. Here's a working concept I threw together. The bit of rectangular brass is cut moderately close to switchstand frame proportions. Post is 0.015" music wire, flag is a bit of 0.010" styrene I had sitting on the bench.
Not a valid vimeo URL
Need to slightly shorten the crank offset, but I think this sort of works. I should have pics for Jason tomorrow if there's a break in the rain we're supposed to get.
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Here is what I use on my layout to throw and show the position of Peco turnouts(photo 1).
Prototype is shown in photo 2.
It seems to me that the shaft the 'banjo' is mounted on and which I use to operate a micro-switch
under the roadbed to power the frog - could be turned with a crank from a the switch machine to rotate
the signal indicator.
Al
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The crank arm needed to turn 90 degrees on an indication only stand is nominally .028" with zero play in the pivots and based on a .040" throw. I say nominally because the turnout throw is not perfectly repeatable from one switch to another. The number I just mentioned is based on a .040" throw but it can easily be +/- .005". That .005" or more, then added to linkage play, even with pretty decent tolerances, will come up short or overshoot the 90 degrees very visibly.
The piece I'm working on has the target turning 90 degrees to hard stops. A spring accommodates the variance assuring a full throw and proper seat over a pretty decent variation. At least that's the plan. :) :D I could also make it power routing but my layout has frog juicers therefore doesn't need them. Once I get this refined a little I'll make one that powers the frog.
And before it's asked, no, I don't see any way to light the red/ green lantern while staying anywhere near scale but probably could light indicator lights. But who knows what might surface as we go (but I REALLY doubt it). :D
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And before it's asked, no, I don't see any way to light the red/ green lantern while staying anywhere near scale but probably could light indicator lights. But who knows what might surface as we go (but I REALLY doubt it). :D
The SMD 0201 LEDs are only 0.020" x 0.010" (3.2 x 1.6 scale inches). :D But getting power to them (without visible wires or oversize stand shaft) would be a challenge too.
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The SMD 0201 LEDs are only 0.020" x 0.010". :D But getting power to them (without visible wires or oversize stand shaft) would be a challenge too.
That's the problem. So far I think it will be reasonably robust but with the addition of miniature wires and miniature everything else is begging for nothing but a nightmare. And keeping it near scale which is being accomplished so far, reasonably, would suffer terribly just adding .010" to the base thickness. There might be a chance with fiber optic but even that may not work for getting a straight shot at the .015" shaft. And then how delicate would all of THAT be.
I have thought of one possibility but the cost?! :o It could get into double digits!!! :o ;) And we know how that flies. :D I'm kidding a little but a whole layout of stands could become quite an investment. I may try it anyway if only for myself and only on a few key ones. 8)
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That's the problem. So far I think it will be reasonably robust but with the addition of miniature wires and miniature everything else is begging for nothing but a nightmare. And keeping it near scale which is being accomplished so far, reasonably, would suffer terribly just adding .010" to the base thickness. There might be a chance with fiber optic but even that may not work for getting a straight shot at the .015" shaft. And then how delicate would all of THAT be.
I have thought of one possibility but the cost?! :o It could get into double digits!!! :o ;) And we know how that flies. :D I'm kidding a little but a whole layout of stands could become quite an investment. I may try it anyway if only for myself and only on a few key ones. 8)
I know - I was just egging you on. :D
Actually I was thinking of using a hollow shaft (stainless steel hypodermic tubing with a magnet wire (only one needed as the tubing would be the other pole) feed through it. But that is just me fantasizing. ;)
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..... - could be turned with a crank from a the switch machine to rotate
the signal indicator.
Al
There's a possibility, Mike. You have servos powering your turnouts, yes? Do they turn a fixed amount with a spring to take up variances and assure a seat? If they are turning a fixed amount and the arm at the servo is fairly long you might actually be able to make something that works by utilizing the bigger throw at the end of the servo arm. It gives you some real action to play with and the linkage tolerances and all become much less of an issue very quickly.
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The crank arm needed to turn 90 degrees on an indication only stand is nominally .028" with zero play in the pivots and based on a .040" throw. ...
Yeah, my numbers were pretty close to yours. The slop in the tabs on the points is somewhat vexing. Figuring on overtravel to hard stops in the switchstand itself with spring relief is maybe something we could manage with finer wire. I have some .010" phosphor bronze in a box somewhere for handrail projects and maybe should use that instead of the music wire for testing.
Yes, servos, but the way I've integrated them into the turnouts leaves nothing other than the throwbar to tap for moving the target. The throwbar is hard linked to the servo horn with no spring action, relying on the station-keeping function for points pressure.
I've been working on a scale 3D-printed lantern for a while:
(http://www.everywherewest.com/lantern.jpg)
It won't meet Shapeways' specs currently, but when I get the round-tuit to revise the artwork the intent is to try for illumination, 0.010 fiber or 0201 LED as you guys mentioned, using the 0.018" tubing ngineering.com has. I think it's doable.
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If you proceed with the approach you had in your video this might make your life easier. When bending your wire to make the throw arm, instead of trying to get the Z bend/ throw offset right at a number (like .028"), bend a comfortably larger offset that's easy to work with and will leave you enough material in the center of the arm to bend it again at roughly 90 degrees (whatever it takes) ;) bringing the two verticals back in to the dimension you're seeking. It will make getting accurate throw C/L's much easier, set very accurately with your calipers, and will also make them adjustable for the variations in the switch throws, corrected by how far you bend the arm. On installation you could measure the throw at each switch and then calculate the C/L needed, set it accurately with your calipers, and you should be good. The target must go on last, aligned in place.
Edit add: In case you didn't know this method, easy to do trackside with your calipers and a pocket calculator, the throw you'll need will be the travel of the switch x .7071". Add one wire diameter and you've got your crank arm number to the outside of the wire and to the tenths of thousandths. I won't tell if you round it to the nearest thousandth. :P
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I've a couple of sidings on the Plywood Panhandle where I use NJ International switch stands on my Atlas code 55 turnouts. I used a small piece of metal wire bent into a flat "U" to connect the stand to the switch then a bit of AC to hold it all in place. It was a bit of trail and error to get the wire the right length to throw properly.
https://youtu.be/_76QJEzscMA (https://youtu.be/_76QJEzscMA)
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Yeah, my numbers were pretty close to yours. The slop in the tabs on the points is somewhat vexing.
I don't understand unless you are using the turnout throw bar to actuate/turn the switch stand indicator.
Not a good idea IMHO.
The servos I've used are precise and repeatable. Would think Tortoises would be the same.
Instead of trying to illuminate the switch stand indicator why not use a dwarf signal in conjunction with the switch stand
or in lieu of same?
Al
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Micron Art used to make a so-called "Archimedean Ground Throw" (not sure if they still do) -
(http://www.spookshow.net/layout5/layoute86.jpg)
I don't know if you literally need to be Archimedes himself to put one together, but it probably couldn't hurt.
(http://www.spookshow.net/layout5/layoute87.jpg)
-Mark
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I don't understand unless you are using the turnout throw bar to actuate/turn the switch stand indicator.
Not a good idea IMHO.
The servos I've used are precise and repeatable. Would think Tortoises would be the same.
Al
I would think that it is a lot easier and more robust to throw the points with something other than this tiny position indicator we all want to make, and then let the throwbar move the indicator. Much less force involved on the indicator mechanism if all it needs to do is swivel a target by 90°.
Thinking outside the box for illumination: how about painting the lantern "lenses" with flourescent red and green paints, then shining a UV "black light" on them from the side that the engineer sees. That way, the only part flourescing would be the lens aimed at the engineer, and the other lens would be dark. That would only work in the dark, but lanterns on real railroads did not seem visible in bright daylight, either.
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The more I think about trying to get a protypical sized operating and illuminated switch stand in N-Scale it seems to be
an exercise in futility, especially if more than a couple are contemplated.
If successful a wall of protective plexi-glass will have to built around it and there goes the prototypical look.
From someone who has snapped off his share of signal posts.
Al
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Actually I was thinking of using a hollow shaft (stainless steel hypodermic tubing with a magnet wire (only one needed as the tubing would be the other pole) feed through it. But that is just me fantasizing.
I have been thinking about that for scale lamp posts. Do you know of a source for that tiny SS tubing? [Having already bought grow lights for early-starting garden seeds and a ±0.01 gram precision scale for scaling cooking recepies, I am sure to be on the DEA surveillance list anyway. :facepalm:]
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I have been thinking about that for scale lamp posts. Do you know of a source for that tiny SS tubing?
http://ngineering.com/
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For @alhoop and @spookshow : https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=40197.0
... how about painting the lantern "lenses" with flourescent red and green paints, then shining a UV "black light" on them from the side that the engineer sees. That way, the only part flourescing would be the lens aimed at the engineer, and the other lens would be dark. ...
I like your thinking. I already have UV lighting in the room, although it is not at a saturation that will make small spots of paint "pop". Maybe UV loco headlights? ;) Seriously, one of the main features I'm after with the illumination is night operations. This is the quality UV paint, too bad the variety pack is out of stock: https://www.blacklight.com/items/WF170005KT .
If you proceed with the approach you had in your video this might make your life easier. When bending your wire to make the throw arm, instead of trying to get the Z bend/ throw offset right at a number (like .028"), bend a comfortably larger offset that's easy to work with and will leave you enough material in the center of the arm to bend it again at roughly 90 degrees (whatever it takes) ;) bringing the two verticals back in to the dimension you're seeking. ...
Genius! However, the bent wire is proof-of-concept only. The goal is a bit of fine tubing with wire or fiber, and the crank offset will likely be an etched arm on that. I still have to mull 90° stops with overtravel.
I've a couple of sidings on the Plywood Panhandle where I use NJ International switch stands on my Atlas code 55 turnouts. I used a small piece of metal wire bent into a flat "U" to connect the stand to the switch then a bit of AC to hold it all in place. It was a bit of trail and error to get the wire the right length to throw properly. ...
Nice!
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What about designing a small sleeve that fits over the throwbar, and centers it between the two turnout guides, design a small rack on top that would engage a printed gear mounted on the hollow tube which would be positively located from the opposite side of the guide. The gearing would be designed based on the turnout travel which is actually pretty consistent. The targets could be the last thing added to the tube to ensure the proper angles.
It might not be possible given the sizes and radii, but might be worth looking into.
Like this (Not to scale and ratio not calculated). Throwbar and guides would slide into the rectangular holes and glued to each one respectively:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/4/2711-190218130152.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=4894)
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That seems like overkill design. And, maybe pretty bulky to be strong enough if printed in FUD.
I was thinking of a cast "body" that sits on one of the "guide ties" with a tab down one side to attach to the side of that tie. The other side would extend over to the far side of the "throw-bar tie" and be raised a bit off of it, so that a wire with a bent offset of about 0.03" would allow it to go through the throwbar hole, bend to horizontal to go under the casting, and then bend back to verticle to go up through a hole in the center of the casting. So, assembly would be easy. Put the wire in the casting, put the lower end of the wire in the turnout throw bar, position the casing on the other tie, and add a tad of CA to fix it there. Then put the indicator of choice on the top of the wire, positioned to properly align as the turnout points move, and CA it in-place.
Bending the wire consistently could be done with a jig. Casting and drilling the body should not be too hard once a nice pattern is made. A lantern indicator could also be cast.
What I am having some trouble figuring is how to make the unlighted, flat indicators that have the horizontal red and upward angled green vanes. Making something that has that 90° connection, fits on the wire, and does not look too thick seems hard. Is there any sort of cruciform extrusion small enough to cut those from. It might look a little off, but just gluing that to the wire might be OK.
Whatever design is finally desided on, I think it needs to be pretty cheap to make, pretty easy to install, and robust enough to last. Otherwise, it is going to be used only in competition diaramas, not operating layouts.
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The gearing would be designed based on the turnout travel which is actually pretty consistent.
From the previous discussion I got the impression that the non-consistent travel, comparig one turnout to another, was actually quite a large part of the problem. Otherwise a really nice desgin :)
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I think you're going to run into issues with Shapeways' FXD minimums, if that's your benchmark. A variation of this idea of this may work better in etched metal. The solid rack-and-pinion is good work and would result in something durable. But Lennart is right, the biggest challenge is 90° end stops and spring connection between the throwbar and post for the overtravel to flex for the stops.
It stopped raining, so I need to get my butt out of the house and over to the studio to take those pictures.
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I have been thinking about that for scale lamp posts. Do you know of a source for that tiny SS tubing?
I used to get my SS hypo-tubing from Small Parts Inc. They had a *HUGE* selection of those and lots of other useful items. But several years ago they got absorbed into Amazon and it is a format shadow it itself (and last time I tried to shop on their website was not fun). N-gineering has some of that tubing too, but you can always Google "stainless steel hypodermic tubing" for some additional sources.
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For Jason @wcfn100 , photos of a Pettibone-Mulliken "Star" switchstand including a handy ruler are here: http://www.everywherewest.com/switchstand/
General close-up:
(http://www.everywherewest.com/switchstand_sample.jpg)
A fun surprise while I was outside taking the switchstand pics:
(http://www.everywherewest.com/switchstand/IMG_3086.JPG)
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Thx, Mike. I'll see what I can do. I've got a sheet of .1mm and .2mm started with random stuff so that will be the first decision.
Jason
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Back in the early 1970s I helped a friend install switchstand turnout throws on Shinohara code 70 turnouts.
They were scaled down "Slanzer" (the NMRA author) throws made from music wire and K&S brass tubing. The plans came from an NMRA "Bulletin" from the same decade.
The throw had a 270 degree rotation with sprung pressure to the points and also provided selected electrical power to the points/frog.
The parts were mass prefabricated and could be mounted to a block to ease installation. The handle above the layout could be made near scale and targets/lantern added for appearance.
Charlie Vlk
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Back in the early 1970s I helped a friend install switchstand turnout throws on Shinohara code 70 turnouts.
They were scaled down "Slanzer" (the NMRA author) throws made from music wire and K&S brass tubing. The plans came from an NMRA "Bulletin" from the same decade.
The throw had a 270 degree rotation with sprung pressure to the points and also provided selected electrical power to the points/frog.
The parts were mass prefabricated and could be mounted to a block to ease installation. The handle above the layout could be made near scale and targets/lantern added for appearance.
Charlie Vlk
In N scale!? Or was it H0?
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The article was for HO, the layout was N. We scaled down the parts for N. The advent of Kadee Micro-Trains trucks and cars uncovered that all the then-current Peco turnouts were tight gauge over the points necessitating replacement of all 50 or so on the railroad. We did the conversion over a two week period IIRC.
Bruce Turner, the owner, was a dispatcher on the BN. We had a round-robin club called the Bolingbrook Branchliners. I was transferred out of the area and he moved on to the Black Hills and elsewhere for his career. Last I heard he was retired in the St Louis area and wasn't in good health.
Charlie Vlk
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I think you're going to run into issues with Shapeways' FXD minimums, if that's your benchmark. A variation of this idea of this may work better in etched metal. The solid rack-and-pinion is good work and would result in something durable. But Lennart is right, the biggest challenge is 90° end stops and spring connection between the throwbar and post for the overtravel to flex for the stops.
It stopped raining, so I need to get my butt out of the house and over to the studio to take those pictures.
Nope. That's already designed to SW minimums. The radii in the tip of each tooth is R0.2mm, although I have not sent it for an official SW pass.
Ask yourself if you really are worried about the target face being perfectly perpendicular to the track. In reality my design is adjustable, the rack can slide on the throwbar until you have it where you want it. Or as I mentioned, the targets could be glued in place after install. Then as Long as you alive 90 degrees of radial travel the other target face shot in turn be perpendicular. If you gear it properly, there's should be no need for stops. You just need 90 degrees of axial rotation for 2.?mm of lateral movement in the points. That is the biggest obstacle for a geared design. But in reality you have already achieved that with a lever. The etched gear is a good idea too.
What you see is merely conceptual and actually is quite small.
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Nope. That's already designed to SW minimums. The radii in the tip of each tooth is R0.2mm, although I have not sent it for an official SW pass.
Ask yourself if you really are worried about the target face being perfectly perpendicular to the track. In reality my design is adjustable, the rack can slide on the throwbar until you have it where you want it. Or as I mentioned, the targets could be glued in place after install. Then as Long as you alive 90 degrees of radial travel the other target face shot in turn be perpendicular. If you gear it properly, there's should be no need for stops. You just need 90 degrees of axial rotation for 2.?mm of lateral movement in the points. That is the biggest obstacle for a geared design. But in reality you have already achieved that with a lever. The etched gear is a good idea too.
What you see is merely conceptual and actually is quite small.
I don't know if folks realize how small this needs to be to be functional with a .040" switch travel, and possibly less. The theory doesn't need to consider size but actually making one does. ;)
With no play in the linkage or gear lash the pinion gear will have to have a .051" (1.295 mm) pitch line. An 8 tooth .2 mod pinion gear (as small as it gets hoping for availability and already stretching the minimum tooth limit) is already at 1.6 mm. That's 19% error meaning it shows in travel at that amount and then add any lash in the gears directly to that. If you can get a .15 mod 8 tooth gear (and the rack) you may be able to do it but that's TINY and I'm not aware of any ready source for such a thing. But those are the numbers. :)
Mike, do you have a picture of your servo setup? If you could get just a little more throw (it doesn't have to be 90 degrees, just action convertible to linear motion more than .040") to work with the thing becomes exponentially easier to accomplish and with a simple lever as described earlier.
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Here's a conversion I did a few years ago for one of my brothers. (This isn't the first time i've thought about this.) :D
/>
I wasn't modelling at the time but did a few of these for his use. It's a code 80 turnout and what this is is an operating switch stand but for use as a manual operator for a standard Atlas twin coil that was flipped over and mounted under the switch and sat in a 1/4" deep pocket in the benchwork. That made for a clean installation but lost the manual operation, hence the design as demonstrated. It was indication but also manual overide.
One of the reasons to show it was that it actually reached and was driven by (as well as driving, in manual) the inverted manual button on the Atlas machine. Those machines have a fixed travel of 1/4" so the travel was sufficient to make a lever that worked reliably and the motion was repeatable so the crank arm could be accurately made ahead of time with the precision needed for all parts to function properly. It worked really well and the throw was quite accurate.
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... Mike, do you have a picture of your servo setup? If you could get just a little more throw ...
As you can see, not easily attainable:
(http://www.everywherewest.com/servo_ii_installed.jpg)
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I played around with this for a while. As others have mentioned, the challenge is the very short throw and the very short crank dimension, both of which will be individual to each turnout to some degree.
Briggs Models offers a Racor 31B switch stand kit with resin base and etched staff and target. It is designed to be operable if desired, but does not come with any mechanism.
My main concern with these is susceptibility to damage.
Tim
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I see. I actually like that assembly for powering, though. 8)
If you laid it out I'll bet you could come up with a small pivot on the adjacent fixed tie, driven by the throw bar, with a decent length pigtail extending away from that pivot to the stand to amplify the motion that the stand sees. That could be bent at the pivot to change the direction (90 degrees back maybe?) and keep it aimed in the desired direction of the stand's mounting window. The 90 quadrant in the stand could be oriented to whatever position the amplifying spring arm wound up in. If it was from small, maybe .010" or less music wire, it could have a little bit of over travel built in to handle variations from different turnout travels while driving the stand into a fixed stop. The flex in the spring wire would assure accurate full travel and accommodate errors that might do damage. This method might lend itself to some Shapeways parts, too.
One way might be to engage the throw bar from underneath, over to the bottom side of the adjacent tie, up through a drilled hole, and then bent down in the direction of your stand with a long whisker that ultimately drives the stand at some distance away and therefore plenty of travel. Lay it out and see if that might not be a viable approach. Another option you have with these ties is they are solvent weldable so you might even be able to make your pivot assembly from ABS or styrene on the bench as a sub assembly and then position it to the tie and solvent weld it in place. No flaky glue or CA joints.
There's gotta' be a way! :D
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I used to get my SS hypo-tubing from Small Parts Inc. They had a *HUGE* selection of those and lots of other useful items. But several years ago they got absorbed into Amazon and it is a format shadow it itself (and last time I tried to shop on their website was not fun). N-gineering has some of that tubing too, but you can always Google "stainless steel hypodermic tubing" for some additional sources.
In addition, there is Albion.
http://www.mmodelstore.com/albionalloys.aspx (http://www.mmodelstore.com/albionalloys.aspx)
Not stainless, but nickel silver is still pretty darn durable, and a big advantage is that you can solder to it.
I have been using the Albion brass micro tubes on my 0-6-0. The stuff is wonderful.
Smallest size is 0.3mm OD, 0.1mm ID. That would be a tube only .012" OD, with a bore of about .0039". Yikes.
Of course, they have larger sizes in 0.1mm increments. Something between 0.5mm and 1mm (3 - 6" in N Scale) ought to work well.
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I see. I actually like that assembly for powering, though. 8)
If you laid it out I'll bet you could come up with a small pivot on the adjacent fixed tie, driven by the throw bar, with a decent length pigtail extending away from that pivot to the stand to amplify the motion that the stand sees. That could be bent at the pivot to change the direction (90 degrees back maybe?) and keep it aimed in the desired direction of the stand's mounting window. The 90 quadrant in the stand could be oriented to whatever position the amplifying spring arm wound up in. If it was from small, maybe .010" or less music wire, it could have a little bit of over travel built in to handle variations from different turnout travels while driving the stand into a fixed stop. The flex in the spring wire would assure accurate full travel and accommodate errors that might do damage. This method might lend itself to some Shapeways parts, too.
One way might be to engage the throw bar from underneath, over to the bottom side of the adjacent tie, up through a drilled hole, and then bent down in the direction of your stand with a long whisker that ultimately drives the stand at some distance away and therefore plenty of travel. Lay it out and see if that might not be a viable approach. Another option you have with these ties is they are solvent weldable so you might even be able to make your pivot assembly from ABS or styrene on the bench as a sub assembly and then position it to the tie and solvent weld it in place. No flaky glue or CA joints.
There's gotta' be a way! :D
Yes there is- leverage.
The image below is to scale mates to the Atlas turnout dimensions, will print in FUD and my motion file says it will move and deliver 90 degrees of travel over +/- 0.6mm of (my) measured travel of the throwbar. The lever will be trapped by the stand when as the final part of assembly.\ and the targets aligned as the last step. the tuber diameter is 0.8mm.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/4/2711-200218142127.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=4905)
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This is an NJ International switch stand connected to a peco switch, so that the switch stand would rotate when you threw the switch (by pushing the rails with a finger - the switch stand wasn't strong enough to actually throw the switch). I had to drill an extra hole in the rod on the switch stand to make it the right length so that it would rotate 90 degrees in response to the peco throw distance. The layout doesn't exist anymore, so I can't go back and retake the picture so that the switch stand is in focus.
This is what I plan on doing. I have the NJI switch stands on hand, and they will pivot when connected to the turnout throwbar.
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I still need to lay it out, but this is the design I'm going for using .2mm.
(http://www.cgwmodeler.com/picturepost/stand.png)
Not sure if it will even work, but I'll throw it on my next .2mm sheet I have etched.
Jason
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Yes there is- leverage.
The image below is to scale mates to the Atlas turnout dimensions, will print in FUD and my motion file says it will move and deliver 90 degrees of travel over +/- 0.6mm of (my) measured travel of the throwbar. The lever will be trapped by the stand when as the final part of assembly.\ and the targets aligned as the last step. the tube diameter is 0.8mm.
This looks good, John, and was pretty close to a thought I had. Big plus with your idea is eliminating the need to precision-drill the throwbar for the lever dog. You'll probably want 0.46mm on the tube, corresponding to the 0.018" tubing from ngineering.com (http://www.ngineering.com/tubing.htm). Also, you might think about ridges on the fixed piece (bearing block?) to act as shelves for the switchstand. Or - could this be made to work underneath the ties, with a little bit of excavation?
I still need to lay it out, but this is the design I'm going for using .2mm.
(http://www.cgwmodeler.com/picturepost/stand.png)
Not sure if it will even work, but I'll throw it on my next .2mm sheet I have etched.
Jason
Yummy! If we can make it work, you know I'll need a 55-gallon drum of 'em. If you had to use a .3 or .4mm sheet (with strategic half-etches) for strength that wouldn't be awful.
Many thanks to you both for exercising your CAD skills like this!
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Here is some info from a Gordon Odegard article in Model Railroader Feb 1981 on how to figure the length of the crank.
Paraphrasing " .. the length of the crank, R, is determined by the amount of point movement, or throw.
In HO the point throw is about .125". Whatever the dimension is, square the dimension, divide the result by 2,
and extract the square root of the answer. " This answer is the length of the crank.
It would be interesting to try this on Mike's micro,micro,micro servo operated turnout.
Al
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Here is some info from a Gordon Odegard article in Model Railroader Feb 1981 on how to figure the length of the crank.
Paraphrasing " .. the length of the crank, R, is determined by the amount of point movement, or throw.
In HO the point throw is about .125". Whatever the dimension is, square the dimension, divide the result by 2,
and extract the square root of the answer. " This answer is the length of the crank.
It would be interesting to try this on Mike's micro,micro,micro servo operated turnout.
Al
... or take the throw travel x .7071 as I said above. 8) Whichever you find easier. ;)
Metric? :| Same multiplier. 8)
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This was a topic of much interest to me many years ago. At that time (over 20 years ago), there was a company named "Sequoia Scale Model" (since gone out of business and then being bought up by Muir Models and was once available at Walthers by the name "Sequoia Scale Models by TMW"...and I can't find any current listings) who produced a switch stand in what was known as a "D&RGW #4 Switch Stand" and as an "N-scale Switch Stand".
The kits cost $1.89 and there were two injection molded switch stands in the bubble pack, and I bought up about a dozen or so of the kits, not thinking they would be going out of business in the near future.
However, they kinda bit the dust around 1985 or so, and I started collecting the kits, even posting a pitiful plea here on TRW back in 2012 to buy or trade anybody who had these kits. Of course, the only ones who seriously knew about them also wanted to buy or trade for them, so I got no offers here! LOL!
Photo (1) - Sequoia Scale Models HO D&RGW #4 Switch Stands in Package:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/4/1200-210218043321.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=4914)
Photo (2) - Sequoia Scale Models N-scale Switch Stand Kit with Preiser Pre-Painted Fisherman (at 6', 1" tall) for Relative Size:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/4/1200-210218035513.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=4911)
I decided to not attempt to make these injection-molded, scale-sized models "functional", but link them to my turnouts' throwbars which are activated by under-layout Tortoises. I replaced the target shafts with piano wire of a proper diameter, as opposed to the scale 4" diameter of the injection molded shafts, both for looks and durability.
Unfortunately, I don't have any photos of these, which I installed on my two 6' long Ntrak modules depicting Devils Slide in Weber Canyon. However, they were real crowd stoppers, especially linked to the slow-mo throwing action of the Tortoises under the scenery!
Also, they were fragile, being Styrene and were broken often by over-enthusiastic Ntrakers obsessively cleaning track. I didn't care too much as the piano wire target shaft acted as a "keeper" for the tiny parts and a little Tenax welded it all back together.
The rotating targets gave plenty of indication of how the turnouts were thrown, which was good for me since I have no LEDs or visible toggle switches on my layout. I also replaced the cast Styrene targets with .003 brass punchings, with embossed attachment "rivets" I applied with my NWSL riveter tool.
Also, the prototype up Weber Canyon had removed all of their lanterns from the tops of their switch stands, so at that point in my model railroading preferences, no illuminated lanterns were wanted.
Truth is, prototype switch stands are pretty big, with the tops of the targets being at or over 6' tall...and the lanterns being another 8 to 10 inches above that.
Photo (3) - Here's a good photo of the relative size of a prototype switch stand vs the switchman doing his job on a hot day:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/4/1200-210218041052.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=4912)
A couple of years ago, I was getting to the point I wanted to start putting switch stands on my Echo LDE with the two yards and fueling trackage, but I wanted them to be much more durable than Styrene. Being an ex-manufacturer of lost-wax HO scale detail parts, I had the equipment to cast the Sequoia models up in brass, but I didn't want to set it all up, so I went into town to check with a local rock shop who I knew did custom investment casting, taking half a dozen of the kits along with me as well as a handful of brass pellets I had used years ago to cast up my HO scale parts. Using my material and the plastic models as the "waxes" which the molten brass would replace, the casting guy at the rock shop said it would cost me $25 bucks for a test cast. Three days later, I had six shiny brass versions of the Sequoia model! I went home, cut open a couple of dozen of my Sequoia bubble packs, and three days later I had 48 brass versions for $35 bucks.
Photo (4) - Here's a brass version of the Sequoia Scale Models kit, minus the base plate which is soldered to the headblocks of one of my hand laid turnouts:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/4/1200-210218042917.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=4913)
Since I am gonna build both the Riverdale and Ogden Yards in the near future, I am going to need hundreds of these switch stands. Luckily, I have both the equipment and skills to make vulcanized rubber molds of brass masters, and I have over 50 brass masters in my possession at this point! I also have a large, commercial wax injector to make the waxes to take down to the rock shop to cast up, which costs me about 50 cents per brass rendition or less. I'm not sure how many wax master my casting guy at the rock shop can put in a single canister, but we will find out in the near future.
After doing a bit more research in the intervening years about switch stands in the transition era, it became evident that in the late 40's and early 50's, nearly ALL switchstands had lanterns on top. However, from photos, it also was evident that they weren't lit up during daylight hours, so for daylight operations, I didn't need to illuminate them, and from past experience, the round targets are sufficient for me to immediately see how my turnouts are thrown.
Photo (5) - Photo of Switch Stand with Lantern in 1946 at Cache Junction:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/4/1200-210218045107.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=4915)
Looking closely at this photo, @wcfn100 could you do a half-etch on the target, leaving three bolt heads running vertically on one side? Also, a half etch on the stand's platform with some mounting bolt heads on it would add a bit of detail that would really set your etched kit off!
Although the idea of running a wire up a hollow shaft to power an LED is a clever idea, I am pretty sure that if you're looking for a prototype sized switch stand, this protocol isn't gonna give you a near-scale sized model. My suggestion is to use the smallest red and green MV lenses to reflect colored red or green light back at you. This may not work all the time, but most of the time, these small reflectors throw an amazing amount of light directly back to the viewer. I know this from using these tiny MV lenses on my caboose lanterns. At shows I get many people asking me how I powered the lights in the lanterns on the back of my train! And they show up prominently in my photos.
Photo (6) - MV Lenses on N-scale Caboose Lanterns:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aRuPRf8k8hWpZyhdR0LwVdsRVZ_zZnS5qKT85NzwnbDz1IIx6f_nL42TJaZI8qT2pUdzftBTIdSDiDjMC5Vbx_Vq0QhVzeqNwlXQf_POm7ChjVfuOFs6Ag7Nri3f6UkOcfdDpgzy3J--ppHnPQKQR7LQK9ETsyKp85xoa0ufEu2ZRuZ11K71u8-t_fzgB9wbLMWaicfb0NlBXYeqzdh4UD8aWw63ipivqfeDaBcZBjcRrmVawy1XVWr6BviR74xJiDZ2C1IT_0S0Q60LXaeDdtvhjCQNl6Y60Tc6VguZeQ2edh3cA4NLC9NGX9SSkLyyc3SwdeS3vGiFR2ZzITGi4xBfW936Q9_QvBrBFjYFUFjJrZnJ9k763qp136wDBdq3L-m4NW5sh4mdqfB4IQL1c1jqgKR6C-my_8AAkgmrRI6-CaHuG_oK7QGKXj086FE2g5EkYbV6KA37vOba7o6Xd6oCoIpB31oF9DyyVLhf6tbusbdc3_l4bymDrSs_Pib5Dcf-N5NdLCGr3groqMMpvsTZG27Us8Sl3pdaG5AABy7LoUNOwWSRynisUfK0unVF00m-4TjvLQRfudO6SOyPQqAfRdY5gPolpgAjw64=w1376-h996-no)
As for me, I'll continue to keep my fingers off the layout as much as possible, although I admire efforts to make N-scale switch stands that work like the real deal! The main problem IMO is getting that tiny key into the switch lock's keyhole!
I apologize for not having any photos of my completed brass switch stands, but my recent move to a new residence has put me behind on a dozen or more projects which are now in boxes waiting for me to get my workbench up, so...I don't have any soldered up yet! Maybe in a week or two...
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
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... or take the throw travel x .7071 as I said above. 8) Whichever you find easier. ;)
Metric? :| Same multiplier. 8)
So you did and I read that post - just did not make the connection.
My apologies.
Al
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Looking closely at this photo, @wcfn100 could you do a half-etch on the target, leaving three bolt heads running vertically on one side? Also, a half etch on the stand's platform with some mounting bolt heads on it would add a bit of detail that would really set your etched kit off!
At current, the half etch is on the backside as a guide for the target to mount to the staff. Since it's already half etched, I would think the rivets could be embossed. :?
Right now it's just about seeing if this is possible be cause of the really small size. The drawing is done, but it's going on a sheet with 3-4 other projects, so it'll be a few weeks.
Jason
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I'm in the office, but I'm super tempted to say at home I have an Alkem models N scale lineside kit at home. It included semaphore signal heads, tie plates and bars, different whistle posts and switch stands with targets. I don't know if they still make it, but it gave instructions on how to make it function with piano wire.
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So you did and I read that post - just did not make the connection.
My apologies.
Al
Please don't apologize! :D I was just teasing a little and wanted to make sure folks knew the easy way. 8) That mention was buried at the end of a post with some other stuff and was EASY to miss. I put it there so folks who were following the issues I was raising could very simply (no formulas required) do their own numbers and realize what they were up against.
Now that it's been brought up though, that is a VERY useful number at the workbench especially for the math challenged but also for the experienced folks. It's just so EASY and only requires remembering that number and the simplest pocket calculator. 8) You can do anything you want with squares to circles, lever arms as this example was, circles to squares, etc. I use it all of the time around the shop. 8)
Example: What square could I machine onto a piece of 3/4" round? .75 x .7071 = .5303". That would be the max with sharp corners. From there you might increase your square size a little to have rounded corners and maybe a standard wrench size. So with the window established and the next standard wrench size being 9/16", do it backwards from there using 9/16" flats to get the circle at the corners. .5625" divided by .7071 = .7955" diameter. .7955' - .75 = .0455, divided by 2 = .022" diameter reduction at the each corner leaving a decent corner break. Or if you wanted to use 1/2" for the square for some reason, still with rounded corners, maybe .01" per side, then do the numbers for 1/2" to get the true diameter and then subtract .02" from that to get the diameter that you need to turn the 3/4" down to. See how that works and how useful it could be?
Even if you only remember the multiplier but don't remember whether to multiply or divide, just do one and make sure that the answer follows logic. If you know the flat you can also know that the corners will be some number larger without knowing what that number will be. But it WILL be larger. SO run it one way and if it's smaller, do the opposite. Same with levers. If you have a lever of a known length and it's attached to something that turns 90 degrees, with that number you can know what the linear travel will be. It's the reverse of what we were doing here when we knew the travel but needed the lever so it's as simple as divide by .7071. Pretty cool and so easy. 8)
And now, with that understood, you can do all of those same things with hexes. That number is .866. Write them down inside a drawer or something. If you're a putterer I promise you'll use them some day. 8) And they aren't ballpark but the real deal with more decimal places than any sane person will ever use. :) :D
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One thing to remember when calculating the length of the crank arm to turn the indicator: lash. The throw rod may or may not be very tight to the points. So, it is the travel distance of the rod that makes the points move, not the travel distance of the points themselves (which is easier to measure), that determines how much you multiply by 0.707 to get the crank arm length. For that matter, if there is much lash in the connection of the crank arm to the throw bar (e.g., ovesized hole), that needs to be subtracted out of the throw bar travel distance, because that part of the motion won't transfer to the crank.
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And now, with that understood, you can do all of those same things with hexes. That number is .866.
hexes ??? :?
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hexes ??? :?
I guess sort of like a more mathematical "666", a curse upon the design. :facepalm:
... Thinking outside the box for illumination: how about painting the lantern "lenses" with flourescent red and green paints, then shining a UV "black light" on them from the side that the engineer sees. That way, the only part flourescing would be the lens aimed at the engineer, and the other lens would be dark. That would only work in the dark, but lanterns on real railroads did not seem visible in bright daylight, either.
And a test thereof:
(http://www.everywherewest.com/uv_switchstand1.jpg) (http://www.everywherewest.com/uv_switchstand2.jpg)
This was with both a UV-LED wash from the overhead and a separate CFL UV light from the right, the flare you see on the dark version. Might be doable, trick is keeping it even.
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hexes ??? :?
Maybe I should have said hex shapes. 8) If you know the dimension across the flats and need the corners, or diameter and want to know what the flats of a hex shape could be on that round, that's your number. :) Or are wanting to put a 6 hole concentric pattern around a center, that's the number you can use to dial it in with regular X/ Y coordinates, same as the square multiplier. You might have to use some logic as once the corners and flats are known you may need to half a few of those numbers as that logic presents itself. Try it. It's fun! :| :D
This was especially useful in a regular old milling machine with just X/ Y tables. No need to set up a rotary table which is another logical way to do this. With just those two numbers you can figure hole patterns of 4, 6, 8, or 12 symmetrically placed holes, all things encountered with some regularity around machine work. It's handy and is absolutely accurate.
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It's fun! :| :D
I'm sure it is :facepalm:
Thanks for the explanation!
EDIT: And I should have recognized 0.866 as sin(60 degrees)
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I'm sure it is :facepalm:
Thanks for the explanation!
EDIT: And I should have recognized 0.866 as sin(60 degrees)
... and .7071 as sin of 45 degrees. Very simple and handy around the shop. 8)
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link broken
deleted
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I don't know if this will help or not, but here's a photo of the Alkem switchstand kit. They said with some fiddling they can be made functional with 0.010 wire.
https://flic.kr/p/F4uRXM
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I don't see those on the Alkem site in N scale, now, even under "discontinued". So, I assume they are gone. Of course somebody else could etch the same thing. But, I think it is the "little fiddling with 0.010" wire"to make it functional that we are really talking about here, anyway.
The targets look like a good thing to etch, even if nothing else is, because it is hard to make something that thin that can be assembled as 2 planes crossing on a 90° angle. Still, mounting that assembly on that 0.010" wire might be somewhat tricky, unless it goes up along one of the 90° corners and we don't look at it from that side.