TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: BCR751 on November 23, 2015, 02:40:10 PM
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Looking for a bunch of these to make some retaining walls. Searched the web but didn't see anything similar. Is anyone making these in N-Scale?
Doug
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5713/22624964184_21cf541040_m.jpg)
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Similar...
http://www.greatlakesmodels.com/Product%20Detail%20Pages/N%20Scale%20Product%20Detail%20Pages/015%20002%20415%20010%20N%20Scale%20Concrete%20Barriers.html
Another company makes some like the Great Lakes Models version above, too, but they are more pricey than GLM. I can't recall who it was though.
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I just bought some of the Fine N Scale version of these with a slightly different top. MBK seems to be out of them now.
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FWIW They are usually called eco blocks in the construction trades.
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I just bought some of the Fine N Scale version of these with a slightly different top. MBK seems to be out of them now.
Scott,
Just had a look at the Fine N Scale website and these look like just what I need. What are the "thingys" on the ends of the blocks that look like large fans? Are they used to hook the blocks together?
Doug
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They are flash that need to be cut off. The blocks come as individuals, and some groups including a few multi-row groups.
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I read that as "lock box" .. :trollface:
[attachimg=1]
Seriously though, these would be a cinch of a project for Shapeways...
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I read that as "lock box" .. :trollface
Seriously though, these would be a cinch of a project for Shapeways...
I thought the same thing. Now, if someone would do them..............
Doug
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I thought the same thing. Now, if someone would do them..............
Doug
If someone can provide the dimensions, I'll model them up in CAD.
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If someone can provide the dimensions, I'll model them up in CAD.
2.5'W x 2.5'H x 5.0'L I don't know what the dimensions of the "keys" on to top are but that should be easy to figure out using CAD and the block dimensions. Only the top row should have keys showing anyway so the majority of them should be flat on top. Maybe make them in 1, 2, or 3 row stacks, say, 10, 15 and 20 feet long. Just suggesting......
Doug
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3D printing is nice, but if you need 20 or 30 of them then the cost might start creeping up. Best way would be to 3D print the master pattern then mold them in resin.
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3D printing is nice, but if you need 20 or 30 of them then the cost might start creeping up. Best way would be to 3D print the master pattern then mold them in resin.
I'll need lot more than that. Oh well, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Maybe someone will try molding some in resin. I'm in for a bunch.
Doug
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Have you thought about making them out of square styrene as close to the dims you want. Then cut to length. I made heaps using a small jig to cut them. Roughed up the edges then stacked them after painting them a concrete colour. I used them at my cement distributors in the town of Guthrie on my RR.
Did the job fine for me so just another way.
Rod.
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Rod's solution is good for walls, but if you want the top detail, why re-invent the wheel? $5 and you have a pack of 30 or so.
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What about using Lego's?
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I made mine exactly the way Rod describes.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-07KKxxdgA8s/VlXlUQlOsjI/AAAAAAAAAbo/HlDGwqqRNbg/s1024-Ic42/Redi-Mix_1a.jpg)
And to show part of the obligatory coal trestle at left for @Chris333 ;)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vj1-qRkFxkc/VlXlUuvZirI/AAAAAAAAAbs/giPREXRsUO8/s640-Ic42/Redi-Mix_2.jpg)
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How about making a mold then casting them out of Hydrocal (which has the right color already) or tinted Plaster of Paris?
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Okay, got it modeled. Now to see if I can manage to upload the pictures.
Top side
(http://[attach=1])
Bottom side
(http://[attach=2])
What do you all think? If they look okay I can convert the file to SLA and send it off to Shapeways. 'spose I should probably put a bunch of them on a sprue, first though, huh?
I've never done anything with Shapeways. Anybody out there that can tutor me on it? (And keep in mind, I have the IQ of your average bubblegum wrapper. :facepalm:)
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Okay, got it modeled. Now to see if I can manage to upload the pictures.
Top side
(http:// (Attachment Link) )
Bottom side
(http:// (Attachment Link) )
What do you all think? If they look okay I can convert the file to SLA and send it off to Shapeways. 'spose I should probably put a bunch of them on a sprue, first though, huh?
I've never done anything with Shapeways. Anybody out there that can tutor me on it? (And keep in mind, I have the IQ of your average bubblegum wrapper. :facepalm:)
GimpLizard:
They look really good. May I suggest getting some done in stacks, say 5 or 10 blocks long and 2 and 3 blocks high. Also, maybe do some half-blocks. It may keep the cost down for those of us who need a lot of these.
Doug
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Since these blocks appear to be solid, they will be quite pricey (I mentioned this earlier in this thread already). Especially of one needs a lot of them. They would be much less expensive if they could be made hollow. After all, who needs the bottom details anyway? :)
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See photos upthread a little where I have just made them from square Evergreen tube and some small diameter half round. I used stainless lift rings for the visible ones.
It's pretty easy to roll your own.
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Well, I have no idea what the cost of getting these done by Shapeways is. I just thought it would be a good idea since that way, I wouldn't have to build my own. I will likely need upwards of a hundred of these so cost is definitely a factor for me. I admire GimpLizard for taking on the task of designing them for Shapeways but if it is cost prohibitive, maybe we should not go that route. I checked out the offering from Fine N Scale and, to me at least, they look a little rough i.e. they don't appear to fit well together. Maybe ScottL can shed some light on these since he has purchased some already.
I will, if I have to, make my own. I don't have a problem with that I just want to spend that time doing other stuff. So, GimpLizard, if you want to go ahead and send the design to Shapeways, do so and we'll know what the cost is soon enough. I'll have to decide at that point how I will proceed.
Thanks for all the input, guys. Good discussion.
Doug
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Since these blocks appear to be solid, they will be quite pricey (I mentioned this earlier in this thread already). Especially of one needs a lot of them. They would be much less expensive if they could be made hollow. After all, who needs the bottom details anyway? :)
Peteski,
The actual size of these are 3/8 x 3/16 x 3/16. Hollowing them out wouldn't save much material.
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GimpLizard:
They look really good. May I suggest getting some done in stacks, say 5 or 10 blocks long and 2 and 3 blocks high. Also, maybe do some half-blocks. It may keep the cost down for those of us who need a lot of these.
Doug
Good idea, Doug. I was thinking individual would allow folks to stack them to suit their need. But pre-made stacks are doable also. No reason we couldn't offer the choice.
It'll have to wait until next week, sometime. But I'll see what I can do to get them to Shapeways. Like I've said, I've never done anything with them before. So I'll have to do some learnin'. :scared:
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Peteski,
The actual size of these are 3/8 x 3/16 x 3/16. Hollowing them out wouldn't save much material.
When you compare the resin volume of a solid to a hollow block then a hollow one will sure save relatively plenty of material. Especially when someone needs 100 of those blocks. But whatever... :|
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Why I made mine.
At US$5.00 sounds cheap however we have a high exchange rate. So when we purchase From the USA from here in OZ we have to add 30 cents in the dollar plus US$15.00 to post plus 30 cents in the dollar on top of that postage cost you might see why we make some stuff.
When I made mine, some I did not saw (with the razor saw) all the way through, just scored around the styrene, on some I did cut through. On some of those that I didn't I snapped them apart to give me a rough end.
Here are some that I have made.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
Just another way.
Rod.
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When you compare the resin volume of a solid to a hollow block then a hollow one will sure save relatively plenty of material. Especially when someone needs 100 of those blocks. But whatever... :|
Well, I can give it a try. So what's a safe wall thickness for this type of printing/material? Anyone know? Don't want them to be fragile.
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@GimpLizard for FXD and FUD the min wall is 0.3mm. I like to make mine 0.31 and watch it those chamfers may cause issues with the wall or shell operations and play havoc with the printability.
Shapeways allows hollow parts but there must be exit holes on the bottom for the printing fluid to escape. The min "escape" hole must be 2mm dia.
@peteski is correct- this will save both printing time and material volume.
Also if you have the capability in your cad tool of creating multiple copies (duplication) spaced at least 1mm apart, you can upload this as a single model, but there are vat size limits. the CAD tools in the software can be very helpful, I have found.
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Okay, I hollowed out the Lock-Blocks. 0.31mm walls. And a 2.0mm hole in the bottom. The volume went from .013 c.i. down to .004 c.i. So that's almost 70% less material. Significant, for sure.
[attach=1][attach=2]
Now, does anybody know what the max build size is at Shapeways? I can get 50 of them (5 rows of 10) in about 2-1/2 x 3-1/2".
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You may first have a problem with minimum size.
Jason
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Okay, I hollowed out the Lock-Blocks. 0.31mm walls. And a 2.0mm hole in the bottom. The volume went from .013 c.i. down to .004 c.i. So that's almost 70% less material. Significant, for sure.
Now, does anybody know what the max build size is at Shapeways? I can get 50 of them (5 rows of 10) in about 2-1/2 x 3-1/2".
That is quite a bit of savings on material. The way I envisioned this was to leave the entire bottom open except for the corners (which would be left protruding enough to interlock with the bottom block. Then add a cross brace in the middle to prevent bowing of the sides. I'm also not sure if going with 0.31mm wall thickness is actually going a bit too far (making these blocks too delicate and possibly prone to warping or bowing,. Maybe the walls should be a bit thicker? Like 0.5mm? That should still save on the material cost but make the blocks sturdier.
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Or... you could buy an existing commercial product, or.... you could easily make them out of strip styrene... :P
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Or... you could buy an existing commercial product, or.... you could easily make them out of strip styrene... :P
Yeah, but that's no fun. It's much more fun to discuss new ways to make this item until we pretty much exhausted all the possibilities. :P
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Believe me, I am all for inventing ways to make a solution more complicated than necessary :D
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@peteski My generator walls are 0.31 thick and show no signs of delicacy or warpage.
@GimpLizard. I was going to add earlier that you may want to consider making the bottom pockets a little larger than the top locators so that there will never be a gap between the blocks wnen stacked.
Load the model to shapeways and use the 3d tools to look at the design rules for each material. I find this very helpful.
@wcfn100 I have found that multi models count for min size.
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@wcfn100 I have found that multi models count for min size.
Maybe it's just FXD but I've had files fail the minimum bounding box even though there were multiple parts which together were more than enough. I've also had files I've previously printed fine now fail because one of the parts fails the minimum.
Jason
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@peteski My generator walls are 0.31 thick and show no signs of delicacy or warpage.
Good to know - you know more about this than :)I do.
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@GimpLizard. I was going to add earlier that you may want to consider making the bottom pockets a little larger than the top locators so that there will never be a gap between the blocks wnen stacked.
I thought of that. And did make the bottom pockets slightly (5%) bigger. But the more I think about it, might not need pockets at all. Maybe just cross shaped holes. do you know if Shapeways requires the hole on the bottom to be round? Or just anything that will allow the uncured resin to escape?
Oh, by the way... Scott? Don't be a kill joy. We're men. We don't do nothing the easy way. :D
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Nope, I think that is nothing but a min opening for fluid to escape. Opening the bottom crosses makes sense and will save some material.
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Nope, I think that is nothing but a min opening for fluid to escape. Opening the bottom crosses makes sense and will save some material.
Thanks. Back to the drawing board, then.
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Follow up news on the lock-block.
I did some web searching and managed to find a couple of makers of these block. That, in and of itself, is not so interesting. What IS interesting is that one of them, elite Precast in the U.K., (http://www.eliteprecast.co.uk/technical-drawings/) has dimensioned drawings for their blocks. And they have a number of different styles & sizes. So, I'm in the process of modeling a few of them. I'm starting with the "Legato" series, as they seem to be the most popular. And I'm going to do a couple different sizes. I'll keep you all posted.
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Okay, here's the latest models.
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3][attach=4]
The dimensions of the full size blocks are (small) 400mm x 800mm x 800mm; (medium) 800 x 800 x800; and (large) 1200 x 800 x 800. The actual sizes are: small = .098 x .197 x .197; med = .197 x .197 x .197; lrg = .297 x .197 x .197. The wall thickness of these models is .31mm. The volumes are: small = .0016in^3; med = .0024in^3; lrg = .0033in^3. As the bottom view of the small block shows, there are square holes in the same location as the square "cones" (can you have square cones?) on the top.
Now to see if I can figure my way around Shapeways.
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Well, I guess they could be described as square cones, although I don't remember ever seeing the term. It's easier to say than "truncated pyramids"...
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Well, none of those look like these. These are the ones that are the most popular, around here at least, and the ones I would like to have. GimpLizard, you were working on these at the beginning. Are you still planning to do them with Shapeways?
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5713/22624964184_21cf541040_m.jpg)
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So when did these things start getting popular? Were they around in the 80s?
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From the research that I did, I believe they were first produced in 1984.
Doug
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We use these at work, often as temporary road blocks on job sites. I made a model for these last year. I am building a concrete plant where they will be used as walls for the agregate storage area.
They didn't make it to Shapeways (yet). I wanted to make complete walls with these so I drew solid blocks, then stacked them to form the wall I wanted and hollowed out the entire wall. Trouble is that I am not sure about what size I need. I then made a set of these blocks separately to get past that hurdle.
I had to fix some issues with that model and re-uploaded those just now after reading about it here. I set them as viewable for the public: http://shpws.me/LExk
That is quite a bit of savings on material. The way I envisioned this was to leave the entire bottom open except for the corners (which would be left protruding enough to interlock with the bottom block. Then add a cross brace in the middle to prevent bowing of the sides. I'm also not sure if going with 0.31mm wall thickness is actually going a bit too far (making these blocks too delicate and possibly prone to warping or bowing,. Maybe the walls should be a bit thicker? Like 0.5mm? That should still save on the material cost but make the blocks sturdier.
I made the walls 0.5mm thick. 0.3 is the absolute minimum and makes the walls too fragile for my liking, although it can be done. Just like you I'm worried about any deformation of the block because it will show up if you stack these things.
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So when did these things start getting popular? Were they around in the 80s?
I still have the CAD models I did earlier. So I could still make them available. Neither of the two I've shown so far are common around here. What I've seen, in this part of the country, are more like these "Vee" blocks: http://www.eliteprecast.co.uk/interlocking-precast-concrete-blocks/vee-interlocking-concrete-blocks/?show-drawings. Which I also plan to model.
But I wanted to do these things to scale. that's why I started a web search for lock-blocks. When I came up with the drawings from Elite Precast I figured I hit the jackpot. But I'm starting to rethink this whole thing. These block, as individuals, are really tiny. Roughly 3/32 x 3/16 x 3/16 in N-scale. It might make more sense to make assembled sections. But then the question becomes; how many blocks per section? I'm sure the needs will vary. so I'm kinda stuck an how best to proceed.
Thoughts?
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GimpLizard:
Here is a link to the photos and dimensions, including CAD files, of a large number of various lock block configurations. The one I want is called the "Standard". 1:1 dimensions are 2.5' x 2.5' x 5' which translates to 0.1875" x 0.1875" x 0.375" or 3/16" x 3/16" x 3/8" in N-Scale.
http://www.ultrablock.com/ultrablock_004.htm
Is the "Standard" size doable for you in N-Scale?
Doug
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From the research that I did, I believe they were first produced in 1984.
Doug
Hmmm. Just barely my era, but probably not enough to be as widespread as today. Damn.
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GimpLizard:
Here is a link to the photos and dimensions, including CAD files, of a large number of various lock block configurations. The one I want is called the "Standard". 1:1 dimensions are 2.5' x 2.5' x 5' which translates to 0.1875" x 0.1875" x 0.375" or 3/16" x 3/16" x 3/8" in N-Scale.
http://www.ultrablock.com/ultrablock_004.htm
Is the "Standard" size doable for you in N-Scale?
Doug
That was one of the sites I found during my search. But I couldn't get any of the CAD, or PDF, files to open. Though they seem to be working now.
These blocks are significantly large that the ones from the other site. Though they're still awfully tiny in N-scale. The standard size is .154" x .154" x .308".
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That was one of the sites I found during my search. But I couldn't get any of the CAD, or PDF, files to open. Though they seem to be working now.
These blocks are significantly large that the ones from the other site. Though they're still awfully tiny in N-scale. The standard size is .154" x .154" x .308".
If you re-check my post, you will see that the actual N-Scale dimensions for the Standard block are provided. Also, the 1:1 dimensions are shown in the PDF file and that's where the N-Scale dimensions come from. Your measurements are definitely smaller than the proper ones.
Doug
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The standard size over here is 800mm wide and 800mm high. The length and width is 400mm per "pyramid", i.e. a block with 4x2 pyramids is 800x1600mm. These dimensions are very easy to convert to N Scale (if you work in mm).
http://www.legioblock.com/en/
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I had my blocks (link (http://shpws.me/LExk)) printed, the little plastic guys started construction on the sand and gravel storage for the concrete plant:
(https://images2.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_4368005_15076285_1459680215.jpg)
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Has GimpLizard given up on his plan to 3D print the Standard Lock Block we spoke about a few months ago? I certainly hope not as I need quite a few of them.
Doug