TheRailwire
General Discussion => DCC / Electronics => Topic started by: bbussey on September 17, 2015, 12:01:35 PM
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With all of the turnout points I have to automate, I'm exploring whether or not going to a touch screen and JMRI is a more viable option. It would seem to me that in the digital environment, it would be much easier to make additions and corrections to an already-operating panel. I've already experienced having to modify my physical main panel twice – once by totally redoing the top plate with drilling new holes and re-mounting toggles and LEDS, and the other time just adding "addendum" routes to a blank area of the board so that I didn't have to redo the plate a third time. As I get most of the track in place, I already see where I may want to add an additional turnout or two down the road.
I've done some research on the touch screens and found sources that supply reasonably-priced 32" wide screens (and wider) with USB interface and single or multiple touch points. Can anyone direct me to a reference on:
- Does the touch screen require multiple touch points or is one touch point sufficient, given that only?
- Creating the image (or converting an existing one) to appear on the touch screen
- Interfacing the touch screen points with JMRI
- Interfacing the Tam Valley controllers that animate the servos connected to the turnout points
I have one analog control panel now that I'm not looking forward to finishing the analog wiring on. Currently, I have the main power on/off, accessory bus on/off, standard/program track toggle and one double-crossover wired, with a couple-dozen more points and dozens of LEDs left to wire. I will have at least two more control panels for other main areas. I would prefer to have everything digital in order to make future additions less of a chore. Thanks.
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Keep us posted, Bryan! JMRI, touch screens, Tam Valley + servos - this is exactly the direction I'm going. Nice to have somebody else volunteer to do the debugging first. :D
Seriously... replacing a hard-wired panel this way on an existing layout is the stuff that Model Railroader articles are made from. I wish I could be more help, but lack the know-how on the panel side of JMRI to be anything more than a cheering section.
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I've been experimenting on a variation of this approach. In my application, I'm looking for a series of smaller panels around the layout. With JMRI's web serving capabilities, I'm trying cheap tablets. The tablets have the advantage that you don't have to do cable runs from a central computer; they just need power and a wifi connection. So far, the approach seems promising. JMRI serves up a web page that looks and acts just like any panel you're running in Panel Pro, so development and integration with JMRI is easy. The only thing to watch for is that the buttons on your panels are big enough that they can be hit reliably with model railroader-sized fingers. ;)
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@eric220 – I also will be using a series of panels around the layout. Two of them will be roughly 30"x12", while the third and future panels will be smaller. I don't mind running USB lines to a central location since everything will be under-table. Please explain further (or point me to where I may learn) about the JMRI web pages and the Panel Pro application. It would seem that Panel Pro would be my first step in converting my existing artwork.
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Be careful on length of USB cables. It's not a particularly robust standard for long hauls. I'll probably need to be wi-fi to any subpanels.
I'm with Eric about the JMRI web implementation on tablets. Definitely an opportunity for cost savings there by using older iPads.
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Be careful on length of USB cables. It's not a particularly robust standard for long hauls. I'll probably need to be wi-fi to any subpanels.
I'm with Eric about the JMRI web implementation on tablets. Definitely an opportunity for cost savings there by using older iPads.
I've found USB 32"x12" touch screens for $125. They have hard-wire versions as well.
Just reviewed the Panel Pro web pages. Seems that it has its own graphics and you can't use your own. I want to have my own graphics, so I have to learn how to display that dynamic image and integrate that with JMRI apparently.
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@bbussey - The web server is stupidly easy to use. Under preferences:Web Servrer, specify the port you want to use on your computer to serve the web pages (and any other configuration options you want). Next, go to the debug menu and select "start JMRI web server". Finally, point a web browser connected at the server ip:port number, and select the panel that you want to view. What you should see is an exact replica of the panel in your web browser that functions exactly like the panel in Panel Pro. Clicks are transmitted to Panel Pro, and the server drives the appropriate actions.
In re-reading your post, I realized that I may have made an incorrect assumption. I presumed that you already had some familiarity with JMRI, but it seems like that's not the case. Assuming that you're just getting your feet wet with JMRI (or for any spectators who are), Panel Pro is the application within JMRI that is used to create the control panels. It does have a learning curve, especially if you want to do some of the more advanced functions like automated train running. The best place to start to get some familiarization with the application is here:
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/apps/PanelPro/PanelPro.shtml
There are links to clinics that walk you up to the level of coding a CTC panel that actually follows CTC rules. I'd recommend following the presentations and actually building some of the practice panels.
Seems that it has its own graphics and you can't use your own. I want to have my own graphics, so I have to learn how to display that dynamic image and integrate that with JMRI apparently.
Oh no, you can include custom graphics. I actually created a set of PRR style position light signals. I also made custom turnout indicators so that the track diagram shows the state of the turnouts. The trick is to put the custom files in the program's support folders along with the default graphics.
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I just finished reading the PanelPro page in the JMRI site, and also skimmed the Quaker Valley PDFs on setting up a panel. I don't expect this to be an easy learning experience. But learning and applying it will make things much easier for me going forward.
I did see that it is possible to add your own graphics. So I will have to play with it some and see what's what. If I could import an existing graphic, it would be helpful, but I am prepare to redraw the panel if necessary. I've downloaded the JMRI install, so it's a matter of playing with it for a while.
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I just finished reading the PanelPro page in the JMRI site, and also skimmed the Quaker Valley PDFs on setting up a panel. I don't expect this to be an easy learning experience.
this from the guy who figured out how to get quality production out of Shapeways . . . . :facepalm:
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In all seriousness @bbussey it looks like someone may have figured it out:
https://www.facebook.com/modelcraftsman (https://www.facebook.com/modelcraftsman)
https://www.facebook.com/ritmrc/photos/a.530510203704648.1073741844.393931700695833/867810953307903/?type=1&fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/ritmrc/photos/a.530510203704648.1073741844.393931700695833/867810953307903/?type=1&fref=nf)
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My HO club just uses "old" hand-me-down tablets. We have a bunch of original iPads and various Android tablets being used as control panels.
Much better than point of sale monitors— because the tablets connect to JMRI over WiFi and we don't have to futz with USB cables between everything. We just use USB cables to keep the tablets charged up.
-Dave
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@bbussey -- spend 10 minutes to watch this video .. Bob is a great guy and has been working this exact problem .. he is also on the jmri list ..
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There's another option in JMRI for control panels. It lacks some of the finer features of the Panel Pro output, which will display which train is in a block with proper sensors and programming, but that's a digression.
If you want a panel that looks similar to many hardware panels on traditional model rrs, you can use the "layout editor" feature and draw one. The graphics are somewhat limited, but you can change them within limits. The panel for my staging yard is like that.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/atx0k7c57uubiyz/Staging15.xml?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/atx0k7c57uubiyz/Staging15.xml?dl=0)
I find that using the JMRI web server and wifi, my 10" gen 2 iPad can operate the turnouts and routes very well. Just touch the red button sensor, and all the turnout to that track align automatically, then the green indicator "lights" up to indicate the route is ready.
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Forgot to mention....
The PanelPro files (JMRI files) are html. Your computer will try to open them with a browser. I didn't write all that html code, JMRI did that when i drew the panel. Anyway, download my dropbox file to your computer, open PanelPro, and tell it to open a new panel, select the dropbox file and it should display for you.
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I am implementing basically the same setup that Eric describes. Once you get past the basics of web serving and panel setup, it is really easy to go to town. This definitely beats analog panels, as long as you have DCC turnout control set up from the beginning.
I'm guessing my use of tablets will evolve to the point that they travel with the operator and serve as a throttle, control panel interface (you can call up any local panel that jmri is serving), signal repeater, switch list server, and even a display for onboard video feeds. :lol:
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... download my dropbox file to your computer, open PanelPro, and tell it to open a new panel, select the dropbox file and it should display for you.
No joy here. It wants sensor object definitions, and throws an error on every sensor (don't know what else might be wrong, I give up after 30 or 40 clicks clearing error dialogs):
[attachimg=1]
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In all seriousness @bbussey it looks like someone may have figured it out:
https://www.facebook.com/modelcraftsman (https://www.facebook.com/modelcraftsman)
https://www.facebook.com/ritmrc/photos/a.530510203704648.1073741844.393931700695833/867810953307903/?type=1&fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/ritmrc/photos/a.530510203704648.1073741844.393931700695833/867810953307903/?type=1&fref=nf)
I will start playing with Panel Pro. If it is HTML, then I should be able to make it look the way I want.
@bbussey -- spend 10 minutes to watch this video .. Bob is a great guy and has been working this exact problem .. he is also on the jmri list ..
John, the video definitely is interesting. I'm not going to do the Engine Driver control from cell phones or tablets. But I will try to get the web interface running. First step is to learn Panel Pro and see if it will do what I want it to do.
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Be careful on length of USB cables. It's not a particularly robust standard for long hauls. I'll probably need to be wi-fi to any subpanels.
I'm with Eric about the JMRI web implementation on tablets. Definitely an opportunity for cost savings there by using older iPads.
Looks like I can install USB 3.0 wireless for any USB touch panels over 3 meters away from the computer. The main panel will be well within that distance. I will make sure to install USB 3.0 ports in whatever spare workstation I decide to use as the layout computer. The question now is can I use the touch panels as web browsers, since the easiest PanelPro interface appears to be through its web server.
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One possible thing I see against this setup is is if operators can accidentally exit or minimize the browser window or accidentally hit some button or area of the screen which will mess things up (exit the panel view or lock it uo somehow). If you have an operating session with bunch of people then trust me - this will happen. Unless all of your operators are intimately familiar with JMRI, PanelPro and tablets in general, those accidental screw-ups will be frustrating the the operators and to you (since you will have to go over and fix things).
That is why either systems with touch panels running dedicated software (which only responds to the touches for controlling things displayed on the panel - doesn't allow exiting to another level of operating system) or even the old-fashion hardwired control panels are the ones which provide the most positive and hassle-free experience during an operating session.
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That is why either systems with touch panels running dedicated software (which only responds to the touches for controlling things displayed on the panel - doesn't allow exiting to another level of operating system) or even the old-fashion hardwired control panels are the ones which provide the most positive and hassle-free experience during an operating session.
FWIW, the iPad has a "guided access" mode (originally designed for school kids) is also useful:
http://www.webascender.com/Blog/ID/447/How-to-Setup-Kiosk-Mode-Lock-Your-iPad-to-Just-One-App
-Dave
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I'm with Pete. On my S.F.R.S.D CTC panels I have stayed with the old toggle system on the panels. On the town panels we installed momentary toggles for the main line turnouts that are also controlled by the CTC panel. The siding toggles stayed as they were. The dispatcher has full control so the engineers only have to run their train and follow the signals. Once they get to the town they need to switch, they call up the dispatcher so he can give them approval to throw the turnouts the old fashion way for the areas they need to go. Once they complete their task they call the dispatcher and he then sets the turnouts and signals and gives them clearance to depart. With the car cards we use plus controlling their train the engineers have enough to think about IMO. I have been operating for many years and guys get tired. Just a thought.
Rod.
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Sorry it didn't work for you, Peteski.
I just checked it out to make sure it works, so it must be my settings are different. I have exerienced the endless error messages before as you describe. Very frustrating that you have to click for every sensor instead of having a button to apply your click selection to ALL.
Anyway, you shouldn't have to download the file again. Try this:
Open JMRI
Select PanelPro
Click Edit
Click Preferences
Under Connections in the left menu, enter Digitrax and Loconet Simulator in the boxes.
Click Save
Then try opening the downloaded file under Load Panels.
Hope it works for you this time. It just did for me, and I made sure it wasn't opening one of my internal files -- just the one I downloaded from dropbox.
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That was me, Bill. I was trying with a virgin download of the current production JMRI, so hopefully it wasn't something required I didn't do.
When I get back home - futzing with insulation at the train palace at the moment - I'll try it with your procedure.
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Thanks, Bill. It was "Connections" - it needed a network to assert object links.
Looks nice. Good starting point for playing with JMRI panel ops. Thanks!
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Web server is very impressive. The browser display was even better (under Safari) than the native PanelPro display. It was interesting to watch the controls update when clicked from the other screen. I couldn't get it to run in my Firefox, but I do have Javascript and other executables locked-down and would expect it to barf.
I could not get the browser interface to work correctly on a v1.0 iPad - slow to display, redraws didn't work for beans, and controls didn't work. However, on my iPhone5/IOS 7.1 it was flawless. Apparently there is a minimum host software support level... anybody happen to know the minimum IOS the browser page will run on? Couldn't find anything in the JMRI info.
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Okay!
Thrilled that it works for you, and that I was able to contribute something of use to the forum.
It is cool to see the JMRI on the host computer update turnouts and indicator lights when you click on a remote panel on another device. Also cool to see the real layout turnouts move and the train follow the commanded path. I'm liking this more and more as I go along.
And this panel has been way easier to update and modify than a physical panel with hard switches and wiring, and painted tracks. Not to mention that each of the tracks on this diagram will display red when the block is occupied. Eventually, I hope to have them also display yellow when a train has clearance to use a track but hasn't arrived there yet, then go on the have JMRI run some scheduled trains while I and a friend run locals.
It's all in JMRI, I just haven't learned how to use it yet.
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Didn't mention before, but I think even if you plan to design a CTC-style panel with US&S controls displayed on it, it is probably a good idea to draw a diagram of the layout in Layout Editor like I did. That's what tells JMRI what blocks are connected and where. Not sure the diagrams on the CTC panel will allow that kind of programming. The ramps at the sides of this diagram will also be shown on the visible track level diagram to show connections there.
Before I get into that, I need to design some sort of track plan for the scenicked portion of my layout. So far, I have laid the tracks shown on the diagram. Next is to continue the ramps at the top around the room where they will meet in a single track along the wall at the bottom, above the track shown. There will be turnouts from that single track onto the visible parts of the layout.
All the DS64s, BDL168s, and PSXs are in 3 drawers under the staging yard (2) and the return loop (1) at the bottom of the diagram, with room for more as I get into the scenicked trackage.
Wish me luck!
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Mike, am I confusing you with someone else, or do you live in NW Fla.? I bought a switcher from you at a swap meet in Milton, if you are who I think you are.
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Nope... not I. This thread (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=26087.0) will reveal entirely too many personal details about me. :scared:
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Okay!
And this panel has been way easier to update and modify than a physical panel with hard switches and wiring, and painted tracks. Not to mention that each of the tracks on this diagram will display red when the block is occupied. Eventually, I hope to have them also display yellow when a train has clearance to use a track but hasn't arrived there yet, then go on the have JMRI run some scheduled trains while I and a friend run locals.
all the things you want to do, JMRI can do .. there is also a program called CATS that runs under JMRI, that will allow you to put clearance to a block, just like you want .its a bit easier (once you get the hang of it) to set up a cool panel ..
btw @bbussey .. for remote panels, JMRI supports TCP over loconet .. so you could put cheap wireless tablets at the locations you want and will update from the master JMRI computer ..
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Dumb question: how do you connect the tablet to Loconet? I've just been using wifi.
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Dumb question: how do you connect the tablet to Loconet? I've just been using wifi.
thats how you do it Gary ..
I should have said to another laptop vice tablet .. you run jmri on both devices .. but you start the server on the master .. and for connection on the other laptop, you just select loconetovertbp lb server .. It should work with MAC, i suppose if you could get linux or windows on a tab, you could get it to run there also .. for tablets, you have to use the web server .. which I haven't done
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No one offers tablets with screens as large and inexpensive as I want. I need to see if it's possible to use the USB touch screens as a display and input source.
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No one offers tablets with screens as large and inexpensive as I want. I need to see if it's possible to use the USB touch screens as a display and input source.
It would add to the cost about $30-$50 (if you can get a good sale) per panel, but you could try using a Raspberry PI with a wi-fi dongle connected to the USB touch panel. Or maybe a USB hub with a master Pi. That would take some custom code though.
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Amazon has a new 7" tablet coming out with decent resolution and a good processor. They are doing an initial sale where you can get 6 for $250. I think I'll buy a 6pack for our club has I am the only one willing to solder control panels together and it's killing me :ashat:
http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Display-Wi-Fi-GB-Special/dp/B00TSUGXKE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1442690644&sr=8-1&keywords=fire+7%22
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It would add to the cost about $30-$50 (if you can get a good sale) per panel, but you could try using a Raspberry PI with a wi-fi dongle connected to the USB touch panel. Or maybe a USB hub with a master Pi. That would take some custom code though.
I've got a quote on $145 for 32"x12" USB touch panels. An additional $50 per to make them smart is not a deal-breaker.
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Where did you find the 32" touchscreens?
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@bbussey if you want some help with setting up Linux on the Rasp Pis, etc. let me know. This is entering my area of expertise. Now, if you want help with Windows or Mac, I won't be able to assist you :D
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bbussey if you want some help with setting up Linux on the Rasp Pis, etc. let me know. This is entering my area of expertise. Now, if you want help with Windows or Mac, I won't be able to assist you :D
@Iain – John, I definitely will keep that in mind. The workstation doesn't have to be Windows, I'm open to it being Linux. I have minimal Linux exposure, but I do have Unix experience to help me skate through. In addition, the logic used to set up PIs on Linux can be referenced for setting them up in Windows.
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@Iain – John, I definitely will keep that in mind. The workstation doesn't have to be Windows, I'm open to it being Linux. I have minimal Linux exposure, but I do have Unix experience to help me skate through. In addition, the logic used to set up PIs on Linux can be referenced for setting them up in Windows.
Except the Pis won't run Windows, because they're ARM.
(as it happens, I know a thing or two about ARM, having worked on the kernel on 64 bit ARM at Red Hat, and also much work with 32 bit ARM on my own time)
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Except the Pis won't run Windows, because they're ARM.
(as it happens, I know a thing or two about ARM, having worked on the kernel on 64 bit ARM at Red Hat, and also much work with 32 bit ARM on my own time)
But there is the Windows 10 IoT "thing"... http://ms-iot.github.io/content/en-US/GetStarted.htm
I don't know much about it since I don't do Windows much. I'm a Mac/OpenVMS/Linux/Solaris guy.
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But there is the Windows 10 IoT "thing"...
Isn't that ID 10-t?
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I'm open to a Unix or Linux platform. The operating system is the least of my concerns. The primary question is whether or not the large USB touch panels can be used with JMRI.
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I have to admit, I'm a card carrying member of the Free Software Foundation, so for me, the OS is very important :)